Netjets Announces Aircraft Order

[ultrarunner]

How much is a Challenger 300?

The same, if you're buying ONE!

NJA's press release indicates a 22.5M price tag per airframe copy. So, given that NJA is also throwing in larger airplanes in that order, all these airframes are heavily discounted with a ton of give-backs, such as spares, training, warranty, etc....

 

[Downwind]

The same, if you're buying ONE!

NJA's press release indicates a 22.5M price tag per airframe copy. So, given that NJA is also throwing in larger airplanes in that order, all these airframes are heavily discounted with a ton of give-backs, such as spares, training, warranty, etc....

What did we pay for the 680?

 

[NJAowner]

The economy will eventually recover but I would not expect fractional as an industry to ever be as large as it was in 2007. Fractional will always be around but its popularity probably peaked in 2007. Fractional ownership was and is a great idea. Fractional will not reach its prior peak not because it is bad but because someone is always “trying to build a better mousetrap”. For the most part NJA “built a better mousetrap” than traditional charter and grew the market for charter. Instead of running a capital intensive charter operation relying upon company owned planes, NJA got the “charter” customers to buy a piece of the plane and pay the fixed regardless of whether the owner actually used the plane. Great idea. Fractional ownership for NJA also eliminated the need and inconsistency of using managed planes on a charter certificate where the planes are all different types, ages and layouts, with differing degrees of safety and maintenance.

Fractional ownership for NJA seized upon the highly fragment and varied charter market. There was no “brand”, no reliability, no standardization, and a lack of confidence by customers and a lack of knowledge by customers. NJA created an industry and a brand which people who never chartered or who weren’t extremely happy with charter operations gained knowledge and became knowledgeable and comfortable with flying privately. It could have been done by buying many airplanes and running a standardized charter fleet but that was prohibitively expensive. So then came the brainstorm to have the customers be responsible for the acquisition and upkeep of the jets. For many years a potential owner had to wait many months to take delivery of his share. Absolutely brilliant. However, somewhere along the line as it became apparent that $$$ could be made buy buying the planes at wholesale prices and selling them in pieces at retail prices that NJA started to have inventory issues. Too many planes. Unfortunately, we know the rest of the story, and some of you know it all too well.

However, the market changed, and better mousetraps keep evolving. After many incarnations, XOJet has seized upon the idea of true “branded” charter, with all the attributes of a brand name. Others are going there as well. Many customers, such as myself, have reduced their shares and now use both fractional and “branded” charter. The advantage of fractional is I am guaranteed a plane when and where I need it. But actually, while it sounds good, I only need this guarantee for a few peak days of the year and some very irregular flights. When I have flexibility or time, I price out XOJet first – if the flight is less expensive than using my fractional share I fly XOJet. Quite frankly for most flights over approximately 2.5 hours XOJet is usually much less expensive. Branded charter can be less expensive (more efficient) because it has the ability to change prices or refuse flights for flights which are less desirable for it to fly (XOJet prices a 1.2 hour flight ridiculously expensive so it either gets a lot of $$$ for the flight or doesn’t fly it). Fractional does not have this ability. If the rental car business went fractional, Hertz would have to guarantee me a car when and where I needed it – it would need many more cars to serve all the owners – instead of just being able to say “sorry – all sold out that day”. Therefore, while “owners” may move a portion of their flights to branded charter (allowing these companies to “cherry pick” the most profitable flights of a fractional operator, while leaving the fractional provider with the very unprofitable Sandusky, Ohio to Ithaca, NY flight.

Fractional is here to stay. But I believe many flyers will have smaller fractions than they had in the past.

 

[NJAowner]

NJA was charging a $17.5MM for the 680 and $20.1 for the G200 a few years back. At the same time, Flex was charging slightly less for a new CL-300 than NJA was charging for the G-200.

 

[ultrarunner]

What did we pay for the 680?

What's a 680?

 

[Downwind]

What's a 680?

Citation Sovereign

 

[cldsfr79]

However, the market changed, and better mousetraps keep evolving. After many incarnations, XOJet has seized upon the idea of true “branded” charter, with all the attributes of a brand name. Others are going there as well. Many customers, such as myself, have reduced their shares and now use both fractional and “branded” charter. The advantage of fractional is I am guaranteed a plane when and where I need it. But actually, while it sounds good, I only need this guarantee for a few peak days of the year and some very irregular flights. When I have flexibility or time, I price out XOJet first – if the flight is less expensive than using my fractional share I fly XOJet. Quite frankly for most flights over approximately 2.5 hours XOJet is usually much less expensive. Branded charter can be less expensive (more efficient) because it has the ability to change prices or refuse flights for flights which are less desirable for it to fly (XOJet prices a 1.2 hour flight ridiculously expensive so it either gets a lot of $$$ for the flight or doesn’t fly it). Fractional does not have this ability.

Respectively:

There is a huge difference internally from XOJet, other "branded" providers, and NJA. There are many alternatives out there some charter companies charge the same price for a GV that NJA charges for a Sovereign. Price in aviation should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not saying that XOJet or other "branded" flyers are not safe, but are they converting their pilot training to part 121 (airline standards), do they have an Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) that allows pilots and workers to write up safety concern that is reviewed by the FAA and company so changes and training can take place, do "branded" flyers have FAA award winning maintenance programs, do charter companies and other fractionals have a half dozen FAA inspectors permanently on site to review every move we make (just like the airlines...you would be lucky if an FAA inspector showed up once in a while to a charter company to review what they really do), and do they have work rules in place that protect a pilots rest and duty periods? These are just a few safety items that seperate us from the "brands".

Can you get that branded plane when you need it? Can you upsize and downsize? Can you go where you want when you want? Are you sure those charter pilots are both properly typed in the aircraft? Are they flying a broken plane that should be grounded and are doing so to jeopardize your safety to collect your money. At NJA we value your safety, ground the plane, and historically, within 60 minutes, you're on your way again on a new tail. Can "branded" flying do this?

Yes XOJet is cheaper, but as stated, they can tell you if they are or are not going to take a flight. They also tell you what airport is better to go to that is more convenient to the company. Are they cheaper because they are taking high time worn out NJA sold aircraft (their Hawker 800s and some Xs), strapping new engines on them and pushing them hard...you bet.

Charter companies at time can be compared to the old ValuJet airlines. They take old planes, strap on new engines, charge under cutting prices, place some duck tape here and there to keep moving, push their pilots beyond exhaustion (or they could be fired for not taking a flight), and from the outside all looks until something happens. And the news is full of "something happening".

You can compare, air taxi, charter, and private accident rates and then compare them to fractional flying. There is a difference.

Safe flying.

 

[johnsonrod]

Are Marquis Card rates even competitive anymore? Seems like XOJet rates you see in the WSJ for NYC-LA on the X are pretty low in comparison...

 

[gret]

Respectively:

There is a huge difference internally from XOJet, other "branded" providers, and NJA. There are many alternatives out there some charter companies charge the same price for a GV that NJA charges for a Sovereign. Price in aviation should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not saying that XOJet or other "branded" flyers are not safe, but are they converting their pilot training to part 121 (airline standards), do they have an Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) that allows pilots and workers to write up safety concern that is reviewed by the FAA and company so changes and training can take place, do "branded" flyers have FAA award winning maintenance programs, do charter companies and other fractionals have a half dozen FAA inspectors permanently on site to review every move we make (just like the airlines...you would be lucky if an FAA inspector showed up once in a while to a charter company to review what they really do), and do they have work rules in place that protect a pilots rest and duty periods? These are just a few safety items that seperate us from the "brands".

Can you get that branded plane when you need it? Can you upsize and downsize? Can you go where you want when you want? Are you sure those charter pilots are both properly typed in the aircraft? Are they flying a broken plane that should be grounded and are doing so to jeopardize your safety to collect your money. At NJA we value your safety, ground the plane, and historically, within 60 minutes, you're on your way again on a new tail. Can "branded" flying do this?

Yes XOJet is cheaper, but as stated, they can tell you if they are or are not going to take a flight. They also tell you what airport is better to go to that is more convenient to the company. Are they cheaper because they are taking high time worn out NJA sold aircraft (their Hawker 800s and some Xs), strapping new engines on them and pushing them hard...you bet.

Charter companies at time can be compared to the old ValuJet airlines. They take old planes, strap on new engines, charge under cutting prices, place some duck tape here and there to keep moving, push their pilots beyond exhaustion (or they could be fired for not taking a flight), and from the outside all looks until something happens. And the news is full of "something happening".

You can compare, air taxi, charter, and private accident rates and then compare them to fractional flying. There is a difference.

Safe flying.

I know everyone in the industy would like to believe all of this, but you are generalizing too much and incorrect with your assumptions. Regarding the accident statistics, they don't hold water for the aircraft we are talking about and AIN just had a piece on this.

A high percentage of the aircraft in charter fleets today are owned by mgmt clients who include many large public and private companies and high net worth individuals. Exceptions do occur, but not to the extent that one is led to believe. Hard to make the argument about equipment when the largest frax provider is flying a lot of aircraft over 10 years old and hours coming out the wazzoo...

Regardless of who is right or wrong, the customer base eye's glaze over when you start trying to explain Part 121 training and they focus on what they understand and that is price, appearance of the a/c, and whether the crewmembers exercise personal hygiene.

NJOwner has been around the block many times and knows what he is talking about.

 

[X-rated]

Respectively:

There is a huge difference internally from XOJet, other "branded" providers, and NJA. There are many alternatives out there some charter companies charge the same price for a GV that NJA charges for a Sovereign. Price in aviation should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not saying that XOJet or other "branded" flyers are not safe, but are they converting their pilot training to part 121 (airline standards), Well, no. XOJET converted to 121 standards years ago. do they have an Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) that allows pilots and workers to write up safety concern that is reviewed by the FAA and company so changes and training can take place, ASAP yes, Check. do "branded" flyers have FAA award winning maintenance programs, FAA Award Wining best practices awards, Yes. do charter companies and other fractionals have a half dozen FAA inspectors permanently on site to review every move we make (just like the airlines...you would be lucky if an FAA inspector showed up once in a while to a charter company to review what they really do), 6 is a large number. There must be a past reason for that degree of FAA scrutinization. and do they have work rules in place that protect a pilots rest and duty periods? Yes These are just a few safety items that seperate us from the "brands". How so?

Can you get that branded plane when you need it? Yes, there are guaranteed availability programs offered at a higher cost, but still considerably cheaper than ahem "other" providers. Can you upsize and downsize? Can you go where you want when you want? Yes, of course within safety limitations. Are you sure those charter pilots are both properly typed in the aircraft? Yes. Are they flying a broken plane that should be grounded and are doing so to jeopardize your safety to collect your money. NO Never! At NJA we value your safety, ground the plane, and historically, within 60 minutes, you're on your way again on a new tail. Can "branded" flying do this? Netjet's does not guarantee recovery flights in 60 min. Once your company is right sized, recovery times will go up.

Yes XOJet is cheaper, but as stated, they can tell you if they are or are not going to take a flight. Not if you choose a guaranteed program which is still much cheaper, and if it is a low volume day, you still qualify for the cheapest flight on that day. They also tell you what airport is better to go to that is more convenient to the company. Information is power. You can choose the cheaper option, or any airport you like. Are they cheaper because they are taking high time worn out NJA sold aircraft (their Hawker 800s and some Xs), strapping new engines on them and pushing them hard...you bet. I always thought that was a poor decision at least from a marketing perspective. However, XOJET's fleet in total is still much, much younger than NJA's.

Charter companies at time can be compared to the old ValuJet airlines. They take old planes, strap on new engines, charge under cutting prices, place some duck tape here and there to keep moving, push their pilots beyond exhaustion (or they could be fired for not taking a flight), and from the outside all looks until something happens. And the news is full of "something happening".

You can compare, air taxi, charter, and private accident rates and then compare them to fractional flying. There is a difference.

Safe flying.

You are fairly ignorant as to what is happening at other companies, and clearly have bought into the notion that more expensive is better. That's simply not the case. Being wasteful is not smarter. Also, every company markets their safety programs and their service. Think for critically for yourself, and decide where you are really doing something better than your competitors. I've flown enough NJA and Flops sell offs to know for certain your owners feel XOJET compares quite favorably. Get over it. We're all professionals and do the same job.

By the way. I haven't worked for XO for quite a while.