Netjets Announces Aircraft Order

[Blueridgeflyer]

I am at the bottom of the list and I would love for them to furlough me. With all of the training cycles coming up I don't see this happening. They will put the threat out there but it won't get the response they are looking for. Then again I could be wrong.

The suspense is killing me.

The discussion of additional furloughs has been omnipresent since the Fall of '10 although primarily articulated through NJASAP. The company has said that there are no plans to RIF "at this time" for several years. I think the window of a realistic furlough has closed for a variety of reasons. Sure they probably could, but why spend the perceived negotiating capital now before sect 6?

 

[CALRepublic]

The discussion of additional furloughs has been omnipresent since the Fall of '10 although primarily articulated through NJASAP. The company has said that there are no plans to RIF "at this time" for several years. I think the window of a realistic furlough has closed for a variety of reasons. Sure they probably could, but why spend the perceived negotiating capital now before sect 6?

back in the late 80s a reporter for the NYTimes interviewd some airline CEO, I believe it was Eastern's. He asked the CEO if he was "worried about his pilots complaining aobut the contract"... He said " they're pilots, I don't worry when they complain, I worry when they're quite"

these guys are going to b*tch no matter what. That's what pilots do.

 

[realityman]

The discussion of additional furloughs has been omnipresent since the Fall of '10 although primarily articulated through NJASAP. The company has said that there are no plans to RIF "at this time" for several years. I think the window of a realistic furlough has closed for a variety of reasons. Sure they probably could, but why spend the perceived negotiating capital now before sect 6?

Wrong.

Too much involved for me to bother with a lengthy post explaining everything, but JH started talking furloughs at the management 'meet and greet' during recurrent less than 5 days after the completion of the Eboard elections. Very suspicious timing. But again, not going into that part of it.

The point is, yes, the company is already throwing out the possibility of furloughs if we don't give concessions.

 

[NJAowner]

Not justifying it -- but if concenssions are needed it is because business is down -- not growing as people may think or be led to believe. Retaining existing owners should be one of the highest priorities of management.

 

[realityman]

Not justifying it -- but if concenssions are needed it is because business is down -- not growing as people may think or be led to believe. Retaining existing owners should be one of the highest priorities of management.

I certainly agree with your last sentence!

As for concessions, not gonna happen. If the company is shrinking, then furloughs may actually be necessary. But concessions will not save anything. Just look at the airlines. Every time management has promised no furloughs if concessions are given, when concessions were given, furloughs happened a short time later anyway.

Let me ask you this. Has your contract with Netjets changed at all? Have your management fees gone down? No? Well, part of what those management fees cover is pilot salaries and benefits. So if there are fewer owners, we may need fewer pilots, but the money coming from management fees should still be sufficient to cover at least the current salary and benefits package of the pilots who remain. If not, then the company has bigger problems than anything concessions will fix.

Profits recovered from labor concessions will not be a real business win for Netjets. If the only way Netjets can survive is with labor concessions then the company is already doomed. I'd rather go out making full pay and benefits (would allow me to save more for unemployment) than give concessions to a dieing company.

At any rate, despite the shrinkage of the company, they are posting profits. Don't see a need for concessions. Now, some will argue that they are cooking the books to show profits that aren't really there. Well, that may be true. Thing is, I have no way of verifying it one way or the other. All I can go on is the fact that the company says they are making money, even while shrinking. Therefore, I have no intention on giving a single thing back to a company that claims to be doing well.

 

[Praetorian]

Not justifying it -- but if concenssions are needed it is because business is down -- not growing as people may think or be led to believe. Retaining existing owners should be one of the highest priorities of management.

Historically management teams have used the threat of furlows to extract consessions from pilots unions.

But allowing these threats to work is much like negotiating with throrists who have taken hostages.

Besides, air carrier need for pilots has always been tied directly and almost exclusively to demand, not pfofitability.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I agree that concessions have never saved jobs in the aviation industry.

That aside, I still maintain there is a good chance the company will extend the contract for three years. Predictable costs and relative "labor peace" are helpful while trying desperately to maintain current owners.

We'll talk again in November to see if I'm right, or if we're screwed...

 

[imacdog]

If management wants labor peace then it's certainly going about it the wrong way.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Wrong.

Too much involved for me to bother with a lengthy post explaining everything, but JH started talking furloughs at the management 'meet and greet' during recurrent less than 5 days after the completion of the Eboard elections. Very suspicious timing. But again, not going into that part of it.

The point is, yes, the company is already throwing out the possibility of furloughs if we don't give concessions.

We are probably splitting hairs. The company has made no official announcement about additional furloughs. In fact, when pressed, they continue to tout the aforementioned disclaimer. JHs extemporaneous comments were pure conjecture that dealt with hypotheticals involving a potential section 6. I see nothing immenating from him that isn't fairly standard practice in the industry.

 

[LAZYB]

If I was to rely on the company "communication".... uke:

 

[gutshotdraw]

If management wants labor peace then it's certainly going about it the wrong way.

Hence the term "relative"

 

[Semore Butts]

Retaining existing owners should be one of the highest priorities of management

Well Sir, you know that, and we know that. It's obvious who doesn't?

Emphasis on sales would be another step in the right direction.

Take care Semore

 

[BentOver]

Well Sir, you know that, and we know that. It's obvious who doesn't?

Emphasis on sales would be another step in the right direction.

Take care Semore

badda bing, badda boom

Sales being down, demand being down, and a company shrinking is not a pilot problem outside of the pilots providing quality service. Management, specifically David Sokol, has stated that the pilot population is based on airframes, not the amount of money they expect us to give back to them.

D. Sokol made it clear it wasn't about money when he graciously ended our attempt to stave off furloughs back in summer 2009. Apparently Jordan Hansell's memory or history lesson didn't go back that far.. It is however to late (or too soon) to try to contradict the past and change their sob story and cry broke.:crying:

 

[rajflyboy]

You guys have it wrong.

The Phenom and Global will sell like hotcakes!

 

[ozpilot]

You guys have it wrong.

The Phenom and Global will sell like hotcakes!

Not sure about the Global, but I've seen the Netjets version of the 300. Very impressive airplane. If we can sell them at a price point similar to Options, I do believe they will sell .. like hot cakes.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Mmmmmmmm. Daddy like hotcakes. Globals, not so much....

 

[CL300Pilot]

So what is the Netjets version of the 300?

Not sure about the Global, but I've seen the Netjets version of the 300. Very impressive airplane. If we can sell them at a price point similar to Options, I do believe they will sell .. like hot cakes.

 

[rajflyboy]

Not sure about the Global, but I've seen the Netjets version of the 300. Very impressive airplane. If we can sell them at a price point similar to Options, I do believe they will sell .. like hot cakes.

Netjets will sell 150 of them no problem.

after all........ aircraft sales is 1/3rd of the profits of a fractional aircraft company.

Profits come from:

1. Monthly Management Fee's
2. Aircraft hourly fee's
3. "AIRCRAFT SALES"

 

[gret]

Don't you mean revenues?

Doubtful that there are any any profits in the mgmt and hourly fees.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Don't you mean revenues?

Doubtful that there are any any profits in the mgmt and hourly fees.

Aircraft returns exceeded aircraft sales net/net last year and we posted better than $200 million in profit so, yea, I'd say there is profit to be had in monthly management and occupied hourly fees. Not saying the books might not have been cooked a tad, however....

 

[brokeflyer]

books might not have been cooked a tad, however....

sokol would never do that....he's a man of integrity and deserves our respect.

 

[ozpilot]

sokol would never do that....he's a man of integrity and deserves our respect.

:laugh:

 

[rajflyboy]

Don't you mean revenues?

Doubtful that there are any any profits in the mgmt and hourly fees.

You are right.

Revenue which will hopefully end up as a profit

 

[NJAowner]

I've seen the Netjets version of the 300. Very impressive airplane. If we can sell them at a price point similar to Options, I do believe they will sell .. like hot cakes.

But that is the issue for NJA. The NJA Phenom costs 20+% more than a new FO Phenom, plus over $1000+ extra per hour more than FO in monthly and hourly fees. Plus FO has outfitted the cabin with 7 seats vs. NJA 6 seats.

At the Phenom's price point, these are huge differences.

 

[ghostrider64]

NJAOwner are you familiar with the recent GIV crash in France? I'm certain a charter by that company would be cheaper that both XO or NJA. Especially considering they had a CAPT on the plane that worked there several months for FREE.....

Sometimes paying more makes sense, especially when you know the crew flying, has no pressure to takeoff, if there is the least bit of concern over the flight being conducted safely, to include a no questions asked fatigued policy. That policy doesn't exist anywhere else in the industry, despite some operators telling you their crews won't fly tired...

But hey, money is money....

 

[gret]

NJAOwner are you familiar with the recent GIV crash in France? I'm certain a charter by that company would be cheaper that both XO or NJA. Especially considering they had a CAPT on the plane that worked there several months for FREE.....

Sometimes paying more makes sense, especially when you know the crew flying, has no pressure to takeoff, if there is the least bit of concern over the flight being conducted safely, to include a no questions asked fatigued policy. That policy doesn't exist anywhere else in the industry, despite some operators telling you their crews won't fly tired...

But hey, money is money....

Was Universal Jet Aviation an approved charter vendor for NJ or EJM?

NetJets doesn't have the market on safety cornered and you may be whistling past the graveyard with your comments.

You are also out of line with three people dead and attempting to capitalize on this sad fact. A little class at a time like this may be in order.

 

[NJAowner]

Ghost -- if you have read any of my posts I believe that to some extent -- you get what you pay of run aviation -- mainly in that the cheapest usually leaves something on the table somewhere. By the same token, there is no guarantee that the most expensive is the best either. In the totality of private aviation, XO, FO, Flex are in the high price end of the spectrum -- just not as expensive as NJA.

NJA does not have the market cornered on safety. NJA does apply a "cost to benefit ratio" analysis of when to do certain maintenance and repairs on its aircraft - it is not always safety first no matter what the cost. If that was the case NJA would immediately ground every fleet when a directive was issued and immediately make that repair before flying another owner, regardless of cost.

And as I brought up a month ago and got blasted, in I have found that FO and XO pilots are by a far margin more in compliance with the Part 135 pilot oxygen requirements than NJ pilots. I know the rule may not make sense, I now it is extremely uncomfortable, etc., but it is still the law and pilots still make the individual decision not to comply with it, and that widespread non-compliance is sanctioned by management. So please do not think NJA has the market cornered on safety.

After well more than 10 years drinking at the "kool aid" trough, my eyes are now more open.

 

[CA1900]

... it is still the law and pilots still make the individual decision not to comply with it, and that widespread non-compliance is sanctioned by management.

While I can't speak to any company-wide compliance issue as I only know what I see in my own cockpit, I can state that the last part is simply incorrect. Quite the opposite, in fact, and the issue has been discussed at virtually every training event I've attended. There's no "wink wink" or anything like that -- they're reiterating that it's the rule. Not sure where you got the idea that management sanctions noncompliance, as that's just not the case.

 

[ghostrider64]

NJAOwner...

I've no information on what you see in the cockpit with regards to Oxygen use. However you seem to understand regulations and are free to,ask the crew to comply at any time.

However I know for a fact that running crews for weeks on end leaves a lot on the safety table. XOJet allows crew to work 14 straight days, sound safe to you? Sleep deprivation is a major contributor to many accidents, not too mention inner crew dynamics, personalities, that fray after many days together.

As for some that seem to think talking about pilots ending up dead is poor form, I say it's a fact of life in aviation. Our job is to try our best to mitigate it. I've know over 30 people who've died in aircraft accidents. If you can't accept talking openly about it you should move on, because tomorrow someone else will make the same mistakes they did if you don't talk about it....

 

[jonjuan]

I've been saying for years, NJAowner ain't no owner. Read between the lines, guys.....He used to work for NJA and now one of the others.....