NJ Recalls

[imacdog]

I see your point but where does a line get drawn? Timing is EVERYTHING in this profession. And sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug. Ask a 121 guy whose 60th birthday was before December 12, 2007.

Staying on YOS when you upgrade is industry standard. Are you suggesting we set our sights lower than industry standard?

 

[imacdog]

Let's also not forget that the introduction of the 15-day schedule in the 2007 contract was the company's idea.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Staying on YOS when you upgrade is industry standard. Are you suggesting we set our sights lower than industry standard?

Not at all. But we need to think outside the box on some things and consider alternatives to "the way it's always been done" in order to move the chains.

I dislike dogma in all forms. Religion, politics, or union ideology. Discarding any idea just because it doesn't conform to some preconceived notion of how it should be or has been done in the past strikes me as foolish. Let's put ALL the ideas on the table.

Good news is, the new union leadership seems a bit more reasonable on that front as opposed to our former, feckless leadership that seemed to say "when we want your opinion, we'll give it to you...."

 

[imacdog]

Sorry, you can't say "not at all" to aiming for lower than industry standard practices, when in fact you are suggesting we aim for lower than industry standard practices. Probably best that you let the negotiators take care of this one.

 

[brokeflyer]

Discarding any idea just because it doesn't conform to some preconceived notion of how it should be or has been done in the past strikes me as foolish."

then we should just write our own contract and the company will have to follow it. It's never been done that way.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Sorry, you can't say "not at all" to aiming for lower than industry standard practices, when in fact you are suggesting we aim for lower than industry standard practices. Probably best that you let the negotiators take care of this one.

Sorry, that is your OPINION that it is "lower that industry standard." There are plenty of ideas that should maybe be a new "industry standard" but don't meet your personal approval. I'm not saying it is the way things have to be but I AM saying we should consider a LOT of different ideas.

 

[imacdog]

Opinion? Not exactly. Going to year 1 PIC pay after an upgrade results in less compensation than going to your current YOS payscale. That's a fact, not an opinion. Therefore, it is a fact that you are advocating for lower than industry standard conditions for the leading fractional pilot group.

 

[gunfyter]

Let's also not forget that the introduction of the 15-day schedule in the 2007 contract was the company's idea.

Yes yes it was ...

 

[Ultra Grump]

This won't be popular......


1. Hourly overtime. What?

How much time, money, and effort is wasted calculating and chasing hourly overtime?

Pay us an across-the-board higher salary (with COLA) and dump all the hourly overtime stuff. Schedulers sometimes make decisions that negatively affect our owners (hence, profitability) because of edicts from on--high to avoid hourly overtime. Stupid.

Sounds like a company-induced problem to me. If that edict causes problems, "on-high" is free to change said edict at their whim. I refuse to take their self-induced problem on as my problem.

1A. So how do we prevent abuse by scheduling? Give them an incentive to turn us off when they REALLY don't need us on and save us for when they DO. How? Simple. Rest rules.

NO rest period shorter than 10 hours (from HOTEL ARRIVAL). Then, no rest period shorter than the preceding duty period, rounded UP to the next hour. In other words, you work an 11:05 duty day, you get 12:00 off. You work 12:20, you get 13:00 off. Now they have an incentive to get you into rest so it doesn't jack with a trip for the next day.

We should have this AND overtime. Additionally, OT should start after 10 hours. EMT edicts are not my problem.

2. Max days of overtime by bid period. Calculate the max overtime days by the YEAR.

Real Example: Last year, a crew was in Asia, gave up their jet to another crew, and then was asked to extend and airline to Singapore for a return trip to the States. "No problem" says the crew. Both of the pilots had worked a day or two of overtime earlier in the bid period. Now, customer says "Hey NetJets, I need to stay in Singapore a couple more days." Whoops! Change the crew out to the tune of about $20 grand because they would exceed the 5 day limit per bid period. Make the limit by the YEAR and that crew could have done the trip and saved some coin. Ripe for more Bubba abuse? Maybe. Worth it if you ask me.

So what happens when Bubba has used his yearly allotment of extended days in the first 3 months of the year, and is subsequently put in the same position?

3. Dump the 15 day schedule. You CANNOT make a financial case for a 3 or even 4 day tour amortizing the cost of airlining a pilot to or from a jet for that short a tour. Yes, we airline mid-tour but that is the COMPANY'S leak in the boat. The 15 day is a leak from OUR side of the boat.

No it's not. The company wanted it, to have the flexibility to plug holes. That they haven't used it as intended is again, not my problem. If they want to get rid of it, fine, but it should cost them. Maybe a 6-on-8-off schedule, or biddable lines. Or both.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Opinion? Not exactly. Going to year 1 PIC pay after an upgrade results in less compensation than going to your current YOS payscale. That's a fact, not an opinion. Therefore, it is a fact that you are advocating for lower than industry standard conditions for the leading fractional pilot group.

There are many that believe our comparable "industry standard" is a regional airline because of our aircraft size. I don't happen to agree with that assessment but there's a WHOLE LOT of difference between Skywest and Delta on the pay chart. So yes, it is your OPINION on what constitutes "industry standard."

It's not worth arguing because it won't gain any traction. Ideas that vary from the traditional labor vs. management paradigm rarely do.

 

[imacdog]

Okay, if you want to go regionals, that's fine. Industry standard among regionals is to stay on YOS, and that ain't going to change anytime soon bud.

 

[billybob]

I'm not trying to be a a$$ but after 15 pages of crap I still don't have my old job back. I don't guess I will anytime soon or ever but I am close to the top of the list so... What is being done to look after the bottom of the list down the road if and when the next downturn happens. Why would anyone ever even think about coming back when I could have 5 years under me at united and a good pad of guys so I don't get put out in the cold again. Or I could sit at the bottom of the Nja list forever. I know how this place works and how it's a given with a furlough in this job. The game has changed at Nja and everyone needs to think about that.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Okay, if you want to go regionals, that's fine. Industry standard among regionals is to stay on YOS, and that ain't going to change anytime soon bud.

Clearly, you have a reading comprehension problem.

I said there are those that believe our industry equivalent is a regional airline. I DON'T AGREE with that assessment.

I also said, twice now, that it WON'T change.

English must not be your first language.

 

[imacdog]

Actually I'm quite proficient at English. By examining the pay scale standards at other large carriers (written in English, by the way), it is easy to see that keeping YOS is the standard when upgrading. You're welcome to disagree, but you're the extreme minority who wishes lower wages for your fellow employees. Kinda sad really.

 

[jetlag7]

Back on topic.....

Just back from recurrent -- looks like the recall window has been pushed back to 2017.....

 

[imacdog]

That's a helluva five-year plan.

 

[BentOver]

Back on topic.....

Just back from recurrent -- looks like the recall window has been pushed back to 2017.....

I think there was a post from me a few months ago (bashing management) that said this same thing keeps happening. Every year they have pushed back expected recall.....

Based purely on attrition lately (roughly 3 pilots a month) I could comfortably assume that recall would be April 2018 for my hire date.. That takes in NO adjustments for perceived over staffing, loss of more a/c or any other change. Just pure attrition (which is the only way I ever see a recall happening). Roughly 60 pilots have "retired" from NJA in the past 3+ years. And not 1 recall because of it. Safe to assume the "turnaround" is nothing more than a rap song by Flo Rida...

NJA is going to be in serious contention for the longest upgrade times in aviation. It's one thing to be right seat in a 737 for $150K at SWA, working 12 days a month. A whole 'nother thing to be right seat in an Ultra for $80K, on a un-adjustable schedule.

Polish up your resumes SIC's, hit the ground running.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

I think there was a post from me a few months ago (bashing management) that said this same thing keeps happening. Every year they have pushed back expected recall.....

Based purely on attrition lately (roughly 3 pilots a month) I could comfortably assume that recall would be April 2018 for my hire date.. That takes in NO adjustments for perceived over staffing, loss of more a/c or any other change. Just pure attrition (which is the only way I ever see a recall happening). Roughly 60 pilots have "retired" from NJA in the past 3+ years. And not 1 recall because of it. Safe to assume the "turnaround" is nothing more than a rap song by Flo Rida...

NJA is going to be in serious contention for the longest upgrade times in aviation. It's one thing to be right seat in a 737 for $150K at SWA, working 12 days a month. A whole 'nother thing to be right seat in an Ultra for $80K, on a un-adjustable schedule.

Polish up your resumes SIC's, hit the ground running.

I simply don't see how it's possible for the EMT to push back recalls. I know it's the date they are advertising on Bridgeway, but the owner movements in the past month are at 2007 levels. I have banged in 3 Fbombs in '13 because its been "bat $hit crazy" around here. That is a personal high fwiw. SIC's like myself are keeping our stuff current. I still have ambitions of putting some of my ACA PIC to good use when the new American begins hiring in masse, but honestly I won't chunk away 7 yrs of seniority without a thorough attempt at attaining an industry leading contract. This place can still be the career vehicle. God knows we are worth it. Good luck to all.

 

[BentOver]

I simply don't see how it's possible for the EMT to push back recalls. I know it's the date they are advertising on Bridgeway, but the owner movements in the past month are at 2007 levels. I have banged in 3 Fbombs in '13 because its been "bat $hit crazy" around here. That is a personal high fwiw. SIC's like myself are keeping our stuff current. I still have ambitions of putting some of my ACA PIC to good use when the new American begins hiring in masse, but honestly I won't chunk away 7 yrs of seniority without a thorough attempt at attaining an industry leading contract. This place can still be the career vehicle. God knows we are worth it. Good luck to all.

Here's how........... http://av-info.faa.gov/detail.asp?DSGN_CODE=DXTA&OPER_FAR=135&OPER_NAME=NETJETS+AVIATION+INC

The X's have been slowly dwindling.... The fact that they have had roughly 60 leave, and not a wif of a small recall tells alot about not only the needed staffing level, but the future staffing.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Here's how........... http://av-info.faa.gov/detail.asp?DSGN_CODE=DXTA&OPER_FAR=135&OPER_NAME=NETJETS+AVIATION+INC

The X's have been slowly dwindling.... The fact that they have had roughly 60 leave, and not a wif of a small recall tells alot about not only the needed staffing level, but the future staffing.

Well aware of the current state of the fleet, but NJA staffs according to demand. Current staffing is becoming inadequate for what we are now seeing in terms of aircraft revenue movements. Throw in the upcoming training bubble and again I can't rationally see how they will be able to push recalls into '17. An astute observer could conclude that these talking points from CMH might be tied to posturing for section 6.

 

[X-rated]

Well aware of the current state of the fleet, but NJA staffs according to demand. Current staffing is becoming inadequate for what we are now seeing in terms of aircraft revenue movements. Throw in the upcoming training bubble and again I can't rationally see how they will be able to push recalls into '17. An astute observer could conclude that these talking points from CMH might be tied to posturing for section 6.

I don't recall ever hearing anyone talk about staffing in terms of owner movements. I generally hear people talk about number of pilots per airplane which makes sense to me. Do you have a substantial number of relief crews stationed strategically around the country who are not assigned to a specific airplane? Any idea what the staffing level is now per airplane?

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

I don't recall ever hearing anyone talk about staffing in terms of owner movements.

Staffing for demand is reliable info without getting into sources.

 

[X-rated]

Staffing for demand is reliable info without getting into sources.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise. They were sincere questions meant to help me understand current staffing levels in terms I understand. No problem if it's not something you can share.

 

[G4dude]

I never thought about it as "double punishment" but I can see that point of view.

I'm not nearly so hard over about creating a "new" pay scale system as in eliminating some of the stoooopid contractual limitations that end up hurting Owners such as the aforementioned five days of overtime per bid period or the hourly overtime.

Oh, and you can add the NRFO program to my list of stuff that can GO. We went around the world for 15 years without "special" pilots getting pantloads of extra cash to do a taxi check or an OCF.

Yes, an International trip in a far-flung locale was tubed last year because a NRFO had to be brought half-way around the world to TAXI a bloody airplane after maintenance. Forget about the extra cash they make. The productivity block itself is ridiculous.

And, for the record, I now refuse to be the "have-to-be-there-and-take-the-extra-risk-too-but-no-soup-for-you" guy on NRFO flights.

For purely safety and training reasons, of course.

I agree with your assertions about NRFO. Whose idea was that silly program?

 

[BentOver]

While busier owner movements certainly help the case for needing more pilots. Staffing is most certainly strategically tied to number of a/c.....

An a/c can theoretically only fly 24 hrs in a day.... to staff an a/c for a whole day only takes 4 pilots at 2 12 hr shifts... Thats a maximum number if the plane "were" to fly around the clock... We all know that doesn't happen.. Factor in vacations, training, etc.. and that gives them the fudge factor staffing model....

Of course when times were slower in 2009-?? they could reduce that number because they had tons of crews on standby from home or wherever... With only 394 a/c on property, those planes could fly around the clock and it still would barely affect the need for more pilots... It's the number of planes that will truly affect any chance of needing more pilots (that and the attrition that will take place shortly)

394 a/c and roughly 2550 pilots.. Every plane that is disposed of increases the number of pilots per a/c...They furloughed down to nearly 5 pilots per a/c back in 2010. Primarily because they hadn't disposed of any a/c yet...Slowly they have gotten rid of 100 a/c which brings the staffing level to whatever it is today.(6.xx)

 

[pilotyip]

I agree with your assertions about NRFO. Whose idea was that silly program?

Non-Routine Flight Operations, a FAA program for 121 operators, don't know if it applies to 91K or maybe it was picked up as a higher level of safety. This was brought about by a line crew on an Airborne DC-8 that were testing a stall warning device by going into an actual stall at night and then crashed.

Group I NRFO's can be flown by any crew on any flight, such things as see if the new radio in position 2 works at FL350.

Group II NRFO's directs provides that after certain maintenance procedures a local flight must be flown in day VFR conditions to determine if the aircraft is ready to return to line operations, such as removal and re-installation of a flight control. The airlines designate post maintenance check pilots to do the NRFO flights.

 

[gunfyter]

Sounds like a good program ....

 

[imacdog]

Safety over ego, I like it.......

 

[G4dude]

Safety over ego, I like it.......

In theory, I agree. But the union at NJA has used the program as a featherbedding vehicle, inflating pilot pay for the NRFO guys to do what any of us could do.

 

[brokeflyer]

In theory, I agree. But the union at NJA has used the program as a featherbedding vehicle, inflating pilot pay for the NRFO guys to do what any of us could do.

i agree