NJ Recalls

[G4dude]

In the very very short time NJA was on top of the aviation world (say 2007-roughly 2009), there weren't alot of options for a regional guy to move on to. Limited hiring by SWA and JB, majors had few open doors...

Cue Netjets.. For RJ Captains it was about the same pay. For RJ FO's it was a pay increase. Plus the added bonus of the "you'll be a Captain in 3 years" and the ever famous "Welcome to the last job you'll ever have!" ....

Now fast forward to today:

Legacy carriers are all getting some form of an improved contract. Delta just got a significant raise, USAir is about to see increases pending an AA merger. Continental just got a raise. And for the most part it seems as if things are on the up and up at most, if not all Legacies...

Meanwhile, NJA has completely stagnated. Upgrades are an undetermined 10+++ years. FO pay is not even close to the potential one can make at a Legacy. Not to mention very limited schedule flexibility.

Not only will NJA lose many pilots to the airlines. NJA will never see the quality of newhires they were accustom to in 2007 and beyond. (I recently met an international heavy pilot from Japan who said "oh yeah I applied to NJA in 2008 after a furlough, didn't make the cut." ) *IF* Netjets ever hires again, they will see less and less experienced jet operators and more guys just coming off their first turbine gig flying boxes between SMF and SLC. (no offense).:beer: Netjets is once again going to be a stepping stone for guys to build some jet time to help get them to a Major airline. With no chance of upgrade it's the sad reality.

Routinely the guys I fly with today either have never heard of Netjets, or they vaguely know it's some form of corporate outfit. Netjets is off the radar these days.

BTW, Netjets did VERY VERY well with an fractional leading contract that paid much more than their counterparts..

Fair enough, and a good post. However, I believe NJA will be a dynamic place to work with fairly rapid upgrades when the economy picks up steam. Unfortunately, I suspect that will happen around 2017. Our stagnation is due to the moribund world and national economy rather than a bad business model, dear friends.

 

[G4dude]

Then become a Food Store Manager, if you fly because you like to it is a great job. You know the rest

Part of our compensation is that we enjoy the profession, by the way. Not to mention the Glamour and the Women.

 

[G4dude]

Dude, ya know I luv ya amigo but how much we get paid is the proverbial drop in the bucket affecting our company's competitiveness. Scheduling and travel blow enough in a month to give us ALL a 5 percent raise right now. Every month.

Yes, I'm pulling that number out of my a$$ but you get the point.

We need to worry FAR more about productivity limitations imposed by the contract and the attitude it creates. Productivity focus was how Southwest led the way to the best pay in the industry.

NetJets can pay us more. A lot more, and still be competitive and make a profit. It's up to management to find the leaks in the boat. And the PAY and BENEFITS of the pilot group ARE NOT the leak.

I get your point, my fine golfing friend. However, I don't share your assessment of the relative insignificance of pilot compensation. I could be wrong though. There are lots of factors affecting productivity and profit, and pilot pay is one of them. Would I turn down a raise? Nooooo sir!

 

[G4dude]

management is going to have to take some cuts. I know it'll be tough for them scraping by on only 2 million $$'s per year, but this is crunch time.

Management cuts sound fine to me, unless we can't retain the good managers or attract other really good ones. I think Billy Noe does a fine job, always have. Shane too.

 

[brokeflyer]

until the owner's speak to or meet face-to-face "management", then that isnt where the talent lies.

Invest appropriately.

 

[jetlag7]

Then become a Food Store Manager, if you fly because you like to it is a great job. You know the rest

That is certainly one option in a growing list of choices....

Yes, I like to fly - I have yet to meet a pilot who doesn't. There are very few activities more enjoyable on Earth.

However, there is a distinction between flying on your own time vs flying for someone else.

When hired to do a job, I'm not doing so for personal enjoyment or recreation. I'm being paid to provide services and expertise for the advancement of my employers business.

If more pilots would treat this profession like a CAREER rather than a "great job" and "fly because they like to" we wouldn't need to compare ourselves to food store managers.

 

[imacdog]

Part of our compensation is that we enjoy the profession, by the way. Not to mention the Glamour and the Women.

I like flying so I bought a small plane. I'm in the profession to make a living and take care of my family.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I get your point, my fine golfing friend. However, I don't share your assessment of the relative insignificance of pilot compensation. I could be wrong though. There are lots of factors affecting productivity and profit, and pilot pay is one of them. Would I turn down a raise? Nooooo sir!

I gave up chasing the white pellet across the pasture. Now I put very large holes in paper and cardboard and convert money into noise instead....

Like I said a while back, you have to not care when the brain trust threatens "CHAOS! MAYHEM! DISASTER!" The money is there for a pay RAISE and with the right changes to certain productivity issues, a new contract could actually result in HIGHER revenue and profit margin if managed correctly. Sadly, I think the inability to think outside the box on BOTH sides will make that unlikely.

 

[CA1900]

If you compare our 2005 contract to the 2007 one, you'll see that this group is very willing and able to work together on common-sense improvements for both parties. The company enjoyed dramatic improvements in crew utilization with the 2007 contract due to work rule changes.

 

[pilotyip]

I Sadly, I think the inability to think outside the box on BOTH sides will make that unlikely.

There is the great danger, pride and position come before the solution.

I like flying so I bought a small plane. I'm in the profession to make a living and take care of my family.

Neat! what kind do you have? I have a C-172

 

[jetlag7]

...with the right changes to certain productivity issues, a new contract could actually result in HIGHER revenue and profit margin if managed correctly.......

This is the most challenging and labor-intense job I've ever worked in my career.... (even more so than my days as a freight dog)

I have no clue as to how it would be humanly possible to squeeze additional efficiency out of my hide, so I'm curious what specific productivity issues you feel are holding us back?

 

[jonjuan]

IMO, for a company like Netjets, 5th year SIC's should be in the range of atleast $110-120K...On the 7/7..More for the 18 day guys....

NJA typically profits more than major airlines, and that is what the major FO's typically bring in.. Now with new contracts being signed, FO's (and CPT's of course!) are beginning to see improvements in their income at the Legacies...

Delta made $1.6B in net profit last year (with 2013 forecast of $2.5 Billion) for example. Did NJA make anywhere near that? No idea-just comparing apples-to-apples.
Of course, much of that profit was made by charging for bags. There's un untapped revenue stream for you.

 

[G4dude]

I gave up chasing the white pellet across the pasture. Now I put very large holes in paper and cardboard and convert money into noise instead....

Like I said a while back, you have to not care when the brain trust threatens "CHAOS! MAYHEM! DISASTER!" The money is there for a pay RAISE and with the right changes to certain productivity issues, a new contract could actually result in HIGHER revenue and profit margin if managed correctly. Sadly, I think the inability to think outside the box on BOTH sides will make that unlikely.

What pay scale would you like to see?

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

What pay scale would you like to see?

For starters something that is commensurate with our counterparts at premiere Legacy or Freight carriers. Historically that has been a defining benchmark for our profession. For perspective the APA just negotiated with BK AMR a 14% direct contribution into their 401k. NJA is well positioned to be spectacularly profitable in the near future. We are the world's preeminent brand of travel in part because of all our efforts on the line. All I'm asking for is something that reasonably compensates me for my experience, time away from home and for a robust retirement portfolio once my 30+ years here expire. This company should always be in the forefront in providing a compensation package that serves to retain and recruit the profession's most well qualified personnel. The folks that occupy our cabins would expect nothing less.

 

[jrmyl]

For starters something that is commensurate with our counterparts at premiere Legacy or Freight carriers. Historically that has been a defining benchmark for our profession. For perspective the APA just negotiated with BK AMR a 14% direct contribution into their 401k. NJA is well positioned to be spectacularly profitable in the near future. We are the world's preeminent brand of travel in part because of all our efforts on the line. All I'm asking for is something that reasonably compensates me for my experience, time away from home and for a robust retirement portfolio once my 30+ years here expire. This company should always be in the forefront in providing a compensation package that serves to retain and recruit the profession's most well qualified personnel. The folks that occupy our cabins would expect nothing less.

I, for example, am making much more now that I am furloughed than as an fo at NJ. I made more my first year at AJX than I did on year 3 pay at NJA. Now on year 3 pay as an fo at AJX and am making over 120k/year. With the same benefits as I had at NJA. So I believe that NJA has a long way to go to improve in the compensation package. I feel that I am finally making what I should be making. Would I like more, of course, but I am satisfied for now as an f/o.

 

[gutshotdraw]

This is the most challenging and labor-intense job I've ever worked in my career.... (even more so than my days as a freight dog)

I have no clue as to how it would be humanly possible to squeeze additional efficiency out of my hide, so I'm curious what specific productivity issues you feel are holding us back?

This won't be popular......


1. Hourly overtime. What?

How much time, money, and effort is wasted calculating and chasing hourly overtime?

Pay us an across-the-board higher salary (with COLA) and dump all the hourly overtime stuff. Schedulers sometimes make decisions that negatively affect our owners (hence, profitability) because of edicts from on--high to avoid hourly overtime. Stupid.

1A. So how do we prevent abuse by scheduling? Give them an incentive to turn us off when they REALLY don't need us on and save us for when they DO. How? Simple. Rest rules.

NO rest period shorter than 10 hours (from HOTEL ARRIVAL). Then, no rest period shorter than the preceding duty period, rounded UP to the next hour. In other words, you work an 11:05 duty day, you get 12:00 off. You work 12:20, you get 13:00 off. Now they have an incentive to get you into rest so it doesn't jack with a trip for the next day.

2. Max days of overtime by bid period. Calculate the max overtime days by the YEAR.

Real Example: Last year, a crew was in Asia, gave up their jet to another crew, and then was asked to extend and airline to Singapore for a return trip to the States. "No problem" says the crew. Both of the pilots had worked a day or two of overtime earlier in the bid period. Now, customer says "Hey NetJets, I need to stay in Singapore a couple more days." Whoops! Change the crew out to the tune of about $20 grand because they would exceed the 5 day limit per bid period. Make the limit by the YEAR and that crew could have done the trip and saved some coin. Ripe for more Bubba abuse? Maybe. Worth it if you ask me.

3. Dump the 15 day schedule. You CANNOT make a financial case for a 3 or even 4 day tour amortizing the cost of airlining a pilot to or from a jet for that short a tour. Yes, we airline mid-tour but that is the COMPANY'S leak in the boat. The 15 day is a leak from OUR side of the boat.

Those are my top 3. Okay, 3 and a half. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to "game" the system that could be curbed or eliminated but I'm not very familiar with how to manipulate the contract. The examples above are just the most obvious ones to me.

And Jetlag, no offense but if this is the hardest flying job you've ever worked, you've had a charmed career.

 

[gutshotdraw]

What pay scale would you like to see?

Did you know that one of our GIV Captains who has been bypassing his Delta recall will be going back this spring and will make MORE as a Delta F/O the day he returns? He's a great guy and I'm VERY happy for him but, do you think that makes ANY sense?

He'll be flying from familiar airport to familiar airport from 8,000 foot runway to 10,000 foot ILS runway. We have to be ready to do anything from Aspen to Aruba. Indianapolis to Istanbul.

How about an all-nighter from White Plains to Chambery, France. Ever shoot that approach? In steady rain, low ceilings, high winds, and moderate turbulence? It's a doozy. But Mr. Moneybags' KIDS got to the ski chalet safely and on-time. No, we don't get paid enough.

Pay Scale?

I'd like to see a 15 year scale for PIC's and SIC's but with a twist.

When an SIC upgrades to PIC, they join the PIC scale at Year 1, NOT their years of service. Year 1 PIC would necessarily have to be higher than Year 15 SIC. The PIC year scale would be for years as a PIC, not years of service. And once you reach 15 years in that seat, your salary goes up every year with COLA adjustments.

As others have pointed out, we are now more than 10% CHEAPER to the company than we were 6 years ago while Owner's contracts have continued to go UP because of the inflation escalator in their contracts. But nailing down a complete scale here would take more time than I'm willing to devote.

That said, I'd like to see the 15 year scale for PIC top out at around $200,000 (AND THEN COLA!) and the SIC scale top out at around $115,000 (AND THEN COLA!!). Year 1 PIC would then have to be about $125,000.

Did I mention there HAS TO BE COLA?

Probably pie in the sky but we shouldn't have to settle for much less.

 

[jetlag7]

...And Jetlag, no offense but if this is the hardest flying job you've ever worked, you've had a charmed career.

Ha! Spend a year in the X and you'll understand what I'm talking about....

No offense, but you and I don't exactly work the same job.

 

[BentOver]

I'm gonna side with Jetlag on this one.... Back when NJA was really busy, in the X I remember doing 5 legs a day with maybe 4 being revenue flights. Cleaning an a/c, stocking, catering, loading bags, and carrying out those cases of Fiji etc...... In the sense of the actual amount of work done, NJA is a labor intensive flying job where you are constantly doing something or preparing to constantly do something....That does not include how many times a NJA pilot checks his/her BB a day...

vs. a 121 operation where I turn left, load the flight plan and wait....


And in the case of the GIV PIC returning to Delta...IMO that pretty much sums up the current mindset of many on the NJA list.....(How alluring must the airlines be when you have a GIV PIC voluntarily leaving to return to the airlines)

 

[cldsfr79]

I would love to see at least a 10 to 15+% pay increase plus COLA at the top end. I wouldn't vote for anything less! Who wouldn't want to make big money at their job?

But I have to laugh sometimes.

If you are a 15 year PIC making 140k+ on the 7/7 and you can't make ends meet with that pay, you have to reevaluate where you are spending your money.

Most of America with a family of 4 makes a family income of just over 50k a year. Work with that!!!

Personally, I can take care of a $2500 mortgage (plus taxes/insurance), own two relatively nice cars, pay for college loans and still have plenty to "play with" (vacations and toys).

My heart doesn't bleed for these guys who have trouble paying a mortgage on two home (winter and summer), has a large speed boat, jet skis, Harley, Corvette, an X-wife, an expensive new wife, and they just turned 62 and somehow ended up with a new child that's 5 years old! Poor budgeting and life planning if you ask me.