National Seniority Protocol

[Nevets]

What Will Follow?

Rates of pay, work rules, scope and all of the rest will ultimately have commonality or single language because ALPA will have the clout to make that happen and because it is in the best interest of all parties. That will also establish a fair and non-decaying scale similar to the speed, weight and mileage formula that was arrived at in “decision 83” that served pilots so well, for so long.

ALPA has never been greedy and with the security derived from the national seniority list, negotiation tactics and goals will evolve evenly across the industry based on true production and efficiency. The crew costs will ultimately become fixed at all carriers based on the different aircraft types used and that will provide stability to each airlines bottom line. Airline managements will be forced to compete using good business practices and quality of service levels that only motivated, happy and secure employees can deliver with consistency.

The recent oil price crisis has proved that ticket prices can be raised and sustained to meet verifiable expense. The goal of ALPA to “fix” the cost of pilots within the industry will be met because of the National Seniority Protocol.

A national seniority list built using the protocols described earlier will change the way the aviation transportation industry is run. Animosity between management and labor will drop off sharply after the initial battle and that will be reflected all the way to the bottom line; Wall Street will love the results. Pilots will once again have fun going to work; and, the control of our profession will once again be in our hands.

 

[GeekMaster]

For example; if carrier X declared bankruptcy it might immediately announce pilot furloughs. Those furloughed, under the protocol, would be eligible to exercise their seniority at any of the carriers who had posted vacancies. In the same example, an entire company may go out of business. All pilots would then be eligible to exercise their seniority for posted vacancies at another carrier. The contractual provision at the active carriers would allow and enforce the rights of ALPA pilots who had lost their job, due to furlough or cessation of operations, to fill the vacancies and retain their longevity and seniority rights at any ALPA carrier who had vacancies. A uniform method of posting vacancies will need to be developed.

This is where Airline managements would balk. For ALPA to try and force artificially high priced labor (aka pre-seniored pilots) down their throats would put them in an uproar. Seniority they don't care about and would even embrace. (read my previous explanations) Longevity just ain't gonna happen.

Frankly, NO NMB WOULD EVER RELEASE A PILOT GROUP TO STRIKE WITH THAT ISSUE ON THE TABLE !!!!! It's hard enough to get released to strike simply fighting for regular issues. Ask the ASA Pilots. The idea of MULTIPLE ALPA AIRLINES going on strike at once will instantly draw government intervention as well. As long as the airlines stand together on not giving longevity to newhires from other airlines....it's not going to happen and there is nothing ALPA can do about it.

 

[Poahi]

By the way, let's look at that statement. Currently, with my credit hours, I make the same wage as a UAL F/O with the same seniority.

That UAL FO at your airline would be making first year pay - ie a pay cut. I think someone who was furloughed and expecting to stay at a regional for a while would want to improve his quality of life and wouldn't be shy about it. Management knows this. And here's another thing. This plan boasts it will give ALPA more bargaining power and will help standardize work rules, just what management wants, right?

Ultimately what this boils down to is a trade off: Junior pilots at regionals trade career progression and pay (at the regional level) for a chance at a slot at a major airline if that's what they want to do. They would leap frog the non-ALPA pilots and enjoy some degree of furlough protection.

The major pilots would be somewhat insulated from a loss of earnings from the demise of their carrier. They enjoy earnings protection but risk a super senior regional pilot blocking their career progression.

 

[GeekMaster]

That UAL FO at your airline would be making first year pay - ie a pay cut. I think someone who was furloughed and expecting to stay at a regional for a while would want to improve his quality of life and wouldn't be shy about it. Management knows this. And here's another thing. This plan boasts it will give ALPA more bargaining power and will help standardize work rules, just what management wants, right?

Ultimately what this boils down to is a trade off: Junior pilots at regionals trade career progression and pay (at the regional level) for a chance at a slot at a major airline if that's what they want to do. They would leap frog the non-ALPA pilots and enjoy some degree of furlough protection.

The major pilots would be somewhat insulated from a loss of earnings from the demise of their carrier. They enjoy earnings protection but risk a super senior regional pilot blocking their career progression.

Right now QOL at ASA is actually pretty good. Most of us know we have a descent contract....not perfect but good. It's also competitive enough to help with job security....no furloughs yet. Our union is pretty solid. We really wouldn't benefit from having the furloughed major pilots come on board.

On the otherhand, any national seniority list that uses a "weighted" formula to award current regional pilots vs. major airline pilots a seniority number would probably be detrimental to the current regional pilot's QOL. (that's an understatement) You've already acknowledged the trade-off so let's expand on that once again.

Current captains at regionals "could" (depending on seniority) find themselves having to bid very junior lines if UAL went bellyup and influxed those mega-senior captains into the regional system. In addition, as openings became available at other majors in the future, the regional captains would be harmed by those same UAL guys that put them back on "junk trips".

F/O's currently with a regional would suddenly see their upgrade potential as zero. Therefore NEVER being able to qualify for that dream job. So instead, they will look to a carrier such as Skywest.

Anykind of a "weighted" system is a raw deal for current regional pilots from top to bottom. It may sound good at first to some who think they won't have to "interview and compete" for those dream jobs, but a weighted system will totally be at the regional pilot's expense.

UAL isn't just trying to look after the "good of all ALPA pilots", they're trying to write their Last Will and Testament.

 

[PCL_128]

Most regional pilots aren't lifer losers who want to spend the rest of their careers working for an outsourced lift provider. Most regional pilots want to move on to the majors, and this would make that a hell of a lot easier. This would be the best interests of the overwhelming majority of regional pilots.

 

[Poahi]

Let's pretend for a moment that this system was in place and UAL furloughs, say, 3000 and enters bankruptcy. Of these pilots, let's say 2000 want to stay in aviation and 1500 want to take advantage of this concept. Of the airlines that are hiring right now, how many are ALPA carriers?

Delta (possibly)
Pinnacle maybe
ASA ?
Air Canada Jazz ?
Air Midwest no
Air Transat ?
Air Wisconsin ?
Alaska no
Aloha Island Air - sure
American Eagle no
ASTAR Air Cargo ?
Atlantic Southeast ?
Atlas Air Cargo ?
Comair No
CommutAir ?
Continental no
ExpressJet no
FedEx no
Freedom Airlines no
Gemini Air Cargo ?
Hawaiian no
Mesa Airlines no
Mesaba possibly
Midwest Airlines ?
Polar Air Cargo ?
PSA ?
Ryan ?
Spirit no
Trans States Airlines no

Of these carriers, how many have comparable pay vacancies? ie Captain slots? Are there 1500 positions among these carriers? How many experienced pilots are on the street now?

 

[GeekMaster]

There will no doubt be 1000's of experienced pilots on the street before this is all over. The only consideration at this point is that once those pilots reenter the market at another carrier, will it be at the QOL expense of the pilots already working there. The idea of a national seniority list would only work one way; that would be to have your seniority number assigned to you the first day you were a pilot for an ALPA carrier. So a guy who starts at a regional and stays there 10 years would have 10 years seniority. His classmate hired the same day works there six years and goes to UAL for 4 years would have the same seniority. (common hire date is settled by age in most cases, that's not important now)

Even this system would prove harmful to senior regional pilots in the event of a total closure of a carrier the size of UAL. But at least it would be fair. Unfortunately, the legacies aren't going to sign off on that. Therefore, expect this resolution to be defeated.

 

[GeekMaster]

Most regional pilots aren't lifer losers who want to spend the rest of their careers working for an outsourced lift provider. Most regional pilots want to move on to the majors, and this would make that a hell of a lot easier. This would be the best interests of the overwhelming majority of regional pilots.

Look at two VERY REAL possibilities in the near future. UAL goes Tango Uniform...then after the DAL/NWA merger is complete 600 pilots are no longer needed. Now there are several thousand pilots in the market place. Now let's say UAL/ALPA gets their way and a seniority "rig" is applied of say 3-1 for regional service. (3 years of regional service to accumulate one year of seniority) Now the overwhelming majority of those regional pilots are going to have to sit back and wait for almost ALL of those furloughed pilots to cycle back through at their expense before they can "exercise" that "right" to move up. You see that as "a hell of lot easier"?

 

[Poahi]

Rather than date of hire, how about your 'national seniority' starts effective today. That way, those already in the system are protected and the list will effectively become alive when the economy strengthens. Your company seniority position remains. It would take a while for this to benefit anyone, but it would not penalize anyone either.

If two ALPA pilots are hired by xyz ALPA airline tomorrow, the older one would have seniority much like is the practice today. This way they couldn't rise to the top of another seniority list above pilots currently at that airline. In the case of the regional, when the economy does improve, upgrades come fast and no one has an unfair advantage.

It's a long term fix for a short and long term problem.

Just a thought....

 

[GeekMaster]

Rather than date of hire, how about your 'national seniority' starts effective today. That way, those already in the system are protected and the list will effectively become alive when the economy strengthens. Your company seniority position remains. It would take a while for this to benefit anyone, but it would not penalize anyone either.

If two ALPA pilots are hired by xyz ALPA airline tomorrow, the older one would have seniority much like is the practice today. This way they couldn't rise to the top of another seniority list above pilots currently at that airline. In the case of the regional, when the economy does improve, upgrades come fast and no one has an unfair advantage.

It's a long term fix for a short and long term problem.

Just a thought....

The resolution wasn't written that way by the UAL MEC. It was written to include "career benchmarks" and have the formula worked out by a panel of 11 pilots with 6 representing the majors and only 5 representing the regionals.

That's the primary reason I've become vocal on this. It's important for all the regional pilots to thoroughly educate themselves about what this is going to do to their career before they start dancing around singing, "I'm going to the majors I'm going to the majors na-ni na-ni boo boo".

Again in it's current written form, this resolution is a grab for any life raft they can find for the UAL guys. If they really mean it for the good of ALPA pilots, change the language to something that doesn't harm the regional pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Most regional pilots aren't lifer losers who want to spend the rest of their careers working for an outsourced lift provider. Most regional pilots want to move on to the majors, and this would make that a hell of a lot easier. This would be the best interests of the overwhelming majority of regional pilots.

<Sigh>.....Forget it....I don't support this anymore....It's clear that this wouldn't be a fair national list...I should have known better....

PCL_128.....You basically fly for big regional....Those regional lifer losers are making far more than you with better schedules.....It's going to be a while before you make captain.....

Let's all stay separate and role the dice....

 

[PCL_128]

<Sigh>.....Forget it....I don't support this anymore...

Because of something I said? Perhaps you've forgotten, Joey, but I don't speak for ALPA. I have no idea how ALPA intends to set up this up. That will be up to the committee. Perhaps regional guys will get equal seniority. I don't know. Don't stop supporting something simply because you don't like my opinion about how seniority should be set up.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because of something I said? Perhaps you've forgotten, Joey, but I don't speak for ALPA. I have no idea how ALPA intends to set up this up. That will be up to the committee. Perhaps regional guys will get equal seniority. I don't know. Don't stop supporting something simply because you don't like my opinion about how seniority should be set up.

But the attitude of people like you and Rez. permeate this "association".....The prevailing wisdom of the elephants within ALPA is that a 2 year United pilot is higher up the evolutionary scale than a 25 year ASA or CMR "loser"....

There is too much risk to supporting this as long opinions like yours prevail in ALPA....

This could be a good thing...but Fins is correct...If we can't do this on a brand basis...how can we do it on a national basis.....?

 

[PCL_128]

But the attitude of people like you and Rez. permeate this "association".....

I'm a hell of a lot more militant than the average ALPA rep. Hell, I'm a hell of a lot more militant than Rez.

I suspect that ALPA will go above and beyond to make this system fair, if it ever gets off the floor at all. I suspect people like me will be the ones pissed off, not you, Joey.

 

[DoinTime]

The resolution wasn't written that way by the UAL MEC. It was written to include "career benchmarks" and have the formula worked out by a panel of 11 pilots with 6 representing the majors and only 5 representing the regionals.

To say that "regional" pilots will have 5 out of the 11 committee spots is being generous. The resolution has the MEC chairmen of each "B" and "C" group carriers choose their representative to the committee. Currently, "regional" carriers do not have the majority in groups B2 or B4.

What the canadian "C" group has to do with this I don't know as I don't think you could include them in the American National seniority list due to the inability of some and complexity of working across the border.

I think when it boiled down to the committee appointments you would only have 2-3 out of 11 that are representing the interests of the RJ drivers and our unique type of carriers.