Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

National Seniority Protocol

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
The seniority system has to be done away with, not made bigger. A national seniority list will not protect pilots from furlough, or the 1113(c) process.

If you chose an airline that went bust, such is life. You lost, accept it and move on...you are not entitled to a position at another airline.
 
Poahi said:
No one has mentioned how this is going to be sold to the ALPA carriers.... What's the incentive for the airlines to agree to this?
Click to expand...
Airlines would love it because only your seniority would come over with the move, longevity would not transfer. If a company posts a captain vacancy, it is bid on by pilots nation wide. No one gets moved out of their current seat.
 
Longevity would have to be retained as well, to remove management incentive to constantly find new, inexpensive bodies.

I'm all for this, in part because I put in over ten years at a regional, took a chance at United, and now my seniority is worthless at my old job, or any other carrier.
I try to explain why I can't go back to my old job to non-aviation friends, or friends who are part of REAL unions, and they can't believe it....

The present seniority system needs to be either trashed completely, or reformed to be a true national union....we all pay dues to the same union, mostly.

Regardless, the real problem here stems from outsourcing, and c-scale careers at regionals...
 
saabservant said:
Longevity would have to be retained as well, to remove management incentive to constantly find new, inexpensive bodies.

I'm all for this, in part because I put in over ten years at a regional, took a chance at United, and now my seniority is worthless at my old job, or any other carrier.
I try to explain why I can't go back to my old job to non-aviation friends, or friends who are part of REAL unions, and they can't believe it....

The present seniority system needs to be either trashed completely, or reformed to be a true national union....we all pay dues to the same union, mostly.

Regardless, the real problem here stems from outsourcing, and c-scale careers at regionals...
Click to expand...

I'm not trashing your decision to further your career. But why do you feel you're entitled to return to your old company with full seniority? I've said on here before I would be on board with some sort of portable longevity in regards to pay, but this proposal seems more like a Trojan Horse designed to give mainline pilots "bumping rights" at the regionals. I'll be interested to see if this idea gets any traction.
 
saabservant said:
The present seniority system needs to be either trashed completely, or reformed to be a true national union....we all pay dues to the same union, mostly.
Click to expand...

Until the self serving pilot groups at carriers like American, UPS, JetBlue, and Airtran (among others) get on board a "national" pilots union is but something to strive for.
 
Dan Roman said:
Nevets,
You appear in favor of this but I take it you fly for a regional. As I see it, if UAL craters (which is what this is all about) you would be ineligable for a mainline job for the foreseable future, no point in even applying for a job anywere else untill all of UAL's ex pilots have a job.
Click to expand...

I'm in favor of a national seniority list. And I do fly for a regional. I may not like everything in this resolution mostly because I don't understand exactly what they are getting at, such as the "benchmark" term. But according to this resolution, a committee of pilots from both major and regional carriers would come up with the protocol. And it also calls for a vote. I put it out here for everyone to contact their MEC chairman to tell him how you feel about this resolution, ask him to propose an amendment, vote in favor or against it, etc.

I agree that this can have negative consequences depending on how its implemented and that is why I posted it. I personally think that the concept is a good idea but it needs to be done right the first time and this may be an attempt at that.
 
SLUF4 said:
What would happen in a furlough situation? Say my airline is doing badly and furloughs and I want to go over to a properly staffed airline with no open positions. Would the properly staffed airline then have to furlough someone to make room for me to come over? Maybe I'm over-thinking this.
Click to expand...

Talk to your MEC chairman and tell him that this is a concern of yours.

I personally don't see them implementing this where a pilot can displace another one. There would probably have to be a vacancy.
 
Poahi said:
It gets worse than that. FO's at the regionals won't be able to upgrade and get their domicile because they would be blocked. And the captains would be subject to greater risk of downgrading or being awarded the domicile of their choice if there is any hickup in staffing. It's close to a nationwide flowback, just without the furloughs - at least initially.

In a game of musical chairs, someone is always left standing.
Click to expand...

Or you can look at it as being able to bid for vacancies across company lines rather than just at your current company. I don't know if that is what this resolution is getting at but I don't see it the way you do if in fact this is the case.
 
Poahi said:
No one has mentioned how this is going to be sold to the ALPA carriers.... What's the incentive for the airlines to agree to this?
Click to expand...

There probably isn't much incentive to management. The resolution calls for the inclusion of this seniority protocol policy in the contracts so presumably there would be some leverage used up for putting it in the contract.
 
YourPilotFriend said:
The seniority system has to be done away with, not made bigger. A national seniority list will not protect pilots from furlough, or the 1113(c) process.

If you chose an airline that went bust, such is life. You lost, accept it and move on...you are not entitled to a position at another airline.
Click to expand...

How is not having a seniority system protect pilots from furlough or the 1113c process?

And just because "such is life" doesn't mean that "such" cannot be made better.
 
ifly4u said:
I'm not trashing your decision to further your career. But why do you feel you're entitled to return to your old company with full seniority? I've said on here before I would be on board with some sort of portable longevity in regards to pay, but this proposal seems more like a Trojan Horse designed to give mainline pilots "bumping rights" at the regionals. I'll be interested to see if this idea gets any traction.
Click to expand...

I think he is comparing other unions in which the starting over doesn't occur when you decide to further your career. In fact, this isn't the case in non-union jobs as well. We are probably the only profession that does this to ourselves, no credit for prior experience.
 
Nevets said:
Or you can look at it as being able to bid for vacancies across company lines rather than just at your current company. I don't know if that is what this resolution is getting at but I don't see it the way you do if in fact this is the case.
Click to expand...

They way this logic is headed, it would make ALPA an employee leasing company. ALPA could employ the pilots, train and type them then charge the airlines a fee for their services. In that fee, they could bury benefits, retirement and other costs which would immunize the pilots from their bankruptcies.

If an airline did file, they would negotiate with ALPA as a vendor, outside the RLA and perhaps the pilots could rebid if ALPA endorsed a change in the contract.

One possible benefit to the company might be in training costs if ALPA could deliver pilots who would only need company 'differences' training. I'd bet despite the issues with ALPA, they could deliver services more efficiently than the carriers.
 
this really won't go anywhere unless people are willing to go beyond the "this is how it has always been done" mentality.

When Dave Behnke was first organizing in the 1930's, it was a different environment, going from one carrier to another. It is time we move beyond that, to a fuller, stronger idea of what a pilot costs, regardless of the company.
It would also make alpa national even stronger, able to stand up to hostile managements and bankruptcy judges.
 
What a crock. I'll be the first to say it. This idea screams against reason. The flames may fly, but this is a foolish idea.
 
Funny how the UAL pilots are in favor of this now that a THOUSAND of them are going to be on the street. Of course, it would be wonderful to just walk over to the most solvent carrier and present your card and bump down everyone else "junior" to you. It's a junk idea, and they never would have supported it when times were good.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top