Netjets Announces Aircraft Order

[X-rated]

Which is why we would be best served finding a way to integrate them, or a sizeable portion that is not just managed aircraft, but maybe the new core fleet flown as charter, block charter, and sell-offs by pilots on the NJA seniority list under the same contract as the rest of us. This changes the scope issues and allows the company to grow in a way that the market is currently allowing. It would be best if these airplanes were from the same type of airframes that are coming to the fractional side, but I'm not so sure Berkshire would really want to fund a brand new core fleet, but since it will take quite a while to phase out the current fleets, it would probably be quite easy to move over unencumbered airframes and fly them as the new core/ charter fleet with an agreement that the NJA seniority list flies them. Management won't like having to pay our rates and benefits, but I wonder if it could work since it could benefit the pilots with keeping the jobs while allowing the company to match the current market. Any thoughts about whether or not this could work? I'm just a line pilot who spends too much time on the message boards and I don't really know what would and wouldn't work businesswise.

The problem is most of EJM's aircraft are owned by individuals and managed by EJM. Therefore, the owners set the salary and benefits for their individual crews. Also, the seniority system would be problematic since no owner will want to constantly see a bunch of new faces on his aircraft. Since you mentioned the company owning it's own airplanes as a core fleet and selling charter on them, it would probably make more sense for NJA to do it themselves. Why do you need EJM? Oh, keep in mind true charter needs to be competitive with market rates. You may get by with a slight premium, but having an extraordinarily high cost structure is not generally a recipe for success.

 

[Downwind]

Which is why we would be best served finding a way to integrate them, or a sizeable portion that is not just managed aircraft, but maybe the new core fleet flown as charter, block charter, and sell-offs by pilots on the NJA seniority list under the same contract as the rest of us. This changes the scope issues and allows the company to grow in a way that the market is currently allowing. It would be best if these airplanes were from the same type of airframes that are coming to the fractional side, but I'm not so sure Berkshire would really want to fund a brand new core fleet, but since it will take quite a while to phase out the current fleets, it would probably be quite easy to move over unencumbered airframes and fly them as the new core/ charter fleet with an agreement that the NJA seniority list flies them. Management won't like having to pay our rates and benefits, but I wonder if it could work since it could benefit the pilots with keeping the jobs while allowing the company to match the current market. Any thoughts about whether or not this could work? I'm just a line pilot who spends too much time on the message boards and I don't really know what would and wouldn't work businesswise.

I asked this question about my sixth month on property. Nobody seemed too interested in those EJM lepers. Everyone was however way too focused on the G's. If it were to happen however, would NJASAP allow EJM DOH from those who went EJM to NJA? It's been denied previously but if everyone is now one big happy family. If so, would that unfurlough some of the furloughed? Would that then push a few danglers riding to bottom rung off into the street? Interesting times...

 

[gret]

The problem is most of EJM's aircraft are owned by individuals and managed by EJM. Therefore, the owners set the salary and benefits for their individual crews. Also, the seniority system would be problematic since no owner will want to constantly see a bunch of new faces on his aircraft. Since you mentioned the company owning it's own airplanes as a core fleet and selling charter on them, it would probably make more sense for NJA to do it themselves. Why do you need EJM? Oh, keep in mind true charter needs to be competitive with market rates. You may get by with a slight premium, but having an extraordinarily high cost structure is not generally a recipe for success.

Correct..this has been discussed several times.

The owners would pull their plane from EJM in a heart beat if they didn't have the ability to choose crewmembers. Furthermore, every time this comes up the question remains what are you going to do with the pilots that are already flying the a/c? The pilots, in most cases, won't want to join a union as they would have to take a pay cut, start paying dues, and lose their independence.

 

[54fighting]

Exactly what Gret said. I think some of you really need to do some research as to how an account at EJM functions as well as the pay and benefits of those EJM Lepers.

 

[acaTerry]

Just finished all 5 pages of this. OK so we got an aircraft order. Others are going out of business. Some of our NJA guys are gloating and it's embarrassing. Please don't think we're all a bunch of pompous a$$ses. On the flip side, don't blame us for the inability for other companies to continue. Someone gotta win. But in any case, EJM is in reality, an "outside" vendor, and thus must be contained. Nothing personal, just keeping the CBA in place.

 

[jtf]

I'm not disputing the way it works with managed aircraft at EJM. We will never bring those crews into the union. What I am saying is that the company could take something like 50 of the currently unencumbered QS tails that are basically used for a core fleet and shift the airplanes to EJM while still owning them. These airplanes are then used for charter and "sell offs". These airplanes are flown by NJASAP pilots and kept up to NJA standards and interior designs. The number of sell offs to this NJASAP flown and EJM owned fleet is unlimited while continuing to keep scope on any other non NJASAP flown airplanes as tight as possible for sell offs. The crews would be interchangeable between NJA and these specific EJM airframes so the marketing could claim "NJA" pilots for the sell offs and now for charter also. Keep the new core fleet on the road, just like the current NJA fleet and let EJM charter them around without having to price in as much price on dead legs as traditional charter that has the airplanes based at one airport. I know there are other companies that already do this, but charter would just be "gravy" for these airplanes since they would be doing the majority of their flying as sell offs for NJA. If the outside chartering is successful, then more airplanes could be added to this side of the house as long as they are operated by NJASAP pilots. Does anyone else think this could work?

 

[Club ORD FO]

Just finished all 5 pages of this. OK so we got an aircraft order. Others are going out of business. Some of our NJA guys are gloating and it's embarrassing. Please don't think we're all a bunch of pompous a$$ses. On the flip side, don't blame us for the inability for other companies to continue. Someone gotta win. But in any case, EJM is in reality, an "outside" vendor, and thus must be contained. Nothing personal, just keeping the CBA in place.

Your decreasing market share is not winning. Aircraft bought with Uncle warren's money is not winning.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Your decreasing market share is not winning. Aircraft bought with Uncle warren's money is not winning.

Has NJA's fractional market share decreased since the boom period of the mid 00's? I was under the impression that it was still north of 70%.

For a good majority of NJA pilots, having the backing of BRK is winning in the sense that the company remains a going concern and is able to provide employment opportunities. It wouldn't necessarily be a good thing to flood the sketchy job market with 3000+ pilots.

 

[X-rated]

I'm not disputing the way it works with managed aircraft at EJM. We will never bring those crews into the union. What I am saying is that the company could take something like 50 of the currently unencumbered QS tails that are basically used for a core fleet and shift the airplanes to EJM while still owning them. These airplanes are then used for charter and "sell offs". These airplanes are flown by NJASAP pilots and kept up to NJA standards and interior designs. The number of sell offs to this NJASAP flown and EJM owned fleet is unlimited while continuing to keep scope on any other non NJASAP flown airplanes as tight as possible for sell offs. The crews would be interchangeable between NJA and these specific EJM airframes so the marketing could claim "NJA" pilots for the sell offs and now for charter also. Keep the new core fleet on the road, just like the current NJA fleet and let EJM charter them around without having to price in as much price on dead legs as traditional charter that has the airplanes based at one airport. I know there are other companies that already do this, but charter would just be "gravy" for these airplanes since they would be doing the majority of their flying as sell offs for NJA. If the outside chartering is successful, then more airplanes could be added to this side of the house as long as they are operated by NJASAP pilots. Does anyone else think this could work?

The charter isn't gravy. It's what makes those airplanes make sense. The issue centers on having enough aircraft to meet the guaranteed availability requirements of the fractional business on peak days, but not having 50 or 100 airplanes sit idle the rest of the year. Airplanes are expensive to acquire and maintain. You need crews to staff those airplanes, and the maintenance needs to be done whether you fly them or not. If you don't pick up substantial amount of non guaranteed charter on the slower days, you can't justify keeping the planes. If you could, NJA would just keep them in the fractional business. There would be nothing to prevent NJA from putting a group of aircraft on Charter Management with EJM and crewing them with their own pilots. The key is whether they can they keep the airplanes flying during the slow periods so they make economic sense. It's probably a reasonable idea though.

 

[acaTerry]

Your decreasing market share is not winning. Aircraft bought with Uncle warren's money is not winning.

The decreasing market share, I can't argue, but we are not going to go out of business in any time anyone can see (yes I know---it's aviation, watch what I say). However, how is our decreasing market share relevant in concerns to others just going out of business? Here....let's say Company A has 40% of a market share, and there are 5 others at 12%. Even if Company A loses a little ground, there are still "winning". About Uncle Warren....so what if it's his money? Where else is the money coming from? He OWNS us, it's his company so naturally it's his money. We can't buy airplanes without his permission anyways.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Has NJA's fractional market share decreased since the boom period of the mid 00's? I was under the impression that it was still north of 70%.

For a good majority of NJA pilots, having the backing of BRK is winning in the sense that the company remains a going concern and is able to provide employment opportunities. It wouldn't necessarily be a good thing to flood the sketchy job market with 3000+ pilots.

We get an industry update email every month or so that includes the number of shares each of the big 4 (now three) has. Everyone is losing shares year over year, but Netjests is losing a higher percentage than Flexjet. So I say we are winning! (even tho we are all losing) I dont recall the exact market share you guys have now, I've deleted the last email we got. Obviously it's pretty damn high compared to us, no argument there, but yes it has decreased since the boom period.

And uncle warren may have bought the planes for you, but guess who he is going to give all that delicious money to? Our parent company. So once again I say we win.

No disrespect intended. Just a little friendly rivalry.

 

[DC-4]

I do not post much here but for all that are bashing NJA let me tell you internally at NJASAP things are not good and I think its about time someone says it what the Union officals are telling the furloughed. Just incase the active guys have not heard this here you go. As with all other aircraft orders NJA has had NJASAP is doom and gloom. Two NJASAP officals on the furloughed page have said there will be no recalls maybe forever and that a 500 pilot force at NJASAP is a real possiblility and a next round of furloughs are right around the corner. This was as of yesterday. Oh and they also said all furloughs need to move on and deal with our problems, classy classy stuff.

Jeff

 

[gret]

I'm not disputing the way it works with managed aircraft at EJM. We will never bring those crews into the union. What I am saying is that the company could take something like 50 of the currently unencumbered QS tails that are basically used for a core fleet and shift the airplanes to EJM while still owning them. These airplanes are then used for charter and "sell offs". These airplanes are flown by NJASAP pilots and kept up to NJA standards and interior designs. The number of sell offs to this NJASAP flown and EJM owned fleet is unlimited while continuing to keep scope on any other non NJASAP flown airplanes as tight as possible for sell offs. The crews would be interchangeable between NJA and these specific EJM airframes so the marketing could claim "NJA" pilots for the sell offs and now for charter also. Keep the new core fleet on the road, just like the current NJA fleet and let EJM charter them around without having to price in as much price on dead legs as traditional charter that has the airplanes based at one airport. I know there are other companies that already do this, but charter would just be "gravy" for these airplanes since they would be doing the majority of their flying as sell offs for NJA. If the outside chartering is successful, then more airplanes could be added to this side of the house as long as they are operated by NJASAP pilots. Does anyone else think this could work?

OK...good point form a business standpoint...the only hang up is that some of the managed aircraft have agreements that "guarantee" a certain # of charters hours and this could scare off existing and prospective clients. EJM sells their services to prospects that they will be able to fly charter for NJ.

Bummer.........

 

[Downwind]

I do not post much here but for all that are bashing NJA let me tell you internally at NJASAP things are not good and I think its about time someone says it what the Union officals are telling the furloughed. Just incase the active guys have not heard this here you go. As with all other aircraft orders NJA has had NJASAP is doom and gloom. Two NJASAP officals on the furloughed page have said there will be no recalls maybe forever and that a 500 pilot force at NJASAP is a real possiblility and a next round of furloughs are right around the corner. This was as of yesterday. Oh and they also said all furloughs need to move on and deal with our problems, classy classy stuff.

Jeff

Jeff,

This is not quite accurate. What was said is that even if NJA takes all of the firm orders (which historically it hasn't done) they are not enough to replace the current airframes. It is true that NJA is looking to continue to shrink and that another furlough is a real possibility. However, the 500 pilot number was a hypothetical to make a point, nothing more.

Also accurate is that the 495 (or 482, whatever it currently is) need to move on and make other plans. It was a good gig, and one that I miss, but brother it's time to move forward and quite looking at what was. It's a higher probability that others will join us long before NJA needs us again.

Some of yall have been beating R and B up pretty hard. I agree that J comments were out of line but what really do you want NJASAP to do? Their main job is to defend the contract and protect the pilots under that contract. That ain't us! We got seven months of dues refunds and access to jobs boards. Admittedly they didn't do any good but that's more the result of the job market in 2010 than anything NJASAP did. And a token "spay and neuter your pets" Bob Barker message at the end of every NJASAP communication ( which I don't get by choice) isn't sincere and won't do any good. The union and our former fellow pilots can't do anything. Until we get this jackass out of office, quite demanding free everything, and stop attacking success there isn't going to be demand for trash men, much less pilots.

Move on. Vote. Read the Federalist papers. But get out of that damn message board. It isn't health!

 

[X-rated]

NJASAP Air Charters

Here's an idea...

NJA pilots as a group have a substantial amount of investable income. There is nothing to prevent them as a group from buying used aircraft and putting them on the EJM certificate. I’m sure NJA would be willing to sell NJASP any number of retiring aircraft at very attractive prices, and more than likely give them first shot at selloffs. If you think there is money to be made and it’s a reasonable investment, it would certainly get some furloughed pilots back in the cockpit. On the other hand, if you don’t think it would be a good investment, why would you want your company to invest?

 

[X-rated]

NJASAP Air Charters

duplicate post...

 

[DC-4]

Listen, I have moved on I have made the difficult choices with may family and we are all better for it. My problem is that what is being told to us is not what is being told the the active line pilots. The other problem I have with the current union is that except BW nobody has spent any time for the furloughed. I agree what are they going to do, however then why is it that BW spends so much time trying to help us. In 2.5 years Luthi has yet to post one time on the furloughed side. I agree with you that I think NJA has sailed with respect to me. However I think the active guys should be getting this same information we are to prepare for there ship to sail too. 500 pilots was stated hypothetical however stated none the less and if what was it 300- 400 can go right now, or 200-300 I forget. But the point is all is not well and the ship is sinking, if I were an active guy I sure would be happy someone would spend the time to post what union officials were saying somewere else but not to us so I could make some decisions. I am not trying to start an argument at all just pointing out what is being said. But to your point I have moved on and doubt I will ever be back and I am 19 from recall right now. Sad but true, your right on that.

 

[Xcorporate]

DC-4 is making some great points. We have one guy from NJASAP who is giving us information with respect and dignity. Sometimes it's not what we want to hear but the message always comes with a professional air. Unfortunately we have a union volunteer that is pompous and belittling in every post. Whenever a question is raised that can't be justified, the party line is abrupt, and very aggressive.

I too have moved on, but something is at play with these guys and it involves villainizing the the furloughed group. The president of our union won't even address us other than to say until a recall is imminent he has nothing to say to us. Can't help but think we are being fleeced.

I do hope NJA regains, retains, or captures market share and everybody on property gets to keep what they have. Hopefully it's not at the expense of the 500 guys that have been shut out.....

 

[BentOver]

Something is definitely up... All of a sudden we get them to grace us with their presence...Strange timing isn't it? Right after a huge order (no matter what it is positive for NJA), and during the election drumming they got.

JH lost his re-election, and lost badly. Along with a couple other Luthi cronies.. I think JH is pissed and blowing off some steam and we get to hear the BS and really ridiculuous thoughts about why we didn't check a box.

As for RF, he has always come across as pompous...

 

[Grizz]

Hopefully when the new E Board takes over, RF will be history as a spokesperson for anything.