NJ Recalls

[OPECJet]

Airlines weren't forced into squat. They could have stalled negotiations almost indefinitely. No mediator was going to release a legacy carrier.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Not so much oil $25/brl 2000, $30/brl 2002. Airlines like GM were forced into contracts they knew they could not sustain. The first class passenger that was the back bone of their profit had been replaced by the internet price shopper. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity.

I know when we launched Independence Air oil was north of $85 per barrel. That was the same year UAL went BK. NWA and DAL were afterwards.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Back on topic I'm doubling down on recalls in 2015.

 

[pilotyip]

Airlines weren't forced into squat. They could have stalled negotiations almost indefinitely. No mediator was going to release a legacy carrier.

I am sure you truly believe that, and that is fine.

 

[pilotyip]

I know when we launched Independence Air oil was north of $85 per barrel. That was the same year UAL went BK. NWA and DAL were afterwards.

Not according to what I see here

2003​

January $29.44 July $27.39 February $32.13 August $28.33 March $30.26 September $25.14 April $25.22 October $27.07 May $23.61 November $27.66 June $27.23 December $28.83 2003 Average $27.69

didn't see $85 until late 2007

2007​

January $46.53 July $65.96 February $51.36 August $64.23 March $52.64 September $70.94 April $56.08 October $77.56 May $55.43 November $86.92 June $59.25 December $83-46 2007 Average $64.25

http://www.ioga.com/Special/crudeoil_Hist.htm check it out

 

[gunfyter]

A little thing called 911 didn't affect the airline biz did it?

That was the union's fault I guess

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Not according to what I see here

2003​

January $29.44 July $27.39 February $32.13 August $28.33 March $30.26 September $25.14 April $25.22 October $27.07 May $23.61 November $27.66 June $27.23 December $28.83 2003 Average $27.69

didn't see $85 until late 2007

2007​

January $46.53 July $65.96 February $51.36 August $64.23 March $52.64 September $70.94 April $56.08 October $77.56 May $55.43 November $86.92 June $59.25 December $83-46 2007 Average $64.25

http://www.ioga.com/Special/crudeoil_Hist.htm check it out

These might be monthly averages. I can distinctly remember KS & TM referencing $85 oil in 2005 when IDE declared BK. The labor contracts were not the underlying reasons for legacy airline Ch11s in the 2000s. That is patently false.

 

[imacdog]

I am sure you truly believe that, and that is fine.

So when was the last time it happened?

 

[OPECJet]

Those airlines willingly signed contracts they could afford at the time of signing. Lost revenue from 9/11, rising LCCs, higher operating costs, "shrink to profitability" etc were responsible for airline losses.

The RLA gives airline labor little recourse when management doesn't want to play. Those airlines could have drug negotiations out for years paying lip service to keep the job actions down. It's happened before.

 

[pilotyip]

Those airlines willingly signed contracts they could afford at the time of signing. Lost revenue from 9/11, rising LCCs, higher operating costs, "shrink to profitability" etc were responsible for airline losses.

The RLA gives airline labor little recourse when management doesn't want to play. Those airlines could have drug negotiations out for years paying lip service to keep the job actions down. It's happened before.

They could not put up with the pilot's tactics of cancelling flights due the second filament of the Lav in Use light being burn out, calling in sick, etc. It was driving pax away in droves. The contracts put them in a cost structure that was not sustainable. SWA, Airtran continued hiring after 9-1, why there cost structures that were sustainable. So go ahead push the NJ managment for industry leading compensation package, Oh! you already have one. After all what could go wrong.

BTW If things go south, JUS could be hiring send me a resume, your furloughees are doing just fine here..

A little thing called 911 didn't affect the airline biz did it?

That was the union's fault I guess

9-11 was the perfect storm, the recession had started about six months before, we saw our business levels drop significantly from the previous year, showing a slow down in manufacturing. Even before 9-11 airlines had started delaying class dates. How would I know this because some of our pilots ask to stay on after giving notice,. Then 9-11 pulled the rug out. The old airline model of living off the profit of the first class passenger was dead and the cost structure built around that model was an airline terminal disease. Maybe a little bit like the NJ model, only time will tell.

I agree with you in that you are worth what you negotiate. However, our difference is in who is doing the negotiating. If I and my employer negotiate, the result will satisfy both sides, no problem. When the union (and to be fair NJA's union is a pretty reasonable group) negotiates, it has the power collectively to inflict severe damage on the employer, sometimes resulting in compensation that is too high to be able to compete long term. In this case, the result of the negotiations is not satisfactory for both sides, as the company is just trying to stave off major damage threatened by the union. I hope NJASAP never bargains that hard.
I want to make a lot of money, but not if it beggars the company and the stockholders. if it does, we will lose our jobs, which is a bad thing.

This guy gets it.

BTWII I really do wish you the best, but I am reminded of my union days where the activists promised "more pay and more days off", until of course you had no pay and all your days off. I get real nervous about teasing the Tiger know as a job.

 

[imacdog]

BTWII I really do wish you the best, but I am reminded of my union days where the activists promised "more pay and more days off", until of course you had no pay and all your days off. I get real nervous about teasing the Tiger know as a job.

And that is why you have had a career of mediocre paying jobs.

 

[jetlag7]

At first blush, it would appear there are TWO schools of thought here. However, when you boil down all the arguments - you're left with pretty much the same objective....

We all want LONG and Prosperous careers.

The company will do everything they can to purchase our services for as little cost as possible. Our union negotiators will bargain for the best possible compensation package the company can afford.

The membership gets to decide what is acceptable with their vote.

 

[OPECJet]

They could not put up with the pilot's tactics of cancelling flights due the second filament of the Lav in Use light being burn out, calling in sick, etc. It was driving pax away in droves. The contracts put them in a cost structure that was not sustainable. SWA, Airtran continued hiring after 9-1, why there cost structures that were sustainable. So go ahead push the NJ managment for industry leading compensation package, Oh! you already have one. After all what could go wrong.

BTW If things go south, JUS could be hiring send me a resume, your furloughees are doing just fine here..



9-11 was the perfect storm, the recession had started about six months before, we saw our business levels drop significantly from the previous year, showing a slow down in manufacturing. Even before 9-11 airlines had started delaying class dates. How would I know this because some of our pilots ask to stay on after giving notice,. Then 9-11 pulled the rug out. The old airline model of living off the profit of the first class passenger was dead and the cost structure built around that model was an airline terminal disease. Maybe a little bit like the NJ model, only time will tell.


This guy gets it.

BTWII I really do wish you the best, but I am reminded of my union days where the activists promised "more pay and more days off", until of course you had no pay and all your days off. I get real nervous about teasing the Tiger know as a job.

I've been in the inner-workings of ALPA and have seen how it operates. National is not going to push for more than the airline can afford. The caveat being is the phrase "at the time". Markets change. What is affordable to an airline this month can be deadly the next. The reverse holds true as well. The preachings we received were to get as much as we could for our pilots, but always allow the airline to grow. Growth requires profit. None of us had any problem with management making astronomical sums of money as long as they were getting the job done. Hell, we wanted the highest paid management, we just wanted them to earn their money. If they're earning their money, it means the seniority list is growing, aircraft are being added, upgrades and hiring is occurring. All good things.

Job actions occur. Sometimes they're necessary. The RLA allows the company to remain under the status quo indefinitely. In many cases this is OK while the company and management work out a CBA. Then you have cases such as ASA, Republic, Pinnacle, NJA, etc where negotiations have stalled. The company needs a kick in the backside as a mediator isn't going to release them.

I'm glad to hear our furloughed guys have found a good place to be. I had 2 in my indoc class from JUS and both spoke highly of the place. I used to spend hours sitting on the Active Aero site bidding trips, and then hopping in an airplane if the bid was accepted. Fun times, but not something compatible with my current family life. The offer is genuinely appreciated, however.

 

[nordo_2]

Its called seeking the middle way. Problems arise when there is an imbalance. One extreme or the other. Management, if allowed unchecked will have us work 20 hour days, 30 days a month. Some are really bad. The exceptions are ok.

NJ has the extreme on the bad side of this scale. JH is in place to solely gut and/or destroy the CBA. In order to keep what they have, the union will have to re-act in kind.
Any improvements will require extraordinary confrontation. Once the new contract is finished, JH will move on.

 

[johnsonrod]

Any update on fleet replacements at Netjets?

Slightly different topic...


I recently saw one of your new Phenom 300s - pretty cool airplane. How many new Phenom 300s this year? What's the annual Phenom delivery rate look like?

Any idea which fleets will be replaced first - I assume the Encore and Beechjet fleets sooner than later.... Is the Phenom expected to basically replace those two fleets over time?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Slightly different topic...


I recently saw one of your new Phenom 300s - pretty cool airplane. How many new Phenom 300s this year? What's the annual Phenom delivery rate look like?

Any idea which fleets will be replaced first - I assume the Encore and Beechjet fleets sooner than later.... Is the Phenom expected to basically replace those two fleets over time?

A half dozen-ish

A dozen-ish

Yes



By all accounts, selling well. Global and Phenom are replacement aircraft. No net fleet expansion in '13.

 

[G4dude]

Its called seeking the middle way. Problems arise when there is an imbalance. One extreme or the other. Management, if allowed unchecked will have us work 20 hour days, 30 days a month. Some are really bad. The exceptions are ok.

NJ has the extreme on the bad side of this scale. JH is in place to solely gut and/or destroy the CBA. In order to keep what they have, the union will have to re-act in kind.
Any improvements will require extraordinary confrontation. Once the new contract is finished, JH will move on.

Extreme bad side of the scale? I beg to differ.

 

[pilotyip]

And that is why you have had a career of mediocre paying jobs.

I am not sure how you get to pass judgment on what is mediocre. I don't consider the upper 5% of U.S wage earners as mediocre and to be paid that to do something I love to do, something I can't wait to get out of bed in the morning to do. I am truly blessed to be so lucky.

As stated before I got to live my childhood dream of being a Navy pilot, anything beyond that is well mediocre. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA, NJ level are very fortunate to be where they are, but there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.

 

[BentOver]

Hey YIP,

Have ya ever noticed that pretty much ALL the companies considered to be the elite jobs (DL, UPS, FDX, NJA, SWA etc) are Union jobs... Gee wonder why that is.....

The companies typically have problems because they are mis-managed in some form or another NOT the Unions or pilot salaries...

You can blame post 9/11 on high fuel costs, and in turn the need to reduce pilot salaries, but then scratch your head and wonder how SWA prospered so well post 9/11, with not only the highest 737 salaries but pretty much the highest salaries overall besides FDX/UPS... If you haven't figured it out, one of the main reasons SWA prospered was because of sound management decisions. Particularly great fuel hedges.

NJA is a top tier company, with great work rules and a decent salary.. In this time of economic turmoil, the company is still finding a way to turn a profit... And that's with a rookie "leader" who can't sell a used car to Bill down the road.. AND A UNION...

Again, sorry you had a less than stellar experience with your Union at ZANTOP.. But then again, if paying it's employees was enough to put it out of business maybe it's management was the problem and NOT the Union. Your anti-Union rhetoric gets old when your same "proof" is either the UAW or your prior careers decisions... Look at all the top companies, look at their salaries, and look to see if a large majority of them are Unionized...

Unions in aviation are necessary. Otherwise we'd all be pulling 14 hr duty days 6 days a week with as much min rest as possible, be crossing multiple time zones with no relief, have to eat stale peanuts all day. Reserves would be abused more than they typically are, there would be no commuting clauses, terrible non-rev benefits and we'd all be paying for our own uniforms, Jepps, and be staying at the worst flea bag motels possible..

Take a look at the benefits where you are, and then take a look at the benefits of pilots at NJA, Delta, SWA etc... Who do you think has a better life at work?

 

[OHGOON]

Hey YIP,

Have ya ever noticed that pretty much ALL the companies considered to be the elite jobs (DL, UPS, FDX, NJA, SWA etc) are Union jobs... Gee wonder why that is.....

The companies typically have problems because they are mis-managed in some form or another NOT the Unions or pilot salaries...

You can blame post 9/11 on high fuel costs, and in turn the need to reduce pilot salaries, but then scratch your head and wonder how SWA prospered so well post 9/11, with not only the highest 737 salaries but pretty much the highest salaries overall besides FDX/UPS... If you haven't figured it out, one of the main reasons SWA prospered was because of sound management decisions. Particularly great fuel hedges.

NJA is a top tier company, with great work rules and a decent salary.. In this time of economic turmoil, the company is still finding a way to turn a profit... And that's with a rookie "leader" who can't sell a used car to Bill down the road.. AND A UNION...

Again, sorry you had a less than stellar experience with your Union at ZANTOP.. But then again, if paying it's employees was enough to put it out of business maybe it's management was the problem and NOT the Union. Your anti-Union rhetoric gets old when your same "proof" is either the UAW or your prior careers decisions... Look at all the top companies, look at their salaries, and look to see if a large majority of them are Unionized...

Unions in aviation are necessary. Otherwise we'd all be pulling 14 hr duty days 6 days a week with as much min rest as possible, be crossing multiple time zones with no relief, have to eat stale peanuts all day. Reserves would be abused more than they typically are, there would be no commuting clauses, terrible non-rev benefits and we'd all be paying for our own uniforms, Jepps, and be staying at the worst flea bag motels possible..

Take a look at the benefits where you are, and then take a look at the benefits of pilots at NJA, Delta, SWA etc... Who do you think has a better life at work?

It doesn't matter to him. He has already lived his dream, landing on boats and doing "neat" things with a wife who supported him throughout...:0

He is the archetype of the big fish in a small pond...afraid to go for a swim in a bigger ocean or worse...if he can't have it, no one should.

 

[pilotyip]

It doesn't matter to him. He has already lived his dream, landing on boats and doing "neat" things with a wife who supported him throughout...:0

He is the archetype of the big fish in a small pond...afraid to go for a swim in a bigger ocean or worse...if he can't have it, no one should.

Your funny, you know I have played in all the big Oceans' N Atlantic, N & S Pacific, Indian. Even awarded the title of "Trusty Shell-back".

NJ is a good job, I turned it down because I could not take the pay cut, pay not that good in 1999. If I worked there now my biggest worry would be somebody screwing up a really good deal of a job. May you boat never sink in your bigger ocean.

 

[BentOver]

Lemme ask ya this YIP... What is your constant concern with NJA and it's Union... Or any good company and it's Union?

Seems to me if ya were so happy and content at your non-Union night freight gig you wouldn't give a crap about the fractional

 

[pilotyip]

Hey YIP,

Have ya ever noticed that pretty much ALL the companies considered to be the elite jobs (DL, UPS, FDX, NJA, SWA etc) are Union jobs... Gee wonder why that is.....
Take a look at the benefits where you are, and then take a look at the benefits of pilots at NJA, Delta, SWA etc... Who do you think has a better life at work?

This board is very pro-union. I don't think that I am that rabidly anti-union, but more middle of the road, some places need a union. The rabid union supporters stand on a platform that unions can do no harm. I just happen to not agree with that stance and it is my duty to point out the other side. Unions have the ability to destroy marginal companies.

When an airline gets to a certain size it almost needs a union in order for once voice to represent the pilots as opposed to individual splinter groups with their own agendas.

Pay and union representation as you posted do not necessarily go together. Fedex ALPA, flies 727, great pay, best in the business, Kitty Hawk ALPA, used to fly 727‘s, pay equal to JUS, plus they are out of business.

But immersed in this population, I stand out because I am not 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management. After about my fourth job, my main concern was the viability of my company and anything I could do make them more viable was my primary goal.

There are two sides to every story, both sides need to be told.

 

[BentOver]

I've got a news flash for you... The large majority of professional aviation is Union (atleast the professionals that can earn a good living).. So if this board seems pro Union it's because it represents a majority of the professionals in the business.

There is not an overabundance of Union raticals here.. In fact there seems to be very few.. what we do have is a select few like yourself that turn every thread into a soab box as to why Unions are ruining business.. Which in turn leads us into debates and name calling. Mostly because guys like G4 attempt to completely undermine every other pilot he works with and what they are trying to accomplish. Then again, free country blah blah, so you of course are entitled to your opinion and thread drift.

Take for example this thread about NJA recalls... I'm not going to read the whole thing to verify, but where in "NJA recalls" do we turn from that to Unions are ruining companies in aviation? I'm no Union die hard, but I do believe they are necessary in aviation.. There are just too many ways a pilot can get screwed without one.

 

[BentOver]

Pay and union representation as you posted do not necessarily go together. Fedex ALPA, flies 727, great pay, best in the business, Kitty Hawk ALPA, used to fly 727‘s, pay equal to JUS, plus they are out of business. Again, take a look at the management decisions and business plan. FedEx started by a Yale boy who wrote the model for a class. Professor gave him a poor grade, he kept the theory and eventually applied it. Adapted as necessary and ultimately survived... There are reasons that places like Southern Air furlough every other quarter. Poor planning, poor business decisions and poor execution. It sure ain't the pilots pay.

But immersed in this population, I stand out because I am not 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management. After about my fourth job, my main concern was the viability of my company and anything I could do make them more viable was my primary goal. I'm on my 6th job in 12 years.. After all that I still believe that a companies viability is important. But I'm not about to take it in the rear to make it happen. I view your rational as weak and scared.

There are two sides to every story, both sides need to be told.

.....

 

[OHGOON]

Your funny, you know I have played in all the big Oceans' N Atlantic, N & S Pacific, Indian. Even awarded the title of "Trusty Shell-back".

NJ is a good job, I turned it down because I could not take the pay cut, pay not that good in 1999. If I worked there now my biggest worry would be somebody screwing up a really good deal of a job. May you boat never sink in your bigger ocean.

Nice deflection, but I stand by what I posted. You have delusions of grandeur that you can somehow affect how a company is profitable by your behavior. The fact that you insult every pro union pilot by implying that all they want to do is hurt management never crosses your mind? Ever think that they are equally invested in making their job last as long as possible? The difference is that most pro union pilots firmly realize that by themselves they are vulnerable and only by working together in an organized group can they speak truth to management without automatically risking their livelihoods.

As far as you swimming in all great oceans, you know damn well what I meant! Enjoy your senior position, lickspitling your way into the good graces of your management hoping that one day they will recognize your superior talents and make you one of their own. Keep dreaming... they see you coming a mile away and they are laughing at you while using you for their own purposes. Big Fish in a little pond....

 

[pilotyip]

The difference is that most pro union pilots firmly realize that by themselves they are vulnerable and only by working together in an organized group can they speak truth to management without automatically risking their livelihoods.

That is not what I read in many of the posts here, I see under paid, over worked and we will shut the place down if we don't get our way. The message that managment needs to be taught a lesson on who really runs the company.

Anyone who does not go rah! rah!, is somehow a lessor human being.

BTW I started this thread based upon running across a NJ crew a Farmingham in January. I was flying with furloughed NJ pilot and we started talking about possible NJ recalls, The NJ crew said they had heard maybe this year. My NJ buddy who is not a FI member asked me to pose the question on a public site. A lot of good info came from that post. However thread drift has completely moved this tread from it original intent. Typical FI stuff, people with smaller minds who can not stand anyone who does not agree with them resort to personal attacks. Problably because somewherein the bottom of thier minds dwells this fear, OMG I might end up like yip and the other NJ piltos working with him some day.

 

[G4dude]

That is not what I read in many of the posts here, I see under paid, over worked and we will shut the place down if we don't get our way. The message that managment needs to be taught a lesson on who really runs the company.

Anyone who does not go rah! rah!, is somehow a lessor human being.

BTW I started this thread based upon running across a NJ crew a Farmingham in January. I was flying with furloughed NJ pilot and we started talking about possible NJ recalls, The NJ crew said they had heard maybe this year. My NJ buddy who is not a FI member asked me to pose the question on a public site. A lot of good info came from that post. However thread drift has completely moved this tread from it original intent. Typical FI stuff, people with smaller minds who can not stand anyone who does not agree with them resort to personal attacks. Problably because somewherein the bottom of thier minds dwells this fear, OMG I might end up like yip and the other NJ piltos working with him some day.

They think we are not union fans because we don't care about our fellow pilots. Pathetic. because they think this, the personal attacks make sense to them. We are mean, evil people who deserve ad hominem attacks. The Left has been doing this for more than a century. Might as well get used to it, or get off this otherwise marvelous board. By the way, the reason there are so few anti union pilots here is the way we are treated when we post our opinions. I have had a LOTof colleagues express amazement that I subject myself to this crap. Colleagues who agree with me.

 

[jetlag7]

They think we are not union fans because we don't care about our fellow pilots. Pathetic. because they think this, the personal attacks make sense to them. We are mean, evil people who deserve ad hominem attacks. The Left has been doing this for more than a century. Might as well get used to it, or get off this otherwise marvelous board. By the way, the reason there are so few anti union pilots here is the way we are treated when we post our opinions. I have had a LOTof colleagues express amazement that I subject myself to this crap. Colleagues who agree with me.

Actually, I've been enjoying the wave of rather civil discussions that have been flowing through most of the threads as of late.

There have been disagreements, but lately none have stooped to the typical "third-grade playground" behavior we've come to expect on FI....

 

[gret]

Just wait...you won't be disappointed.