NJ Recalls

[jetlag7]

Yep, I would hire Yip over Bentover any day. Getting kinda tired of Bentover, by the way.

Bent makes intelligent arguments in a polite fashion - I'm surprised you of all people wouldn't at least appreciate his civility.

If you re-read his post, there was never an attack on YIP's self-worth or self-respect (which would certainly be an insult) but rather questioning his sense of "worth as an employee." I interpreted that statement as simply a call for YIP to question whether he has been selling himself short or not.

I was actually enjoying the mature exchange between YIP and Bent..... Nice change of pace for Flight Info.

 

[B727FA]

A good first start for recalls would be for the newly-elected NJASAP President to vacate his 18-Day schedule for the 7/7 schedule.

I love seeing anti-unionists, spouting union gripes.

 

[Jack Campbell]

I love seeing anti-unionists, spouting union gripes.

I'm actually pro-union, out of necessity. The company has a union; its called "management". They are united. The pilots should also be united.

What I can't stand is when union leadership talks about promoting jobs and then they behave in a way that does the opposite.

 

[jetlag7]

I'm actually pro-union, out of necessity. The company has a union; its called "management". They are united. The pilots should also be united.

That's one of the best arguments for collective bargaining I've ever read.

What I can't stand is when union leadership talks about promoting jobs and then they behave in a way that does the opposite.

The President rarely flies the line. His salary is paid by membership dues. (which currently is a bargain for us considering he is on FO pay whereas his predecesdor was drawing a Captain's check) If he were on the 18-day schedule, it's only on paper.

 

[nordo_2]

I’ll take the middle way. The extreme of anything is ultimately detrimental. But, when the scales are imbalanced.

Good Union. Bad Union. Whatever. Pilots always need a contract. Your management doesn’t work without an individual contract, that delineates all party’s responsibility.

We don’t buy cars without a contract. You don’t buy a house without a contract. Contracts are how business is transacted. What are those things worth? Yet, airline managers expect you to be treated as if you’re a charity, and like it. You trade some of your most valued assets: Your time, and your expertise.

 

[Pervis]

Nordo, excellent analogy. Does company put trust in OEMs to deliver and warranty a product without a contract? They contract with every single supplier they utilize, yet try their utmost to avoid contracts with the very asset that is far more necessary than some VP of toiletries. Why should those on the very pointy end of the spear be treated at will? Those who choose to do so are more the fool for it.

If anyone thinks those writing the checks are some benevolent overseers, guess again. They will pay you as little as they can get away with, as each and every one of us does when making any large scale investment. Do you offer the car salesman more so he gets a better cut? I bet not.

 

[G4dude]

Bent makes intelligent arguments in a polite fashion - I'm surprised you of all people wouldn't at least appreciate his civility.

If you re-read his post, there was never an attack on YIP's self-worth or self-respect (which would certainly be an insult) but rather questioning his sense of "worth as an employee." I interpreted that statement as simply a call for YIP to question whether he has been selling himself short or not.

I was actually enjoying the mature exchange between YIP and Bent..... Nice change of pace for Flight Info.

Yeah, you are right. Sorry Bent. I was feelin a little cranky. I tend to admire Yip and don't like some of the things said about him on this forum.

 

[G4dude]

Nordo, excellent analogy. Does company put trust in OEMs to deliver and warranty a product without a contract? They contract with every single supplier they utilize, yet try their utmost to avoid contracts with the very asset that is far more necessary than some VP of toiletries. Why should those on the very pointy end of the spear be treated at will? Those who choose to do so are more the fool for it.

If anyone thinks those writing the checks are some benevolent overseers, guess again. They will pay you as little as they can get away with, as each and every one of us does when making any large scale investment. Do you offer the car salesman more so he gets a better cut? I bet not.

I agree with y'all about contracts, except I believe in INDIVIDUAL contracts, not collective.

 

[G4dude]

Nordo, excellent analogy. Does company put trust in OEMs to deliver and warranty a product without a contract? They contract with every single supplier they utilize, yet try their utmost to avoid contracts with the very asset that is far more necessary than some VP of toiletries. Why should those on the very pointy end of the spear be treated at will? Those who choose to do so are more the fool for it.

If anyone thinks those writing the checks are some benevolent overseers, guess again. They will pay you as little as they can get away with, as each and every one of us does when making any large scale investment. Do you offer the car salesman more so he gets a better cut? I bet not.

I want to make as much as I can, and they want to pay me as little as they can. This tension is the wage leveling mechanism, and it works fine, seems to me.

 

[gunfyter]

I agree with y'all about contracts, except I believe in INDIVIDUAL contracts, not collective.

I can't negotiate to save my ass... and i can't afford my own lawyer/agent to negotiate for me....

What's wrong with pooling resources for this purpose?

 

[G4dude]

I can't negotiate to save my ass... and i can't afford my own lawyer/agent to negotiate for me....

What's wrong with pooling resources for this purpose?

Great question. Here are the answers:
We all don't want the same things. For instance, some want a pension, whereas I would rather get all my compensation up front so I can plan my own retirement.
Unions seem to morph, over time, into a bureaucracy with its own agenda just like any other grouping of human beings.
Unions tend to try to coerce members who don't agree with the leadership.
Unions tend to slow the employer's ability to quickly adapt to changes in the marketplace, endangering the long term survival of the company.
Pilot unions tend to protect bad pilots who REALLY need to do something else for a living.
Unions tend to forget the company's prosperity is essential to the continued employment of it's members. NJASAP post Luthi does not seem to be headed that way, so far.
Unions sometimes strike, which drives me nuts. If I don't like my job, I will leave, not dreaming of pressuring others to strike.
When unions strike my company, voluntarily leaving their jobs, and I don't voluntarily leave MY job to join the mob, I get yelled at and called a "scab". Yet I don't mistreat the strikers at all because they don't agree with me.
In general, I believe humans behave better individually than they do collectively.
Mark Luthi. What a GREAT argument against unions.
I believe my way is not perfect, but it is better than the union way. Cheers! And thanks again for the good question.

 

[brokeflyer]

its not a perfect system. Until management treats its employees fairly and pays them what their worth, they're going to get the union they deserve.

management are the only ones who can change the way the system works.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Great question. Here are the answers:
We all don't want the same things. For instance, some want a pension, whereas I would rather get all my compensation up front so I can plan my own retirement.
Unions seem to morph, over time, into a bureaucracy with its own agenda just like any other grouping of human beings.
Unions tend to try to coerce members who don't agree with the leadership.
Unions tend to slow the employer's ability to quickly adapt to changes in the marketplace, endangering the long term survival of the company.
Pilot unions tend to protect bad pilots who REALLY need to do something else for a living.
Unions tend to forget the company's prosperity is essential to the continued employment of it's members. NJASAP post Luthi does not seem to be headed that way, so far.
Unions sometimes strike, which drives me nuts. If I don't like my job, I will leave, not dreaming of pressuring others to strike.
When unions strike my company, voluntarily leaving their jobs, and I don't voluntarily leave MY job to join the mob, I get yelled at and called a "scab". Yet I don't mistreat the strikers at all because they don't agree with me.
In general, I believe humans behave better individually than they do collectively.
Mark Luthi. What a GREAT argument against unions.
I believe my way is not perfect, but it is better than the union way. Cheers! And thanks again for the good question.

Then you would be negotiating AGAINST both the company and other employees. New hires would be your worst enemy because they would sell their soul to get hired on with some companies. Maybe even willing to pay the company to start. Now you are competing with that . Who decides who flies as captain? The biggest ass kisser? They guy willing to fly for the cheapest? There are so many problems with your answer, you might as well say we compete for our contract via MMA fighting.

 

[G4dude]

Then you would be negotiating AGAINST both the company and other employees. New hires would be your worst enemy because they would sell their soul to get hired on with some companies. Maybe even willing to pay the company to start. Now you are competing with that . Who decides who flies as captain? The biggest ass kisser? They guy willing to fly for the cheapest? There are so many problems with your answer, you might as well say we compete for our contract via MMA fighting.

You are not all wrong. I compete with all the other pilots out there. I better do a good job and make the company want me to work here. They can fire me whenever they want, in my preferred world. The job belongs to the company, not to me, because it is their investment money and organizational and administrative energy, not mine. If I want to own my job, I should start my own company, which I am now doing, by the way.
As an employee, I want to make as much as I can, while the company pays me as little as it takes to keep me, as long as they want me to work here. They better treat me right or I will leave. I better do good work or they will replace me. Our association is VOLUNTARY. I enjoy working at NJA. They apparently like having me here, go figure.
Unions brought pilots the Seniority System, which pays, for instance, senior captains more than junior captains for doing the same job. This drives up the costs of a mature company and opens the door to the ValueJets and XOJets of the world who can compete by employing junior pilots in their startup. When the older company gradually loses ground due to this seniority overhead problem, where do the pilots go?
The concept of Seniority amazes me. Why should I make more in 2013 than a more junior captain? Our cost of living is the same. If a rival company with a seniority system wants to hire me away from NJA, they can't because I would have to start as an FO. FlexJet can't compete for my allegedly wonderful flying skills because of the seniority system. Delta can't vie for my services. Bummer.

 

[OPECJet]

The concept of seniority is a safeguard to ensure the captain with the most writeups doesn't get fired over it. Without it you can guarantee that the guy willing to fly through the thunderstorms rather than wait them out, or even deviate stays in the seat. Same with fatigue calls, sick calls, etc.

I won't say it's a perfect system, but can you name something that couldn't be taken advantage of by a company? I feel pretty confident that several guys would be downgraded due to exercising captain's authority more than a company likes.