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NJ Recalls

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unless you've had a lot of retirements
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Don't you mean deaths? Last I heard (including on this thread), these old b*stards are staying put...still. Least productive/most expensive labor who will not leave voluntarily.

Kinda curious- is FSI still just letting these old-timers slide through training?..or are they at least holding them to the standard they should be? The guy they paired me with (who was a PIC who'd been at NJA for like 20yrs) for my 6mo recurrent after hire (which was a PIC pc--for whatever reason they do that) was SO bad; he was making callouts that either were never NJA SOP or had been changed 5 yrs prior..the examiner had to correct him each time he said the wrong thing--was very annoying. I gave him the controls to brief the approach and within like 10 seconds he had busted altitude and almost stalled the airplane. Then we got to his checkride...
It was so bad, I was SURE he'd be a bust. Nope--"good job guys..see you next time". WTF!!?!?!
 
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Praetorian said:
Now all you have to do is get the rest of the gang to feel that way too.

To many happy jobbers out there.
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And I have been working on that. Quietly. With respect of their beliefs. With facts. With rational, principled arguments.

What has to stop is the resentment, jealousy, name-calling, shouting, derision, and "get-even-with-em-ism" that has been coming from a large chunk of the membership for a LONG time.

It causes the objects of that scorn to push back--even against initiatives that are probably in their long-term best interests. Funniest thing is, the ones who have shouted the loudest and harshest against the GLC are the ones pounding the table hardest demanding our "unity."

Humans don't respond well to that.
 
BuckMurdock1 said:
Don't you mean deaths? Last I heard (including on this thread), these old b*stards are staying put...still. Least productive/most expensive labor who will not leave voluntarily.

Kinda curious- is FSI still just letting these old-timers slide through training?..or are they at least holding them to the standard they should be? The guy they paired me with (who was a PIC who'd been at NJA for like 20yrs) for my 6mo recurrent after hire (which was a PIC pc--for whatever reason they do that) was SO bad; he was making callouts that either were never NJA SOP or had been changed 5 yrs prior..the examiner had to correct him each time he said the wrong thing--was very annoying. I gave him the controls to brief the approach and within like 10 seconds he had busted altitude and almost stalled the airplane. Then we got to his checkride...
It was so bad, I was SURE he'd be a bust. Nope--"good job guys..see you next time". WTF!!?!?!
Click to expand...
He may be slow but he's ahead of you.
 
gutshotdraw said:
And I have been working on that. Quietly. With respect of their beliefs. With facts. With rational, principled arguments.

What has to stop is the resentment, jealousy, name-calling, shouting, derision, and "get-even-with-em-ism" that has been coming from a large chunk of the membership for a LONG time.

It causes the objects of that scorn to push back--even against initiatives that are probably in their long-term best interests. Funniest thing is, the ones who have shouted the loudest and harshest against the GLC are the ones pounding the table hardest demanding our "unity."

Humans don't respond well to that.
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I'm listening. Heck, if us all getting a raise won't put NJA at a competitive disadvantage because all pilots will be paid more due to the shortage, then BRING ON the raise! I could certainly use the money, and my FOs really need a big raise.
Gutshot, it sounds like you have been kinda battered and bruised at NJA. I was not aware of it, could you elucidate for the class?
 
nj is 35% more expensive because there are about 10 guys upstairs paying themselves about $100 million per year.

thats where the pay cut needs to start. turds roll down hill they say?...id say the top is where the turd starts
 
G4dude said:
I'm listening. Heck, if us all getting a raise won't put NJA at a competitive disadvantage because all pilots will be paid more due to the shortage, then BRING ON the raise! I could certainly use the money, and my FOs really need a big raise.
Gutshot, it sounds like you have been kinda battered and bruised at NJA. I was not aware of it, could you elucidate for the class?
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You don't read the union board much, do you?
 
gutshotdraw said:
Reality check time:

Any NJ SIC under the age of 40 should be HAMMERING the major airline application process.

Any junior PIC (lower than 50% on the list) under the age of 40 should be SERIOUSLY considering a major.

Any of the 495 STILL without a gig should hit these regionals to at least get current. Sadly, NONE of the 495 should plan on coming back.

Any PIC or SIC over 60 should be tidying up their retirement planning and spending habits.

Any PIC or SIC relatively senior between 40-60 should be working their networks, polishing up the logbook and the resume, and keeping an open mind when perusing job openings they see on line and hear about from contacts.

You have to NOT CARE if the Brain Trust threatens to close the shop. There ARE jobs out there and if Berkshire is dumb enough to close it down over an extra 40-50 million, there will be ANOTHER 3000-5000 rich people looking for pilots to fly their jets. You know, the jets they will pay for with the lawsuit money they will get from Berkshire for leaving them high and dry.

I won't take a nickel less for what I do and, in fact, I think I'm worth more. I am DEFINITELY no rah-rah union guy but I won't HESITATE to vote no and I won't hesitate to "take a little vacation" when push comes to shove.

G4Dude- I like you amigo but you and a number of our colleagues in the GLC need to get over the idea that this is a family. It AIN'T Richie's Netjets anymore and Okatie is GONE. This is BUSINESS and the industry dynamics are on OUR side for across the board improvements in pay. I'll agree there are some productivity problems that need addressing but inflation is eating away at our frozen pay every day and it's time to fix it.
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+1 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Great post GSD!
 
G4dude said:
I'm listening. Heck, if us all getting a raise won't put NJA at a competitive disadvantage because all pilots will be paid more due to the shortage, then BRING ON the raise! I could certainly use the money, and my FOs really need a big raise.
Gutshot, it sounds like you have been kinda battered and bruised at NJA. I was not aware of it, could you elucidate for the class?
Click to expand...


so now all of a sudden you desire a raise?

read below..
 
G4dude said:
I am ALWAYS in favor of a raise, unless it makes my employer less competitive and endangers our jobs.
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Nice touch on reality on FI. This is not a normal union response tying wages to productivity. It must be understood with the increased cost on companies coming out of DC, raises will be harder to fund
 
gutshotdraw said:
You don't read the union board much, do you?
Click to expand...

Never. My own experience at NJA continues to be very good, so I was wondering what is the problem. The people I am flying with, and I have not flown with you in several years, seem to be happy too, so I am guessing you have had something happen, or are in possession of info not available to many of us. Because you are a smart, rational honest guy, I would like to know what, in your opinion, is going on that should concern me. Your opinion matters to me, where the Union hard core's maunderings don't. Hit me on the BB or private message if you want to stay under the radar, and Happy New Year!
 
pilotyip said:
This is not a normal union response tying wages to productivity. It must be understood with the increased cost on companies coming out of DC, raises will be harder to fund
Click to expand...

...and the continues sluggishness of the world economy, due to over spending, over taxation and over regulation. You are exactly correct, yip.
 
BuckMurdock1 said:
Don't you mean deaths? Last I heard (including on this thread), these old b*stards are staying put...still. Least productive/most expensive labor who will not leave voluntarily.

Kinda curious- is FSI still just letting these old-timers slide through training?..or are they at least holding them to the standard they should be? The guy they paired me with (who was a PIC who'd been at NJA for like 20yrs) for my 6mo recurrent after hire (which was a PIC pc--for whatever reason they do that) was SO bad; he was making callouts that either were never NJA SOP or had been changed 5 yrs prior..the examiner had to correct him each time he said the wrong thing--was very annoying. I gave him the controls to brief the approach and within like 10 seconds he had busted altitude and almost stalled the airplane. Then we got to his checkride...
It was so bad, I was SURE he'd be a bust. Nope--"good job guys..see you next time". WTF!!?!?!
Click to expand...
Of course, you mentioned this to pro-standards or the fitness for duty committee right? Did you raise your concerns with the pilot? Or did you just come on FI.com and throw ALL the "seasoned" pilots under the bus because ONE GUY didn't perform well?

I'm tired of bashing the older guys. This is, and should be, handled on a case by case basis.

I'm 36 years old, had a 67 year old sim-partner who didn't perform well in my last recurrent, and handled it through the proper channels which began with a heart to heart with him.

Hopefully, we'll all be 67 someday, and who knows what our situation will be by then. By that time, I will have had 41 years with my company (God willing) and will NEVER judge why a pilot decides to work or retire.

In short, did you ever consider that YOU may NEED to work when you're 70? Something to think about.
 
fischman said:
Of course, you mentioned this to pro-standards or the fitness for duty committee right? Did you raise your concerns with the pilot? Or did you just come on FI.com and throw ALL the "seasoned" pilots under the bus because ONE GUY didn't perform well?

I'm tired of bashing the older guys. This is, and should be, handled on a case by case basis.

I'm 36 years old, had a 67 year old sim-partner who didn't perform well in my last recurrent, and handled it through the proper channels which began with a heart to heart with him.

Hopefully, we'll all be 67 someday, and who knows what our situation will be by then. By that time, I will have had 41 years with my company (God willing) and will NEVER judge why a pilot decides to work or retire.

In short, did you ever consider that YOU may NEED to work when you're 70? Something to think about.
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This is all easy to say when you are already a PIC at NJ...your opinion is biased. My opinion may be biased as well, but mine is the safer of the two. The fact is most people approaching 70 can barely drive a car safely, let alone be in command of a jet. If you need to work when you are 70, go apply to Walmart. People's lives are more important than some geriatric's personal wants and needs.
On a separate note, I congratulate you on your timing with NetJets...
 
I don't have the time or inclination to do the research, but I'll bet that 65-70 have a better driving record than many younger age groups. CFI, you need to go sit on a beach or something. You are wound much too tight. Stay that way and you won't need to worry about what you are doing at 65. You won't live that long.
Helm
 
This is all easy to say when you are already a PIC at NJ...your opinion is biased. My opinion may be biased as well, but mine is the safer of the two. The fact is most people approaching 70 can barely drive a car safely, let alone be in command of a jet. If you need to work when you are 70, go apply to Walmart. People's lives are more important than some geriatric's personal wants and needs.
On a separate note, I congratulate you on your timing with NetJets...
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I was going to formulate a rebuttal to Fischman, then I read this post and it kinda says it all.
And no; I didn't go to pro-standards (the guy insisted on buying me a steak dinner after because he felt so bad putting all the undue stress on us). Another aspect is that he didn't want to study together at my request. And Fisch, is it really primarily my job to go 'turn him in'? Isn't it the examiners job to 'examine'? I definitely got the impression from FSI the few months I was there before furlough that there are two standards: one for the younger guys (like you and me), and one for the old-timers (like the sim partners both you and I referenced). Was the examiner even close to busting him in your case? Probably not.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not "bashing". Some of the people I most admire are in their 70s..and part of the reason I admire them is that they can recognize their limitations and limitations which father time brings to the table (which, IMHO, are inescapable).

You still want to fly at that age? Go do it!!-- in your own airplane. You still want to work at that age (I pray I don't have to)? Go do it!!-- in a job that doesn't involve you commanding a jet hurdling through the air at 500mph.
 
BuckMurdock1 said:
I was going to formulate a rebuttal to Fischman, then I read this post and it kinda says it all.
And no; I didn't go to pro-standards (the guy insisted on buying me a steak dinner after because he felt so bad putting all the undue stress on us). Another aspect is that he didn't want to study together at my request. And Fisch, is it really primarily my job to go 'turn him in'? Isn't it the examiners job to 'examine'? I definitely got the impression from FSI the few months I was there before furlough that there are two standards: one for the younger guys (like you and me), and one for the old-timers (like the sim partners both you and I referenced). Was the examiner even close to busting him in your case? Probably not.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not "bashing". Some of the people I most admire are in their 70s..and part of the reason I admire them is that they can recognize their limitations and limitations which father time brings to the table (which, IMHO, are inescapable).

You still want to fly at that age? Go do it!!-- in your own airplane. You still want to work at that age (I pray I don't have to)? Go do it!!-- in a job that doesn't involve you commanding a jet hurdling through the air at 500mph.
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I got a steak dinner too.
 
I think its all about getting the Left Seat and nothing else ...
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BTW- I'm in the left seat on the A320 after getting furloughed from NJA & I know that I'll probably NEVER be recalled even if I wanted to; so this notion is not true in my case.
My observation & argument is strictly in the interest of safety for your operation. I hope it doesn't take a few crashes to bring this issue to light "officially".
 
You upgraded over there in 3 years? Wow, didn't realize they were moving folks up so fast...
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Yeah- but I'll be one of the most Jr. CAs (and on RSV) now for several yrs. We recently announced some drastic growth-stoppage plans to try to get profitable.
 
BuckMurdock1 said:
Yeah- but I'll be one of the most Jr. CAs (and on RSV) now for several yrs. We recently announced some drastic growth-stoppage plans to try to get profitable.
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It is really nice to see and hear about folks who got furloughed from NJA and found good jobs elsewhere. I wish more stories like yours came to light.
 

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