National Seniority Protocol

Nevets

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[FONT=&quot]AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]September 9-10, 2008[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]SUBJECT[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]National Seniority Protocol[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]SOURCE[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]UAL MEC[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BACKGROUND INFORMATION[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See proposed resolution.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PROPOSED RESOLUTION[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 

lookin4better

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How do they even plan to deceide DOH? your first 121 carrier? Date of ATP? Date of initiation into ALPA the first time? This isnt a bad idea, however it wont work.....do AA pilots get included? So do the TWA pilots OR any other airlines that no longer exist with ALPA pilots get their numbers( they were due paying members when their companies went under---I would sure hope they do and believe me they deserve it.

I would hope that if this happens it would be hired at a ' certain list of carriers during a time period to be determined' ....i.e legacy/ major carriers.
 
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Nevets

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How do they even plan to deceide DOH? your first 121 carrier? Date of ATP? Date of initiation into ALPA the first time? This isnt a bad idea, however it wont work.....do AA pilots get included? So do the TWA pilots OR any other airlines that no longer exist with ALPA pilots get their numbers( they were due paying members when their companies went under---I would sure hope they do and believe me they deserve it.

I would hope that if this happens it would be hired at a ' certain list of carriers during a time period to be determined' ....i.e legacy/ major carriers.
Did you read the resolution? It tells us how they would do it and that it includes all professional pilot groups.
 

Dan Roman

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Can you imagine if this had been proposed back in the 90's when United was healthy and other airlines were in trouble? Somehow I don't think they would have been too receptive to USAir/ EAL, etc pilots transfering into UAL with seniority.
 

lookin4better

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I am not against this, it sounds like a great idea, however I can guarantee it will be for specific carriers only----regardless of what it says, the regionals will be left out.....and pilots will make sure of this---not companies.
 

Jon Rivoli

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Age times number of years since initial issue of ATP devided by number of years employed by 121 carrier?
 

Nevets

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I am not against this, it sounds like a great idea, however I can guarantee it will be for specific carriers only----regardless of what it says, the regionals will be left out.....and pilots will make sure of this---not companies.
Well, I think that is why you see the term "benchmarks" in the resolution. That is for the regional guys. Reread the resolution a little more slowly. It also says a committee will decide how this is done and that committee includes 5 regional pilots.
 

Nevets

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Can you imagine if this had been proposed back in the 90's when United was healthy and other airlines were in trouble? Somehow I don't think they would have been too receptive to USAir/ EAL, etc pilots transfering into UAL with seniority.
I know what you are saying but it needs to be done at some point. No time better than the present.
 

lookin4better

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Example:

military or any pilot gets hired at Delta, AA, CAL, UAL....1 year prior to this going into effect....

The pilot was HIRED at Delta because THAT is what they wanted to hire in a pilot, and he/she was more likely much more qualified then the 3 year regional pilot...he FIT what they wanted to hire. .....somoene at AE, XJ, XJT that has been there for 3 years gets to bumb him out? I think not, and believe me, the MECs and PILOTS at the bigger carriers will make SURE stuff like this is fenced off.

say a netjets or similar pilot wants to make the move....they are union and are professional pilots.

This is a great idea but highly unlikely without HUGE fences and a GIANT Etch-a-Sketch.

I wouldnt be too happy about this as a regional pilot, this wont get voted in by most of legacy / major pilots.
 

DoinTime

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BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,
I'd be willing to bet that the "starting point" will not include time spent working at non-ALPA carriers or non-union jobs unless you define the "starting point" as ZERO seniority. I think the only fair way to recognize past seniority in an all ALPA list is to only recognize time spent as an active ALPA pilot.
 

Nevets

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Example:

military or any pilot gets hired at Delta, AA, CAL, UAL....1 year prior to this going into effect....

The pilot was HIRED at Delta because THAT is what they wanted to hire in a pilot, and he/she was more likely much more qualified then the 3 year regional pilot...he FIT what they wanted to hire. .....somoene at AE, XJ, XJT that has been there for 3 years gets to bumb him out? I think not, and believe me, the MECs and PILOTS at the bigger carriers will make SURE stuff like this is fenced off.

say a netjets or similar pilot wants to make the move....they are union and are professional pilots.

This is a great idea but highly unlikely without HUGE fences and a GIANT Etch-a-Sketch.

I wouldnt be too happy about this as a regional pilot, this wont get voted in by most of legacy / major pilots.
Its a good concept in theory, I agree. There are many obstacles to implement. That is why this resolution creates a committee to try and resolve those concepts. It also invokes a vote to whatever the committee comes up with.
 

lookin4better

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Nevets ,

I do agree with you...I just see many many problems....( not with this document) but pilots in general.

This clearly is for ALL professional pilots and will most likely include ALL of them....as do other national senority lists....including 135 carriers.

I am not sure how you would feel if a 135 pilot , met benchmarks before you and was able to bid your seat....what you would do or react? Heck it sounds good to me, I have been doing this for 10 years in military, 135 and 121......seems like it would work out well.
 

Nevets

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I'd be willing to bet that the "starting point" will not include time spent working at non-ALPA carriers or non-union jobs unless you define the "starting point" as ZERO seniority. I think the only fair way to recognize past seniority in an all ALPA list is to only recognize time spent as an active ALPA pilot.
[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and[/FONT]
 

Nevets

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Nevets ,

I do agree with you...I just see many many problems....( not with this document) but pilots in general.

This clearly is for ALL professional pilots and will most likely include ALL of them....as do other national senority lists....including 135 carriers.

I am not sure how you would feel if a 135 pilot , met benchmarks before you and was able to bid your seat....what you would do or react? Heck it sounds good to me, I have been doing this for 10 years in military, 135 and 121......seems like it would work out well.
Yeah, pilots are their own worst enemy sometimes. Everybody has to be willing to sacrifice a little to do the right thing. And I beleive that this is the right thing to do. Its just too bad it hasn't been done already. Maybe its only something that can be implemented for new pilots going forward.
 

lookin4better

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I'd be willing to bet that the "starting point" will not include time spent working at non-ALPA carriers or non-union jobs unless you define the "starting point" as ZERO seniority. I think the only fair way to recognize past seniority in an all ALPA list is to only recognize time spent as an active ALPA pilot.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and





nope...

 

lookin4better

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Yeah, pilots are their own worst enemy sometimes. Everybody has to be willing to sacrifice a little to do the right thing. And I beleive that this is the right thing to do. Its just too bad it hasn't been done already. Maybe its only something that can be implemented for new pilots going forward.

totally agree....everyone would probably hurt a bit at first.....but ONE list.....with ONE union equals the SAME pay all around for the SAME equipment....and THAT is a good thing. :)
 

DoinTime

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[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and[/FONT]
This BIFR paragraph will surely be left on the cutting room floor. In order for this to pass any vote their will have to be some reciprocity by the other Unions. What do you think the odds are of the APA, NPA, or non-union shops recognizing ALPA seniority?
 

Nevets

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This BIFR paragraph will surely be left on the cutting room floor. In order for this to pass any vote their will have to be some reciprocity by the other Unions. What do you think the odds are of the APA, NPA, or non-union shops recognizing ALPA seniority?
Those unions wont but when one of their members accepts a job at an ALPA carrier they will accept the ALPA policies as part of their condition of employment. Notice that the resolution also calls for this to be included in all future contracts.

So its not so much that any other union recognize the seniority. ALPA will include their pilots in this seniority protocol which they could decide to be a part of if they choose to work for an ALPA carrier.
 
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