NJ Recalls

[gret]

I kinda like the the idea of being 62, two homes, young wife, large boat, and a Harley.

What's the problem with that?

Gives me something to shoot for...

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

I would love to see at least a 10 to 15+% pay increase plus COLA at the top end. I wouldn't vote for anything less! Who wouldn't want to make big money at their job?

But I have to laugh sometimes.

If you are a 15 year PIC making 140k+ on the 7/7 and you can't make ends meet with that pay, you have to reevaluate where you are spending your money.

Most of America with a family of 4 makes a family income of just over 50k a year. Work with that!!!

Personally, I can take care of a $2500 mortgage (plus taxes/insurance), own two relatively nice cars, pay for college loans and still have plenty to "play with" (vacations and toys).

My heart doesn't bleed for these guys who have trouble paying a mortgage on two home (winter and summer), has a large speed boat, jet skis, Harley, Corvette, an X-wife, an expensive new wife, and they just turned 62 and somehow ended up with a new child that's 5 years old! Poor budgeting and life planning if you ask me.

It's none of your business what someone chooses to do with their hard earned money. Please spare us the comparison to the average generic wage earner as it is irrelevant and does little to advance our career worth. The fact remains that NJA pilots operate at a substantial discount from our peers in the profession especially considering that the job description is so open ended and all encompassing. While you might "love" to see gains of 10% 15% plus cola I'm going to try and support the case for much more.

 

[imacdog]

Did you know that one of our GIV Captains who has been bypassing his Delta recall will be going back this spring and will make MORE as a Delta F/O the day he returns? He's a great guy and I'm VERY happy for him but, do you think that makes ANY sense?

He'll be flying from familiar airport to familiar airport from 8,000 foot runway to 10,000 foot ILS runway. We have to be ready to do anything from Aspen to Aruba. Indianapolis to Istanbul.

How about an all-nighter from White Plains to Chambery, France. Ever shoot that approach? In steady rain, low ceilings, high winds, and moderate turbulence? It's a doozy. But Mr. Moneybags' KIDS got to the ski chalet safely and on-time. No, we don't get paid enough.

Pay Scale?

I'd like to see a 15 year scale for PIC's and SIC's but with a twist.

When an SIC upgrades to PIC, they join the PIC scale at Year 1, NOT their years of service. Year 1 PIC would necessarily have to be higher than Year 15 SIC. The PIC year scale would be for years as a PIC, not years of service. And once you reach 15 years in that seat, your salary goes up every year with COLA adjustments.

As others have pointed out, we are now more than 10% CHEAPER to the company than we were 6 years ago while Owner's contracts have continued to go UP because of the inflation escalator in their contracts. But nailing down a complete scale here would take more time than I'm willing to devote.

That said, I'd like to see the 15 year scale for PIC top out at around $200,000 (AND THEN COLA!) and the SIC scale top out at around $115,000 (AND THEN COLA!!). Year 1 PIC would then have to be about $125,000.

Did I mention there HAS TO BE COLA?

Probably pie in the sky but we shouldn't have to settle for much less.

Are you negotiating for the company?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Are you negotiating for the company?

Nope. It's still a pay raise from the highest pay the could make as an FO and starts them up a new path of pay raises every year.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Ha! Spend a year in the X and you'll understand what I'm talking about....

No offense, but you and I don't exactly work the same job.

So you DID read the whole thing......


And, wait a tic, I've been getting told for more than a decade that we DO work exactly the same job. Hmmmmmmm. Puzzlement.

 

[CA1900]

When an SIC upgrades to PIC, they join the PIC scale at Year 1, NOT their years of service. Year 1 PIC would necessarily have to be higher than Year 15 SIC...

I like your ideas in the prior post, but this is one I can't support at all. It sounds great if you've already upgraded. For those who haven't, it's a loss of earning potential that compounds every year.

You can't tell me that a PIC with eight years of seniority, who upgraded right before the music stopped, is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars more over the course of his career than a guy who just missed the upgrade. He's from the same new-hire class, but sat in the right seat for an additional ten years, and you think he should be paid significantly less for his entire career? Once he's upgraded, two guys doing the same job with the same hire date should be at the same place on the pay scale.

What you're suggesting is exactly what CommutAir used to do. I think we can do a whole lot better than a low-end regional.

 

[jetlag7]

So you DID read the whole thing......


And, wait a tic, I've been getting told for more than a decade that we DO work exactly the same job. Hmmmmmmm. Puzzlement.

Yes I did. You posted some good ideas in there BTW.....

 

[gutshotdraw]

I like your ideas in the prior post, but this is one I can't support at all. It sounds great if you've already upgraded. For those who haven't, it's a loss of earning potential that compounds every year.

You can't tell me that a PIC with eight years of seniority, who upgraded right before the music stopped, is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars more over the course of his career than a guy who just missed the upgrade. He's from the same new-hire class, but sat in the right seat for an additional ten years, and you think he should be paid significantly less for his entire career? Once he's upgraded, two guys doing the same job with the same hire date should be at the same place on the pay scale.

What you're suggesting is exactly what CommutAir used to do. I think we can do a whole lot better than a low-end regional.

I see your point but where does a line get drawn? Timing is EVERYTHING in this profession. And sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug. Ask a 121 guy whose 60th birthday was before December 12, 2007.

It's a long story, but timing (and a bumbling drunkard of an administator) resulted in my interview partner holding a seniority number 40 spots higher than me. Wasn't important before integration but it is now.

Another long story, but malicious tampering with one of our airplanes delayed my upgrade by several months (which cost me a chunk of change) and then years later, it came back to haunt me based on the cut off point for raises in 2010 prior to integration and the resulting pay freeze (which is STILL costing me a chunk of change).

As they say, ca-ca occurs.

I don't think you need to lose any sleep over the idea anyway since I'm certain it won't gain ANY traction. Just like dumping hourly overtime, overtime day limits, or the 15 day schedule won't gain any traction.

 

[CA1900]

I see your point but where does a line get drawn?

My point is that a 15-year captain should be paid as a guy with 15 years of experience at Netjets. Nothing can be done about the lost money because of the extra years as an FO (that's the ca-ca occurring), but making the remaining years less valuable because of that delayed upgrade seems like double punishment to me. Just have to disagree on this one.

I don't think you need to lose any sleep over the idea anyway since I'm certain it won't gain ANY traction. Just like dumping hourly overtime, overtime day limits, or the 15 day schedule won't gain any traction.

Eh, if it's reasonable, I wouldn't be so sure.

Just to pick one example: Our 2005 contract included two seniority-based "hard days off" that could be placed anywhere on the schedule for those on the Reserve schedule. Folks figured out pretty fast that if you put them ~9 days apart, you could guarantee more days off, because there was still a 7-day limit on tours. We voluntarily voted that out in favor of other improvements, and the company got tremendously higher productivity in exchange.

Despite the frothing here and on the private message board, we're actually a pretty reasonable bunch overall. None of us wants to strangle the golden goose -- we just don't want to end up covered in goose crap either. There's a happy medium there somewhere.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I never thought about it as "double punishment" but I can see that point of view.

I'm not nearly so hard over about creating a "new" pay scale system as in eliminating some of the stoooopid contractual limitations that end up hurting Owners such as the aforementioned five days of overtime per bid period or the hourly overtime.

Oh, and you can add the NRFO program to my list of stuff that can GO. We went around the world for 15 years without "special" pilots getting pantloads of extra cash to do a taxi check or an OCF.

Yes, an International trip in a far-flung locale was tubed last year because a NRFO had to be brought half-way around the world to TAXI a bloody airplane after maintenance. Forget about the extra cash they make. The productivity block itself is ridiculous.

And, for the record, I now refuse to be the "have-to-be-there-and-take-the-extra-risk-too-but-no-soup-for-you" guy on NRFO flights.

For purely safety and training reasons, of course.

 

[imacdog]

I see your point but where does a line get drawn? Timing is EVERYTHING in this profession. And sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug. Ask a 121 guy whose 60th birthday was before December 12, 2007.

Staying on YOS when you upgrade is industry standard. Are you suggesting we set our sights lower than industry standard?

 

[imacdog]

Let's also not forget that the introduction of the 15-day schedule in the 2007 contract was the company's idea.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Staying on YOS when you upgrade is industry standard. Are you suggesting we set our sights lower than industry standard?

Not at all. But we need to think outside the box on some things and consider alternatives to "the way it's always been done" in order to move the chains.

I dislike dogma in all forms. Religion, politics, or union ideology. Discarding any idea just because it doesn't conform to some preconceived notion of how it should be or has been done in the past strikes me as foolish. Let's put ALL the ideas on the table.

Good news is, the new union leadership seems a bit more reasonable on that front as opposed to our former, feckless leadership that seemed to say "when we want your opinion, we'll give it to you...."

 

[imacdog]

Sorry, you can't say "not at all" to aiming for lower than industry standard practices, when in fact you are suggesting we aim for lower than industry standard practices. Probably best that you let the negotiators take care of this one.

 

[brokeflyer]

Discarding any idea just because it doesn't conform to some preconceived notion of how it should be or has been done in the past strikes me as foolish."

then we should just write our own contract and the company will have to follow it. It's never been done that way.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Sorry, you can't say "not at all" to aiming for lower than industry standard practices, when in fact you are suggesting we aim for lower than industry standard practices. Probably best that you let the negotiators take care of this one.

Sorry, that is your OPINION that it is "lower that industry standard." There are plenty of ideas that should maybe be a new "industry standard" but don't meet your personal approval. I'm not saying it is the way things have to be but I AM saying we should consider a LOT of different ideas.

 

[imacdog]

Opinion? Not exactly. Going to year 1 PIC pay after an upgrade results in less compensation than going to your current YOS payscale. That's a fact, not an opinion. Therefore, it is a fact that you are advocating for lower than industry standard conditions for the leading fractional pilot group.

 

[gunfyter]

Let's also not forget that the introduction of the 15-day schedule in the 2007 contract was the company's idea.

Yes yes it was ...

 

[Ultra Grump]

This won't be popular......


1. Hourly overtime. What?

How much time, money, and effort is wasted calculating and chasing hourly overtime?

Pay us an across-the-board higher salary (with COLA) and dump all the hourly overtime stuff. Schedulers sometimes make decisions that negatively affect our owners (hence, profitability) because of edicts from on--high to avoid hourly overtime. Stupid.

Sounds like a company-induced problem to me. If that edict causes problems, "on-high" is free to change said edict at their whim. I refuse to take their self-induced problem on as my problem.

1A. So how do we prevent abuse by scheduling? Give them an incentive to turn us off when they REALLY don't need us on and save us for when they DO. How? Simple. Rest rules.

NO rest period shorter than 10 hours (from HOTEL ARRIVAL). Then, no rest period shorter than the preceding duty period, rounded UP to the next hour. In other words, you work an 11:05 duty day, you get 12:00 off. You work 12:20, you get 13:00 off. Now they have an incentive to get you into rest so it doesn't jack with a trip for the next day.

We should have this AND overtime. Additionally, OT should start after 10 hours. EMT edicts are not my problem.

2. Max days of overtime by bid period. Calculate the max overtime days by the YEAR.

Real Example: Last year, a crew was in Asia, gave up their jet to another crew, and then was asked to extend and airline to Singapore for a return trip to the States. "No problem" says the crew. Both of the pilots had worked a day or two of overtime earlier in the bid period. Now, customer says "Hey NetJets, I need to stay in Singapore a couple more days." Whoops! Change the crew out to the tune of about $20 grand because they would exceed the 5 day limit per bid period. Make the limit by the YEAR and that crew could have done the trip and saved some coin. Ripe for more Bubba abuse? Maybe. Worth it if you ask me.

So what happens when Bubba has used his yearly allotment of extended days in the first 3 months of the year, and is subsequently put in the same position?

3. Dump the 15 day schedule. You CANNOT make a financial case for a 3 or even 4 day tour amortizing the cost of airlining a pilot to or from a jet for that short a tour. Yes, we airline mid-tour but that is the COMPANY'S leak in the boat. The 15 day is a leak from OUR side of the boat.

No it's not. The company wanted it, to have the flexibility to plug holes. That they haven't used it as intended is again, not my problem. If they want to get rid of it, fine, but it should cost them. Maybe a 6-on-8-off schedule, or biddable lines. Or both.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Opinion? Not exactly. Going to year 1 PIC pay after an upgrade results in less compensation than going to your current YOS payscale. That's a fact, not an opinion. Therefore, it is a fact that you are advocating for lower than industry standard conditions for the leading fractional pilot group.

There are many that believe our comparable "industry standard" is a regional airline because of our aircraft size. I don't happen to agree with that assessment but there's a WHOLE LOT of difference between Skywest and Delta on the pay chart. So yes, it is your OPINION on what constitutes "industry standard."

It's not worth arguing because it won't gain any traction. Ideas that vary from the traditional labor vs. management paradigm rarely do.