Netjets Announces Aircraft Order

[brokeflyer]

books might not have been cooked a tad, however....

sokol would never do that....he's a man of integrity and deserves our respect.

 

[ozpilot]

sokol would never do that....he's a man of integrity and deserves our respect.

:laugh:

 

[rajflyboy]

Don't you mean revenues?

Doubtful that there are any any profits in the mgmt and hourly fees.

You are right.

Revenue which will hopefully end up as a profit

 

[NJAowner]

I've seen the Netjets version of the 300. Very impressive airplane. If we can sell them at a price point similar to Options, I do believe they will sell .. like hot cakes.

But that is the issue for NJA. The NJA Phenom costs 20+% more than a new FO Phenom, plus over $1000+ extra per hour more than FO in monthly and hourly fees. Plus FO has outfitted the cabin with 7 seats vs. NJA 6 seats.

At the Phenom's price point, these are huge differences.

 

[ghostrider64]

NJAOwner are you familiar with the recent GIV crash in France? I'm certain a charter by that company would be cheaper that both XO or NJA. Especially considering they had a CAPT on the plane that worked there several months for FREE.....

Sometimes paying more makes sense, especially when you know the crew flying, has no pressure to takeoff, if there is the least bit of concern over the flight being conducted safely, to include a no questions asked fatigued policy. That policy doesn't exist anywhere else in the industry, despite some operators telling you their crews won't fly tired...

But hey, money is money....

 

[gret]

NJAOwner are you familiar with the recent GIV crash in France? I'm certain a charter by that company would be cheaper that both XO or NJA. Especially considering they had a CAPT on the plane that worked there several months for FREE.....

Sometimes paying more makes sense, especially when you know the crew flying, has no pressure to takeoff, if there is the least bit of concern over the flight being conducted safely, to include a no questions asked fatigued policy. That policy doesn't exist anywhere else in the industry, despite some operators telling you their crews won't fly tired...

But hey, money is money....

Was Universal Jet Aviation an approved charter vendor for NJ or EJM?

NetJets doesn't have the market on safety cornered and you may be whistling past the graveyard with your comments.

You are also out of line with three people dead and attempting to capitalize on this sad fact. A little class at a time like this may be in order.

 

[NJAowner]

Ghost -- if you have read any of my posts I believe that to some extent -- you get what you pay of run aviation -- mainly in that the cheapest usually leaves something on the table somewhere. By the same token, there is no guarantee that the most expensive is the best either. In the totality of private aviation, XO, FO, Flex are in the high price end of the spectrum -- just not as expensive as NJA.

NJA does not have the market cornered on safety. NJA does apply a "cost to benefit ratio" analysis of when to do certain maintenance and repairs on its aircraft - it is not always safety first no matter what the cost. If that was the case NJA would immediately ground every fleet when a directive was issued and immediately make that repair before flying another owner, regardless of cost.

And as I brought up a month ago and got blasted, in I have found that FO and XO pilots are by a far margin more in compliance with the Part 135 pilot oxygen requirements than NJ pilots. I know the rule may not make sense, I now it is extremely uncomfortable, etc., but it is still the law and pilots still make the individual decision not to comply with it, and that widespread non-compliance is sanctioned by management. So please do not think NJA has the market cornered on safety.

After well more than 10 years drinking at the "kool aid" trough, my eyes are now more open.

 

[CA1900]

... it is still the law and pilots still make the individual decision not to comply with it, and that widespread non-compliance is sanctioned by management.

While I can't speak to any company-wide compliance issue as I only know what I see in my own cockpit, I can state that the last part is simply incorrect. Quite the opposite, in fact, and the issue has been discussed at virtually every training event I've attended. There's no "wink wink" or anything like that -- they're reiterating that it's the rule. Not sure where you got the idea that management sanctions noncompliance, as that's just not the case.

 

[ghostrider64]

NJAOwner...

I've no information on what you see in the cockpit with regards to Oxygen use. However you seem to understand regulations and are free to,ask the crew to comply at any time.

However I know for a fact that running crews for weeks on end leaves a lot on the safety table. XOJet allows crew to work 14 straight days, sound safe to you? Sleep deprivation is a major contributor to many accidents, not too mention inner crew dynamics, personalities, that fray after many days together.

As for some that seem to think talking about pilots ending up dead is poor form, I say it's a fact of life in aviation. Our job is to try our best to mitigate it. I've know over 30 people who've died in aircraft accidents. If you can't accept talking openly about it you should move on, because tomorrow someone else will make the same mistakes they did if you don't talk about it....

 

[jonjuan]

I've been saying for years, NJAowner ain't no owner. Read between the lines, guys.....He used to work for NJA and now one of the others.....

 

[bluepost]

My favorite sedan driver in my area doesn't always use his turn signal on every turn (but neither does any other sedan driver out there), but he is by FAR the safest sedan driver I ride with anywhere in the country. He is well rested, his car is well maintained, he drives the speed limit, and is aware of his surroundings at all times. I know, that without any other cars around, a turn signal doesn't make a damn bit of difference, but is still required by law.

I had a 30 min conversation with a manager at a certain FSI center where he disclosed how XO Jet wouldn't train with them because FSI would not "just check without training". XOJET wanted their guys to come in and take the ride in one session and be on their way, FSI refused. This was about 2 years ago so maybe things have changed.

I have flown for over a half dozen corporate operators, a couple very large, and very recognized names, and hands down, NJA is the safest operation I have worked at. Those other high end operators were safe, but NJA is still safer in my experience. I'm sure XOJET and Flex etc have very safe operations too, I can only speak from my own experience however. That being said, I would not trust my family on ANY charter operation, and I have flown for Jet Aviation and TAG. An airplane with a charter certificate represents an owner concerned about cost, a full time pilot for that owner is also concerned about cost. I'll choose the pilot not concerned about cost or his job any day.

I may be off base, but in my mind things like not wearing a seat belt, carrying oil or Prist in the nose compartment, and yes, even the O2 mask (all things I saw at the large charter/corporate operators) are things that are only a factor AFTER something goes terribly wrong (even then is 2 quarts of extra oil in the nose REALLY going to make a difference in an airplane that holds 2000 gallons of fuel?). But flying tired, or hungry, or with a warning message dimmed down, putting one more leg on that cut tire, by then something already has eaten severely into some of those links in the safety chain.

 

[gunfyter]

I am superstitious ....

So I believe...

Its bad juju to criticize dead pilots and talk about other people's safety....

 

[gret]

I am superstitious ....

So I believe...

Its bad juju to criticize dead pilots and talk about other people's safety....

You're not superstitious...you're a wise man with character.

 

[gret]

I've been saying for years, NJAowner ain't no owner. Read between the lines, guys.....He used to work for NJA and now one of the others.....

Don't think so. He articulates well and knows his way around a set of financial statements.

Has appeared very pro NJ, until they forgot the meaning of customer service and started nickel and diming their lifeblood...the customer.

 

[gunfyter]

Gotta agree with Gret here, JJ

 

[brokeflyer]

I've seen the Netjets version of the 300. Very impressive airplane. If we can sell them at a price point similar to Options, I do believe they will sell .. like hot cakes.

But that is the issue for NJA. The NJA Phenom costs 20+% more than a new FO Phenom, plus over $1000+ extra per hour more than FO in monthly and hourly fees. Plus FO has outfitted the cabin with 7 seats vs. NJA 6 seats.

At the Phenom's price point, these are huge differences.

as safe as the pilots are at NJ, they should be 50% more expensive. If they can do all that for only 20% more is whats impressive.

safety is expensive, i dont wanna go cheap.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Don't think so. He articulates well and knows his way around a set of financial statements.

Has appeared very pro NJ, until they forgot the meaning of customer service and started nickel and diming their lifeblood...the customer.

I would agree that cuts under Sokol were draconian and the end result is as you describe. However things seem to be changing for the better as the company has regained its financial footing. I see bright days ahead for NJA. We can all learn from our mistakes.

 

[t-bone]

I had a 30 min conversation with a manager at a certain FSI center where he disclosed how XO Jet wouldn't train with them because FSI would not "just check without training". XOJET wanted their guys to come in and take the ride in one session and be on their way, FSI refused. This was about 2 years ago so maybe things have changed.

It's called an Instrument Proficiency Check(135.297), and there is no requirement that you go to training for a full week to be able to demonstrate your ability to fly these maneuvers. Our long recurrent, 135.293, is a full week course. Perhaps there was more in play when FSI (owned by Uncle Warren) opted not to give a competitor to NJA a break when it comes to training costs. Think about it...

 

[johnsonrod]

as safe as the pilots are at NJ, they should be 50% more expensive. If they can do all that for only 20% more is whats impressive.

safety is expensive, i dont wanna go cheap.

XOJet seems cheaper than Netjets fractional options in many cases (i.e., one-way TEB-VNY for 20K). Cettainly cheaper than Marquis Card for the same flight on the X. Are you suggesting XOJet pilots are less safe?

 

[gunfyter]

I think nearly all the Frax pilots are probably overqualified if anything ... because of the economy and job market....

There is no need to be measuring our penises on this board....