NJ Recalls

[G4dude]

Yea and what bugs me is, Management protections for substandard pilots that kiss azz!!

Goes both ways G4

I just fly planes. Management hardly knows who I am. I hope.

 

[superfly]

Recall

2017


Good luck all, airlines are a better bet now.

 

[imacdog]

Where did you see 2017?

 

[BentOver]

Probably just the yearly "push back" of the estimated recall... It went from 2012 to 2013 to 2015, and now maybe 2017....

Management doesn't want to just come out and say.. Hey guys, don't expect recalls (or upgrades) until a decade from now.. It wouldn't look good for them.. So they just "adjust" things year by year so it is not as noticeable, or news worthy....

 

[imacdog]

I was just curious if it was coming from the company or the union, or if it was just a WAG. I'm so used to the mushroom treatment from the union that I wouldn't be surprised if it was something official circulating in CMH.

 

[jetlag7]

I was just curious if it was coming from the company or the union, or if it was just a WAG. I'm so used to the mushroom treatment from the union that I wouldn't be surprised if it was something official circulating in CMH.

As of this week, the union is under "new leadership." I'm optimistic communication with our brothers and sisters "on the outside looking in" will improve.

That being said, the only group who has ever made statements on record regarding additional furloughs or recalls has been company management. Statements from the union on these subjects has always been in response to something that was already released by company management.

 

[imacdog]

That would be a welcome surprise.

 

[BentOver]

As of this week, the union is under "new leadership." I'm optimistic communication with our brothers and sisters "on the outside looking in" will improve.

That being said, the only group who has ever made statements on record regarding additional furloughs or recalls has been company management. Statements from the union on these subjects has always been in response to something that was already released by company management.

Not entirely true... there have been a couple Union (or maybe former Union people?) Who, while trying to get us to stop "complaining", came right out and said not to get our hopes up.. And that it's going to be many years (paraphrasing).. Usually this was in regards to extended days, 18 day schedules, Msg. Board access etc discussions... If I remember, it didn't go over well, and as far as I know those certain people are no longer in their positions??

I think R.F. layed out the reasons in his dubious posts about why we were all full of s.hit, as he smuggly detailed the delivery schedule, past delivery rates from the good years etc,.. And if memory serves me correctly I believe he emphatically stated there would most likely be furloughs this Spring....

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Not entirely true... there have been a couple Union (or maybe former Union people?) Who, while trying to get us to stop "complaining", came right out and said not to get our hopes up.. And that it's going to be many years (paraphrasing).. Usually this was in regards to extended days, 18 day schedules, Msg. Board access etc discussions... If I remember, it didn't go over well, and as far as I know those certain people are no longer in their positions??

I think R.F. layed out the reasons in his dubious posts about why we were all full of s.hit, as he smuggly detailed the delivery schedule, past delivery rates from the good years etc,.. And if memory serves me correctly I believe he emphatically stated there would most likely be furloughs this Spring....

He is one of the blustery ones I always ignore on the message boards. I trust my own professional instincts and experience to make judgements as to the health and prospects of a career at NJA. There most likely will not be another furlough. I think you'll likely see recalls in 2015 - 16. There are a variety of reasons I feel confident of this. Sales will begin to hit full stride sometime in the near future and guys will be bailing to more lucrative positions when legacy hiring ramps up. I am at a crossroad....would like to remain at NJA but we need substantial gains to meet my own financial goals. With that being said, this is not a bad place to work and I hope that those who wish to return are given the opportunity in short order. In the mean time I will do everything in my power to help this group achieve a fair and lucrative contract. It's time to impose our will on management.

 

[BentOver]

Yeah I never listened to a word that guy said. He came off as very very arrogant and matter of fact. Like he knew more than everyone else...

Good luck with negotiations. I hope it works out. As it stands, I'll make more second year here than I would have returning as a 10 year SIC on the 18 day. It's a no brainer not to return if I still could.

After seeing the # of a/c losses and potential delivery rates, along with most likely more a/c losses due to disposals. I feel attrition by current SIC's is the absolute only way NJA recalls by 2015... And that would be just for the most senior furloughees... Anyone towrds the botttom is looking at many more years.

Unfortunately even with the hiring at Majors, they will still be able to be very picky. The Legacy I ended up at had no problem turning away many many qualified candidates. It would be nice if anyone who wanted to go could, but I don't think it is going to be a mass exodus. maybe a trickle? but some attrition is better than none. On the other hand, returning because of attrition only means the job isn't worth what it used to be.

 

[LAZYB]

Probably just the yearly "push back" of the estimated recall... It went from 2012 to 2013 to 2015, and now maybe 2017....

Management doesn't want to just come out and say.. Hey guys, don't expect recalls (or upgrades) until a decade from now.. It wouldn't look good for them.. So they just "adjust" things year by year so it is not as noticeable, or news worthy....

Hansell is investigating UAVs.

A drone at top, directing drones. Perfect harmony.

 

[superfly]

Recall

2017 is from the company, keep in mind they are painting two pictures; first sales are up and profits great, next is economy and we're too expensive. This is management union busting 101.

Realitically recalls will probably be sooner, but don't hold on hope if a better job is available.

 

[pilotyip]

This is management union busting 101.

And when union demands can not be meet and the union puts the company out of business, are the union people called "company busters"?

 

[ASH]

+1.....

 

[BentOver]

And when union demands can not be meet and the union puts the company out of business, are the union people called "company busters"?

Wow, you really have lost touch with reality.

When a company posts $200+million dollar profits, buys billions of dollars worth of a/c. Has millions running through it every day. I think increases to the contract are not out of the question. Especially for SIC's who's top pay will not top $100k.

I know for someone like yourself, who has never worked for a respectable company, getting decent pay and work rules is probably something you've never experienced. But for the rest of us professionals, getting a salary and benefits above that of your average high school educated person, is not too much to ask.

And what's your interest in NJA anyways? Dreaming of being able to work at a respectable company?

 

[OPECJet]

Heard things are starting to move over there again, but through terminations this time. Hostage taking 101.

 

[G4dude]

Wow, you really have lost touch with reality.

When a company posts $200+million dollar profits, buys billions of dollars worth of a/c. Has millions running through it every day. I think increases to the contract are not out of the question. Especially for SIC's who's top pay will not top $100k.

I know for someone like yourself, who has never worked for a respectable company, getting decent pay and work rules is probably something you've never experienced. But for the rest of us professionals, getting a salary and benefits above that of your average high school educated person, is not too much to ask.

And what's your interest in NJA anyways? Dreaming of being able to work at a respectable company?

Get that, YIP? You are only a Professional if you subscribe to the Union mentality. Even if the Union demands put the company out of business, don't you know.

 

[BentOver]

No G4..you are a professional if you have enough respect for yourself to demand a nice living... Maybe it's not a popular view, but being a NJA pilot or a major airline pilot is a good profession.. A highly skilled profession.. Some pilots may think they are simply bus drivers.. But it's too bad for them that they don't take enough pride in themselves or their choosen profession...

I don't think we are doctors.. Or on their same level.. But we should be/are near the top of the food chain in terms of jobs and QOL. Someone like YIP has never worked for a highly compensated or highly respected company... I'm sorry, but I'm worth more than whatever the types of companies he's worked for pays...OR offers for QOL.

It may be fine for him, but in that case he can go to the "fly by night sh.itbag cargo operator" message board and spew his trash... I'm determined to make more than someone with zero skills can make..

 

[realityman]

Get that, YIP? You are only a Professional if you subscribe to the Union mentality. Even if the Union demands put the company out of business, don't you know.

Just curious, what union demands has our union made yet? You seem convinced that what we will ask will be unsustainable by the company.

We are posting over $200 million in profits for the past couple years. IN ADDITION, we have paid down nearly half of $2 billion in debt in just 2 years. When that debt is paid off in about 2 or 3 more years, then that money (by my calculations close to $500 million/year) will then be moved from the 'debt repayment' column to the 'profit' column on top of the already $200 million in profit.

If we were to get a raise of $90,000 for each pilot (no, i do not believe we'll get anywhere near that much), it would cost the company about $100 million. Considering it will probably take AT LEAST two years to hash this contract out, and our debt will be about paid off by then, what makes you think we'll be asking for anything that will put NJA out of business?

Of course, there are lots of factors, the biggest being what the economy does and how badly our government puts it to the rich and businesses, but as things are likely to improve, we take new aircraft, and perhaps evolve our business model further to meet an ever-changing market, we're likely to see NJA do at least fairly well. We made OVER $200 million in profit in a crappy economy with a shrinking fleet and remaining owners flying less hours.

My crystal ball isn't any better than anyone else's. These are just my thoughts. But I just find it funny that your implication is that the union will be the death of our company.

It's not about the union. It's about management, and if they know how to make sales.

Will us getting, say, a 35% raise really raise the cost of our product? I doubt it. Why? Because when I started with NJA (EJA back in those days) we were about 40% higher than charter. And we did well. Over the years, I have CONSISTENTLY heard that we're 35% more expensive than our competitors. Just recently, we were told in recurrent that we are 35% more expensive. Why is this significant? Because they have already made HUGE cuts in operating expenses across the board. We're talking well over $100 million in cost improvements. Heck, I'd bet just the savings in crewfood costs due to the 'IRS' ruling about taxing per diem with crews now mostly ordering only 2 meals a day has to amount to 10's of millions in savings. And yet, in spite of those huge savings, somehow we are STILL 35% more expensive than our competitors.

So I'm not worried that increasing our compensation package will cause our product to become more expensive.

 

[OPECJet]

Management will sink NJA quicker than NJASAP could dream. That 35% over the competition is why. NJA doesn't offer anything over the other operators. Recovery time my ass.

 

[gunfyter]

We are posting over $200 million in profits for the past couple years. IN ADDITION, we have paid down nearly half of $2 billion in debt in just 2 years. When that debt is paid off in about 2 or 3 more years, then that money (by my calculations close to $500 million/year) will then be moved from the 'debt repayment' column to the 'profit' column on top of the already $200 million in profit.

This is incorrect...

Profit is not substantially affected by paying off debt... one way or the other.

To demonstrate this consider the case where you applied 100% of your income to pay down your personal debt...

What was your income? Did it change by applying it to debt?

 

[imacdog]

I think you're confusing "profit" with "revenue".

 

[realityman]

Let's say NJA's yearly revenue is $300 million. And let's say NJA's operating expenses are $100 million. Also, NJA currently is paying $100 million every year to pay off money borrowed to buy planes. The other $100 million is profit.

Once the debt is paid off, then wouldn't they have $100 million in operating expenses, and the other $200 million is now all profit?

I realize this is a simplified version, but just trying to understand your points.

 

[notaNJApilot]

You do realize companies are in business to make a profit and not break even, right?
If you invest in the stock market would you enjoy 1% return on your investments?

 

[jetlag7]

You do realize companies are in business to make a profit and not break even, right?
If you invest in the stock market would you enjoy 1% return on your investments?

Let me guess.... you're a member of the "Who gives a damn about customers, the shareholders are King" crowd?

When you sacrifice delivering a quality product to your customers in exchange for shareholder ROI, things start to go downhill. Companies that embrace this twisted philosophy never remain in business for long.

 

[notaNJApilot]

Absolutely not. I do not see how increasing costs (pilot salaries, office salaries, etc.) will improve service. Some of those costs would be passed on to the customers, making our product unaffordable. We need to lower costs to keep the customers we have and attract new ones. When we get new customers, we'll need more aircraft, and more pilots to fly them.

I am a fan of profit sharing. I hope that gets negotiated into the contract.

 

[realityman]

You do realize companies are in business to make a profit and not break even, right?
If you invest in the stock market would you enjoy 1% return on your investments?

You do realize that I fly to make a living, not provide a great return to investors.

Keeping our clients happy will keep the business going. I could care less about how much ROI the investors get.

Profit sharing? Yeah, sounds great. Especially since we've NEVER seen our company try to hide profits from us (that was sarcasm).

 

[G4dude]

This is a good conversation! I believe NJA is the most expensive of all the players in our arena. That is of concern to me. I believe Unions, even a pretty good one like NJASAP, are not good for long term flexibility, productivity, and shareholders' return on investment. By the way, ROI is a REALLY BIG DEAL. The investors own the company. They want to make money. If we don't make them enough money in comparison to other companies and investments, the investors will take their money away from us and put it somewhere else.
Would I like a raise? Of course! Am I worried a pay raise would price us out of the marketplace? Yes. I have had eleven companies go out of business on me, so I am rather sensitive about these things. My job experiences don't mean I am right, but they do explain my bias against a higher cost business model, and my unease about unions, even one as reasonable as NJASAP.

 

[realityman]

G4, that's a reasonable reply. But let's use half my original example. Suppose we all get a $45000 raise. That is about $50 million for NJA. Do you really think that amount means a hill of beans to our costs? If fuel goes up $.15/gallon it will increase our costs by tens of millions of dollars. And yet no one blinks about it. The owners pay the (for them) small increase and continue on. But somehow a similar increase for increased compensation for us is going to cause us to shut down?

I am not suggesting we can just pile on massive increases in costs and it'll have no effect on the company. But I think reasonable increases for us (we can debate 'reasonable' some other time) won't cause the our owners, the company, or ROI any serious difficulty.

But hey, it's all just opinion anyway. It is a good discussion.
Gotta go!

 

[gunfyter]

Let's say NJA's yearly revenue is $300 million. And let's say NJA's operating expenses are $100 million. Also, NJA currently is paying $100 million every year to pay off money borrowed to buy planes. The other $100 million is profit.

Once the debt is paid off, then wouldn't they have $100 million in operating expenses, and the other $200 million is now all profit?

I realize this is a simplified version, but just trying to understand your points.

No. This is incorrect. Its now $200 M Positive cash flow... instead of $100M in positive cashflow. Thats a good thing.

But in your example there was a $200M profit before and after liquidating the debt. No change in profit by paying off debt.