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NJ Recalls

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The seniority system at a large company isn't perfect but it's far better than the alternative.
 
OPECJet said:
The concept of seniority is a safeguard to ensure the captain with the most writeups doesn't get fired over it. Without it you can guarantee that the guy willing to fly through the thunderstorms rather than wait them out, or even deviate stays in the seat. Same with fatigue calls, sick calls, etc.

I won't say it's a perfect system, but can you name something that couldn't be taken advantage of by a company? I feel pretty confident that several guys would be downgraded due to exercising captain's authority more than a company likes.
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I believe my imperfect system beats your imperfect system. So there.
 
G4dude said:
You are not all wrong. I compete with all the other pilots out there. I better do a good job and make the company want me to work here. They can fire me whenever they want, in my preferred world. The job belongs to the company, not to me, because it is their investment money and organizational and administrative energy, not mine. If I want to own my job, I should start my own company, which I am now doing, by the way.
As an employee, I want to make as much as I can, while the company pays me as little as it takes to keep me, as long as they want me to work here. They better treat me right or I will leave. I better do good work or they will replace me. Our association is VOLUNTARY. I enjoy working at NJA. They apparently like having me here, go figure.
Unions brought pilots the Seniority System, which pays, for instance, senior captains more than junior captains for doing the same job. This drives up the costs of a mature company and opens the door to the ValueJets and XOJets of the world who can compete by employing junior pilots in their startup. When the older company gradually loses ground due to this seniority overhead problem, where do the pilots go?
The concept of Seniority amazes me. Why should I make more in 2013 than a more junior captain? Our cost of living is the same. If a rival company with a seniority system wants to hire me away from NJA, they can't because I would have to start as an FO. FlexJet can't compete for my allegedly wonderful flying skills because of the seniority system. Delta can't vie for my services. Bummer.
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I believe your imperfect system is an Ayn Rand fantasy land. What it would actually look like is Lord of the Fries.
 
Indeed. Without the contract forcing their hand, Sokol and his minions would have had us eating out of vending machines and doing recurrent training on our days off by the end of his first year. Count on it.
 
Lord of the FRIES? As in "y'all want fries with that?"

Talk about a Freudian slip....:laugh:
 
Secret Squirrel said:
I believe your imperfect system is an Ayn Rand fantasy land. What it would actually look like is Lord of the Fries.
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Is that different than the fantasy land found here?
 
CA1900 said:
Indeed. Without the contract forcing their hand, Sokol and his minions would have had us eating out of vending machines and doing recurrent training on our days off by the end of his first year. Count on it.
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Absolutely not. We would leave and do other things, many of us, enough that Sokol would not have gone through with the vending machine scenario.
 
G4dude said:
Absolutely not. We would leave and do other things, many of us, enough that Sokol would not have gone through with the vending machine scenario.
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I prefer to work under a contract so my family and I can have some stability in our lives. I'm not a day laborer, moving from job to job.
 
G4dude said:
Absolutely not. We would leave and do other things, many of us, enough that Sokol would not have gone through with the vending machine scenario.
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One of our managers at Flops told one of my buds the other day during a disciplinary hearing, "There are 400 pilots out there right now, who want your job." Yea they are really scared of us all leaven right now.

So which is your favorite, Atlas Shrugged, or are you a Fountain Head kind of guy?
 
pilotyip said:
nice reality, but is does not match the posts of the underpaid, under appreciated NJ airplane drivers. I mean how can anyone live on $88k/yr as a F/O
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My neighbor is a grocery store manager for Publix. He made over $120,000 last year and was home with his kids every night.

I was away from home 190 nights last year. (the equivalent to just over 6 months)

$88K isn't commensurate with the training and experience level the pilots at NJ posess - not even close.

Considering our peers with similar experience and qualifications at other (less profitable) companies are deep in the mid $100's, then yes I do wonder "how can anyone live on $88k/yr as a F/O."
 
pilotyip said:
nice reality, but is does not match the posts of the underpaid, under appreciated NJ airplane drivers. I mean how can anyone live on $88k/yr as a F/O
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That figure is completely unsat for a self proclaimed "career destination" company. It's going to be a battle but when the dust settles in a few years hopefully we can secure an industry leading contract that fairly compensates its pilots for their job description and experience. We want our company to be wildly successful but management needs to realize that we aren't just units of a cost center. Most prefer the analogy of stakeholder in an enterprise in which many of us will remain long after this current EMT departs the property. Safety, service and professionalism aren't cheap.
 
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Blueridgeflyer said:
That figure is completely unsat for a self proclaimed "career destination" company.
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It's also exaggerated. 88K is the 10th-year FO payscale, in the >40K payscale. Very few people are able to get those slots.

I'm a 7th-year FO, and I'm making $75K. Or about $67K in 2007 dollars, when this contract was signed. It's not poverty wages by any means, but it's nowhere near where it should be.
 
IMO, for a company like Netjets, 5th year SIC's should be in the range of atleast $110-120K...On the 7/7..More for the 18 day guys....

NJA typically profits more than major airlines, and that is what the major FO's typically bring in.. Now with new contracts being signed, FO's (and CPT's of course!) are beginning to see improvements in their income at the Legacies...

The exodus of SIC's should begin at NJA sometime in the near future... Unless there are serious commuting issues, the money is just better at the Legacies not to consider trying to moving on....

Only problem will be the thousands of other qualified regional guys doing the same thing.
 
BentOver said:
IMO, for a company like Netjets, 5th year SIC's should be in the range of atleast $110-120K...On the 7/7..More for the 18 day guys....

NJA typically profits more than major airlines, and that is what the major FO's typically bring in.. Now with new contracts being signed, FO's (and CPT's of course!) are beginning to see improvements in their income at the Legacies...

The exodus of SIC's should begin at NJA sometime in the near future... Unless there are serious commuting issues, the money is just better at the Legacies not to consider trying to moving on....

Only problem will be the thousands of other qualified regional guys doing the same thing.
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I agree with all of this except your FO pay desires. How do we compete with XO and Flex and FLOPS paying FOs like that? We will lose almost all our FOs, but will hire more just like 'em, I suspect. If not, then FO pay will have to go up, which is great as long as our competitors pay THEIR FOs approximately the same.
 
Praetorian said:
One of our managers at Flops told one of my buds the other day during a disciplinary hearing, "There are 400 pilots out there right now, who want your job." Yea they are really scared of us all leaven right now.

So which is your favorite, Atlas Shrugged, or are you a Fountain Head kind of guy?
Click to expand...

I didn't care for The Fountainhead. Atlas Shrugged was awesome. Dagny Taggert rocks! Cheers!
 
Blueridgeflyer said:
That figure is completely unsat for a self proclaimed "career destination" company. It's going to be a battle but when the dust settles in a few years hopefully we can secure an industry leading contract that fairly compensates its pilots for their job description and experience. We want our company to be wildly successful but management needs to realize that we aren't just units of a cost center. Most prefer the analogy of stakeholder in an enterprise in which many of us will remain long after this current EMT departs the property. Safety, service and professionalism aren't cheap.
Click to expand...

The only way we will see FO pay go up is when NJA starts having trouble hiring high quality pilots. The good news is, if that happens, our competitors will be having the same problem, so we won't be at a disadvantage pricewise.
 
Dude, ya know I luv ya amigo but how much we get paid is the proverbial drop in the bucket affecting our company's competitiveness. Scheduling and travel blow enough in a month to give us ALL a 5 percent raise right now. Every month.

Yes, I'm pulling that number out of my a$$ but you get the point.

We need to worry FAR more about productivity limitations imposed by the contract and the attitude it creates. Productivity focus was how Southwest led the way to the best pay in the industry.

NetJets can pay us more. A lot more, and still be competitive and make a profit. It's up to management to find the leaks in the boat. And the PAY and BENEFITS of the pilot group ARE NOT the leak.
 
G4dude said:
We will lose almost all our FOs, but will hire more just like 'em, I suspect. If not, then FO pay will have to go up, which is great as long as our competitors pay THEIR FOs approximately the same.
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In the very very short time NJA was on top of the aviation world (say 2007-roughly 2009), there weren't alot of options for a regional guy to move on to. Limited hiring by SWA and JB, majors had few open doors...

Cue Netjets.. For RJ Captains it was about the same pay. For RJ FO's it was a pay increase. Plus the added bonus of the "you'll be a Captain in 3 years" and the ever famous "Welcome to the last job you'll ever have!" ....

Now fast forward to today:

Legacy carriers are all getting some form of an improved contract. Delta just got a significant raise, USAir is about to see increases pending an AA merger. Continental just got a raise. And for the most part it seems as if things are on the up and up at most, if not all Legacies...

Meanwhile, NJA has completely stagnated. Upgrades are an undetermined 10+++ years. FO pay is not even close to the potential one can make at a Legacy. Not to mention very limited schedule flexibility.

Not only will NJA lose many pilots to the airlines. NJA will never see the quality of newhires they were accustom to in 2007 and beyond. (I recently met an international heavy pilot from Japan who said "oh yeah I applied to NJA in 2008 after a furlough, didn't make the cut." ) *IF* Netjets ever hires again, they will see less and less experienced jet operators and more guys just coming off their first turbine gig flying boxes between SMF and SLC. (no offense).:beer: Netjets is once again going to be a stepping stone for guys to build some jet time to help get them to a Major airline. With no chance of upgrade it's the sad reality.

Routinely the guys I fly with today either have never heard of Netjets, or they vaguely know it's some form of corporate outfit. Netjets is off the radar these days.

BTW, Netjets did VERY VERY well with an fractional leading contract that paid much more than their counterparts..
 
pilotyip said:
nice reality, but is does not match the posts of the underpaid, under appreciated NJ airplane drivers. I mean how can anyone live on $88k/yr as a F/O
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Not everyone wants to live in YIP, where the COL is dirt cheap....88K doesn't go very far in alot of the country.
 
jetlag7 said:
My neighbor is a grocery store manager for Publix. He made over $120,000 last year and was home with his kids every night.

I was away from home 190 nights last year. (the equivalent to just over 6 months)

$88K isn't commensurate with the training and experience level the pilots at NJ posess - not even close.

Considering our peers with similar experience and qualifications at other (less profitable) companies are deep in the mid $100's, then yes I do wonder "how can anyone live on $88k/yr as a F/O."
Click to expand...
Then become a Food Store Manager, if you fly because you like to it is a great job. You know the rest
 

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