National Seniority Protocol

[DoinTime]

I disagree.

That is ridiculous.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's a matter of career expectations, Joey. No matter how long you work at ASA, you'll never fly a 767 and make $200k per year. The NSL shouldn't provide you with an opportunity to bump the 13 year senior DAL FO from bidding to that 767 slot, because he did have expectations for that slot and income. I'm sorry Joey, but your regional years simply aren't worth as much in terms of career earnings. It's just a simple fact that a 20 year ASA career is worth far less than a 20 year Delta career. You want a windfall (again), and that's just unacceptable.

1. Career expectations are in the eye of the beholder....Career expectations makes for messy integrations....NWA/Republic, AA/TWA, AAA/AWA, and probably DAL/NWA.....Too subjective.....

When I hired on at ASA my career expectations at ASA were never to fly a jet....looks like that is going to change....

2. There are ASA pilots making $130K a year....many Delta pilots don't make that....We can go down a W2 merger policy if you want.....Shall we do that?

3. You said "The NSL shouldn't provide you with an opportunity to bump the 13 year senior DAL FO from bidding to that 767 slot, because he did have expectations for that slot and income."

The NSL shouldn't provide a 7 year DAL FO the opportunity to bump a 9 year ASA Captain....Did the 7 year DAL FO have the expectation to be an ASA captain? After all we are talking expectations....correct? Did any mainline pilot ever expect to bump a regional pilot back and become an RJ captain again? Expectations?


4. You said "I'm sorry Joey, but your regional years simply aren't worth as much in terms of career earnings."

Career earnings now.....OK should a UAL pilot be on the same footing as a FDX pilot....After all a FDX pilot has higher career earnings potential....How about a UAL pilot vs. a DAL pilot....Who has the higher career earnings? Slippery slope and subject to change....

Are ASA/CMR/PDT years worth more than Gulfstream years? Are DAL years worth more than Airtran years? Hmmm.....

5. You said "It's just a simple fact that a 20 year ASA career is worth far less than a 20 year Delta career"

The way things are currently going.....A 20 year ASA career may very well be worth more than a United 20 year career.....An ASA 20 year career is currently worth more than a 20 year USAirways career.....Using your logic, a 20 year ASA pilot can go ahead of a 20 year USAirways pilot.....I don't think that is right....but that is your logic...

6. You said "You want a windfall (again), and that's just unacceptable."

You are the one advocating a windfall for mainline pilots......Where does a 20 year USAirways FO making less than a 20 year ASA Capt. go in your pecking order?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Double post.

 

[PCL_128]

That is ridiculous.

Why? The 18-year NWA pilot has been making more money than a PCL Captain for most of his career. Now he's expected to get bumped under the PCL pilot if his company goes under? That defeats the purpose of an NSL. Someone that has made the decision to be a Pinnacle lifer does so with the knowledge that they will never make more than about $105k per year (under the current agreement), even as a checkairman. But you would expect a 20-year UAL Captain to have to bid under a 21-year PCL Captain if UAL goes tits up? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why? The 18-year NWA pilot has been making more money than a PCL Captain for most of his career. Now he's expected to get bumped under the PCL pilot if his company goes under? That defeats the purpose of an NSL. Someone that has made the decision to be a Pinnacle lifer does so with the knowledge that they will never make more than about $105k per year (under the current agreement), even as a checkairman. But you would expect a 20-year UAL Captain to have to bid under a 21-year PCL Captain if UAL goes tits up? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me.

So your advocating a W2 type merger? We can go that way if you want......

 

[PCL_128]

So your advocating a W2 type merger? We can go that way if you want......

Not really. There are problems with that also. As I said, I would support a ratio that slightly reduces credit for regional years. If the 0.75 for 1 method was used, for example, then that would still leave you with 10 years of portable seniority. Not bad, and a hell of a lot better than nothing. I know it bruises your ego, Joey, but you know it would be in your best interest to have such a system in place.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not really. There are problems with that also. As I said, I would support a ratio that slightly reduces credit for regional years. If the 0.75 for 1 method was used, for example, then that would still leave you with 10 years of portable seniority. Not bad, and a hell of a lot better than nothing. I know it bruises your ego, Joey, but you know it would be in your best interest to have such a system in place.

Sorry....I say no system then....Let's just go our separate ways.......Works for me.....

Why .75 for 1? How about the 20 year USairways FO? Is he the same as a FDX pilot? How about an Air Tran vs. Delta pilot? Who defines "career expectations"? 10 years doesn't get me very far with the USAirways/AWA pilots......nor the United pilots....I say let them apply at the bottom if we can't go 1 for 1......The ALPA Apartheid needs to stop.....

 

[PCL_128]

Sorry....I say no system then....Let's just go our separate ways.......Works for me.....

I would wager that a majority of the pilots at your carrier would disagree. But of course, it's always just about Joey.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I would wager that a majority of the pilots at your carrier would disagree. But of course, it's always just about Joey.

20-30% of all regionals are "lifers".....They control the union at the local level......50% don't care and don't participate at all....they just want PIC time so they can become a real pilot.....That leaves about 20-30% of regional pilots that think like you....

You will need to get the "lifers" on board at the regional level if you want this plan to go forward.....The choice is there.....The "lifers" are ready to go either way.....either together or separate.....

 

[PCL_128]

20-30% of all regionals are "lifers".....They control the union at the local level.

That may be true at some carriers, but not at all. I can only think of two lifers that sat on the MEC at Pinnacle during my tenure. Two out of six voting members doesn't a majority make.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That may be true at some carriers, but not at all. I can only think of two lifers that sat on the MEC at Pinnacle during my tenure. Two out of six voting members doesn't a majority make.

I never said the "lifers" were a majority....but they are a majority of those who get involved at the regional level.....The real majority just don't get involved one way or the other....They just want to stay below the radar screen and get 1000 hours of PIC time and leave.....They don't control anything....

Again....you have to get the "lifers" on board if you are going to get the support of a regional MEC.....

 

[DoinTime]

Someone that has made the decision to be a Pinnacle lifer does so with the knowledge that they will never make more than about $105k per year (under the current agreement), even as a checkairman.

The decision to be a lifer is not always one that can be made and being a lifer does NOT make you a "loser." Medical condition, FAA trouble, or getting into the career later in life (or a protracted industry slowdown) can all lead to an involuntary lifer status.

Good lifestyles and income can be had in the senior ranks at regionals. For someone who isn't young, mobile, and able to take significant risk the jump to major is a hazardous one (as the current round of furloughs shows). Compared to those who left regionals and went to some of the majors just prior to 9/11 the lifers have made way more money, have had a significantly better lifestyles and unmatched job security.

 

[Poahi]

GeekMaster,

Why do you think UAL is doing this? Is it a hail Mary pass? Is there a plan here? What are we missing?

 

[GeekMaster]

GeekMaster,

Why do you think UAL is doing this? Is it a hail Mary pass? Is there a plan here? What are we missing?

I said in an earlier post, the UAL MEC is doing this as a Last Will and Testament for their pilot group. The problem is they're trying to give away something that doesn't belong to them.

As for Joe, Rez and PCL: It's not for us to negotiate the correct version. UAL wrote it and they put the language in there. If it fails and someone else submits a different version, then you might have something.

If you're trying to figure out a fair way, try this one.

Catagory A consists of the majors
Catagory B is the regionals (and others)

A national list in each catagory is kept and time served in each catagory is kept separate. That way if a pilot starts his career at a regional and stays there 6 years, then goes to UAL for 4 years and gets furloughed, he can go back to the regionals and reclaim his 6 years seniority. If UAL goes TU and a super senior 747 capt with 20+ years has 4 years of regional experience under his belt, he can go back with 4 years.

On the other side, if a regional pilot does 8 years and goes to a major, he still starts at the bottom, just like now, on his seniority. He keeps his 8 years as insurance at the regionals.

The problem with a system like this is there is no "net" for the guys who go straight to the majors from the military or elsewhere. They would have no regional seniority. That won't sell. The only solution to that would involve heavy comprimise on both parties and would involve some kind of a "reverse rig". I don't know exactly what would be fair but say a 1:3 rig was in place. Then, a 9 year UAL guy would have 3 years of regional seniority. That would harm "some" of the regional guys and also present the problem of the exregional guys continuing to advance their regional seniority at a 1 to 3 rate.

There IS NO PERFECT SOLUTION!! Straight DOH with any 121 carrier will never fly with our major airline brethren.

 

[PCL_128]

As for Joe, Rez and PCL: It's not for us to negotiate the correct version. UAL wrote it and they put the language in there. If it fails and someone else submits a different version, then you might have something.

That's not how it works. UAL passed the original resolution at their MEC meeting, but their language isn't final at the BOD. It will be changed in committee and then open for change on the floor of the BOD in plenary session also. The final language will probably be changed quite a bit from what you see in the UAL resolution. The regional pilots can certainly "negotiate" for changes to the language before it is final. Hopefully some good regional reps will make it onto the committee that deals with this resolution at the BOD meeting next month.

 

[FightingIrish]

Doesn't it have to pass at the Executive Board level before it goes on the the BOD?

 

[PCL_128]

Doesn't it have to pass at the Executive Board level before it goes on the the BOD?

No, you can source a resolution from the MEC level or the EB or EC level.

 

[GeekMaster]

That's not how it works. UAL passed the original resolution at their MEC meeting, but their language isn't final at the BOD. It will be changed in committee and then open for change on the floor of the BOD in plenary session also. The final language will probably be changed quite a bit from what you see in the UAL resolution. The regional pilots can certainly "negotiate" for changes to the language before it is final. Hopefully some good regional reps will make it onto the committee that deals with this resolution at the BOD meeting next month.

I understand the negotiating process. I know the language can be changed during the process. The problem is that with the current language as written, the regionals would have minimal representation. (2-3 but no more than 5 of the 11 votes) Herein lies the problem. There is simply no way to get fair treatment when you don't have fair representation in an event where the majors' reps are interested in their own self preservation.

Furthermore, NONE OF THIS is probably going to matter anyway. If you think the regional guys would cry and whine over a major getting preferential seniority, just wait. Imagine Delta and Continental pilots trying to stomach several thousand unemployed senior UAL pilots coming in and keeping all of their first officers from acheiving upgrades. Scenario: You are a 9 year Delta F/O. The market is finally on the way back up after the liquidation of UAL and the DAL/NWA merger completion. Delta announces hiring 600 over the next year. 600 10+ year seniority UAL pilots say, "Thank you very much, I'll take those Captain slots".

Now sit back and enjoy the screaming......and not from the regional guys

 

[PCL_128]

I understand the negotiating process. I know the language can be changed during the process. The problem is that with the current language as written, the regionals would have minimal representation. (2-3 but no more than 5 of the 11 votes) Herein lies the problem. There is simply no way to get fair treatment when you don't have fair representation in an event where the majors' reps are interested in their own self preservation.

Again, the language that's in that resolution isn't really relevant. The committee that receives that resolution at the BOD will possibly have more B-carrier reps than legacy reps. Remember, the B-carriers have more members than the A-carriers now that AAA/AWA are gone. The language in the resolution that describes the composition of the seniority committee could be changed by the BOD committee that receives the resolution. In fact, the language could even be changed on the BOD floor. There's no reason to get hung up about the language in the current resolution.

 

[GeekMaster]

Again, the language that's in that resolution isn't really relevant. The committee that receives that resolution at the BOD will possibly have more B-carrier reps than legacy reps. Remember, the B-carriers have more members than the A-carriers now that AAA/AWA are gone. The language in the resolution that describes the composition of the seniority committee could be changed by the BOD committee that receives the resolution. In fact, the language could even be changed on the BOD floor. There's no reason to get hung up about the language in the current resolution.

The language is very clear on that. It says that EACH MEMBER of group A gets a rep plus Prater, that's 6. THEN it says each remaining group gets one rep per group for the remaining 5. It was then pointed out by Dointime that regionals don't represent a majority in all of those groups. So now we're down to 2 or 3 true reps for sure but no more than 5. Add to that a very real possibility that T Zerb could end up being one of those reps. Not very promising for fair representation.

 

[PCL_128]

The language is very clear on that. It says that EACH MEMBER of group A gets a rep plus Prater, that's 6. THEN it says each remaining group gets one rep per group for the remaining 5. It was then pointed out by Dointime that regionals don't represent a majority in all of those groups. So now we're down to 2 or 3 true reps for sure but no more than 5. Add to that a very real possibility that T Zerb could end up being one of those reps. Not very promising for fair representation.

You're still not understanding how the process works. The language in the resolution that describes what you're talking about isn't finalized. That language goes to a "break-out" committee at the BOD that has nothing to do with the seniority committee that's discussed in that resolution. The BOD committee will look at that resolution and make any changes that they consider necessary. The BOD committee that does this will probably be pretty much evenly split between B-carrier and A-carrier pilots, possibly with a slight edge for the B-carrier pilots. They will be able to change the language for the seniority committee to require more reps from the regionals. It could also be changed from the BOD floor. That language that you're hung up on isn't binding on anybody yet, and it has nothing to do with the committee at the BOD that will edit the language.

 

[FightingIrish]

No, you can source a resolution from the MEC level or the EB or EC level.

I understand that, but the resolution here says Executive Board Sept 9 and 10. Does that mean it is going to the EB first?

 

[PCL_128]

I understand that, but the resolution here says Executive Board Sept 9 and 10. Does that mean it is going to the EB first?

Yes, in this case the UAL MEC specifically decided to send it to the EB first. If the EB rejects it, then the UAL MEC would probably still have time to this placed on the BOD agenda, though. I wouldn't be surprised to see the EB pass a modified version of this resolution, which would change some of the language that we're arguing about here.

 

[Spicepilots]

It's a matter of career expectations, Joey. No matter how long you work at ASA, you'll never fly a 767 and make $200k per year. The NSL shouldn't provide you with an opportunity to bump the 13 year senior DAL FO from bidding to that 767 slot, because he did have expectations for that slot and income. I'm sorry Joey, but your regional years simply aren't worth as much in terms of career earnings. It's just a simple fact that a 20 year ASA career is worth far less than a 20 year Delta career. You want a windfall (again), and that's just unacceptable.

I find it interesting that PCL's argument is all about monetary expectations. If that is truely all that the NSL is about, we have a serious problem. If a 20 year UAL veteran is going to come to SKYW, at what level will he be paid? The SKYW 20 year rate? The UAL rate? What if he was on the 737 vs. the 747? If it's going to be what he was GETTING paid, why would SKYW be held accountable for allowing said pilot to continue to live the life to which he has become accustomed at another carrier which they had no control over?? Legally, that's impossible.

If it's not about how much money and more about just having A job, then it shouldn't matter what size airplane you fly. We all fly self-loading cargo, and I daresay we all know that at the end of the day, your job gets easier the further up the chain you go, so I fail to see your reasoning why length of service at a major is more valuable than a regional pilot's. Are we really still in the mindset that bigger iron makes you more of a "REAL" pilot? Yes, I'll concede that flying 300 passengers into Bejing or Mumbai involves a fair amount more risk and responsibility than taking 50 people from DEN to Rapid City, SD. The problem is, a furloughed UAL pilot at SKYW will be doing just that: DEN to RAP (over and over and over...) Why should he get paid more and have instant superseniority because of what he USED to do?

If inroads are really going to be made, we have to stop the wild assumption that the longer you've had your @ss in the seat, the better you are. This, of course, would never happen, because let's say we make pay based on hours flown rather than years of service (just as irrelevant). Thus, when I (no turbine PIC) get hired at DAL along with a guy who has 4000 hours of 121 turbine PIC, he gets paid commensurate with his experience and more than I do. Just like a seasoned cardiologist would get paid more than a kid fresh out of med school. The problem with that is, where is the incentive for DAL to hire the regional captain?? Sure, he's flown more hours without killing anyone and proven he has some level of command ability, but he's a drain on the bottom line. Of course, we all know a merit-based pay system would be completely impossible to impliment and would go over like a lead balloon anyway.

Seniority is everything. It dictates where you can be based, what equipment you can fly, and whether or not you get to see your kids on weekends and holidays. But if the option is to abrogate my seniority in my corner of the industry with the hollow promise that it establishes my place in line to one day maybe get hired at a carrier that might not even exist a few years from now... I'd rather leave the system as it is. This may just be impossible to fix, and UAL's attempts to do so now stink of desperate opportunism as their ship starts to go down in flames.

 

[GeekMaster]

Spicepilot,

The resolution is for establishing seniority, not longevity. No airline would EVER give in to paying for another airline's longevity. No NMB would EVER release a pilot group for self-help with other airline longevity on the table. And finally, no U.S. Government entity would stand for the national transportation system to be shut down due to labor strikes at that level. Even ALPA knows they won't acheive longevity protection.

 

[Spicepilots]

Spicepilot,

The resolution is for establishing seniority, not longevity. No airline would EVER give in to paying for another airline's longevity. No NMB would EVER release a pilot group for self-help with other airline longevity on the table. And finally, no U.S. Government entity would stand for the national transportation system to be shut down due to labor strikes at that level. Even ALPA knows they won't acheive longevity protection.

Then what's the point? What do we achieve if your seniority doesn't become portable when they establish the NSL?

 

[GeekMaster]

Then what's the point? What do we achieve if your seniority doesn't become portable when they establish the NSL?

Seniority would be portable. Remember seniority and longevity are two different things. You could have 10 years seniority and year one pay. The point would be that those UAL pilots would go to work for a regional with their seniority and upgrade immediately.....even taking captain seats off the street if the awards were available. They'd just be on year one captains payscale. (it does exist) The airline managements would love that.....year one captains pay.

 

[Flyby1206]

Seniority would be portable. Remember seniority and longevity are two different things. You could have 10 years seniority and year one pay. The point would be that those UAL pilots would go to work for a regional with their seniority and upgrade immediately.....even taking captain seats off the street if the awards were available. They'd just be on year one captains payscale. (it does exist) The airline managements would love that.....year one captains pay.

Would that work in reverse order as well? A 20 yr regional pilot going to a major and taking the first available upgrade?

 

[GeekMaster]

Would that work in reverse order as well? A 20 yr regional pilot going to a major and taking the first available upgrade?

That would all depend on what kind of details the "seniority committee" work out. That's what this entire discussion has been about. Those "benchmarks" mentioned almost certainly mean regional pilots would not receive very favorable treatment in seniority assignments.

 

[Flyby1206]

That would all depend on what kind of details the "seniority committee" work out. That's what this entire discussion has been about. Those "benchmarks" mentioned almost certainly mean regional pilots would not receive very favorable treatment in seniority assignments.

I would imagine this would be a catalyst for airline management to accelerate the shift of flying from majors to regionals. Why not downsize mainline flying and send those 20yr payscale pilots down to the regionals to start over at yr 1 pay.

I liked the idea of a universal start date (like Jan 1 2009) for a NSL to start and everyone being equal and starting to accrue seniority from that day forward. No it wouldnt be a quick fix, but usually the quick resolutions are the ones that come back to bite us later. Is this proposal from UAL so they can look out for themselves specifically? Or the industry as a whole?