National Seniority Protocol

[Poahi]

Let's pretend for a moment that this system was in place and UAL furloughs, say, 3000 and enters bankruptcy. Of these pilots, let's say 2000 want to stay in aviation and 1500 want to take advantage of this concept. Of the airlines that are hiring right now, how many are ALPA carriers?

Delta (possibly)
Pinnacle maybe
ASA ?
Air Canada Jazz ?
Air Midwest no
Air Transat ?
Air Wisconsin ?
Alaska no
Aloha Island Air - sure
American Eagle no
ASTAR Air Cargo ?
Atlantic Southeast ?
Atlas Air Cargo ?
Comair No
CommutAir ?
Continental no
ExpressJet no
FedEx no
Freedom Airlines no
Gemini Air Cargo ?
Hawaiian no
Mesa Airlines no
Mesaba possibly
Midwest Airlines ?
Polar Air Cargo ?
PSA ?
Ryan ?
Spirit no
Trans States Airlines no

Of these carriers, how many have comparable pay vacancies? ie Captain slots? Are there 1500 positions among these carriers? How many experienced pilots are on the street now?

 

[GeekMaster]

There will no doubt be 1000's of experienced pilots on the street before this is all over. The only consideration at this point is that once those pilots reenter the market at another carrier, will it be at the QOL expense of the pilots already working there. The idea of a national seniority list would only work one way; that would be to have your seniority number assigned to you the first day you were a pilot for an ALPA carrier. So a guy who starts at a regional and stays there 10 years would have 10 years seniority. His classmate hired the same day works there six years and goes to UAL for 4 years would have the same seniority. (common hire date is settled by age in most cases, that's not important now)

Even this system would prove harmful to senior regional pilots in the event of a total closure of a carrier the size of UAL. But at least it would be fair. Unfortunately, the legacies aren't going to sign off on that. Therefore, expect this resolution to be defeated.

 

[GeekMaster]

Most regional pilots aren't lifer losers who want to spend the rest of their careers working for an outsourced lift provider. Most regional pilots want to move on to the majors, and this would make that a hell of a lot easier. This would be the best interests of the overwhelming majority of regional pilots.

Look at two VERY REAL possibilities in the near future. UAL goes Tango Uniform...then after the DAL/NWA merger is complete 600 pilots are no longer needed. Now there are several thousand pilots in the market place. Now let's say UAL/ALPA gets their way and a seniority "rig" is applied of say 3-1 for regional service. (3 years of regional service to accumulate one year of seniority) Now the overwhelming majority of those regional pilots are going to have to sit back and wait for almost ALL of those furloughed pilots to cycle back through at their expense before they can "exercise" that "right" to move up. You see that as "a hell of lot easier"?

 

[Poahi]

Rather than date of hire, how about your 'national seniority' starts effective today. That way, those already in the system are protected and the list will effectively become alive when the economy strengthens. Your company seniority position remains. It would take a while for this to benefit anyone, but it would not penalize anyone either.

If two ALPA pilots are hired by xyz ALPA airline tomorrow, the older one would have seniority much like is the practice today. This way they couldn't rise to the top of another seniority list above pilots currently at that airline. In the case of the regional, when the economy does improve, upgrades come fast and no one has an unfair advantage.

It's a long term fix for a short and long term problem.

Just a thought....

 

[GeekMaster]

Rather than date of hire, how about your 'national seniority' starts effective today. That way, those already in the system are protected and the list will effectively become alive when the economy strengthens. Your company seniority position remains. It would take a while for this to benefit anyone, but it would not penalize anyone either.

If two ALPA pilots are hired by xyz ALPA airline tomorrow, the older one would have seniority much like is the practice today. This way they couldn't rise to the top of another seniority list above pilots currently at that airline. In the case of the regional, when the economy does improve, upgrades come fast and no one has an unfair advantage.

It's a long term fix for a short and long term problem.

Just a thought....

The resolution wasn't written that way by the UAL MEC. It was written to include "career benchmarks" and have the formula worked out by a panel of 11 pilots with 6 representing the majors and only 5 representing the regionals.

That's the primary reason I've become vocal on this. It's important for all the regional pilots to thoroughly educate themselves about what this is going to do to their career before they start dancing around singing, "I'm going to the majors I'm going to the majors na-ni na-ni boo boo".

Again in it's current written form, this resolution is a grab for any life raft they can find for the UAL guys. If they really mean it for the good of ALPA pilots, change the language to something that doesn't harm the regional pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Most regional pilots aren't lifer losers who want to spend the rest of their careers working for an outsourced lift provider. Most regional pilots want to move on to the majors, and this would make that a hell of a lot easier. This would be the best interests of the overwhelming majority of regional pilots.

<Sigh>.....Forget it....I don't support this anymore....It's clear that this wouldn't be a fair national list...I should have known better....

PCL_128.....You basically fly for big regional....Those regional lifer losers are making far more than you with better schedules.....It's going to be a while before you make captain.....

Let's all stay separate and role the dice....

 

[PCL_128]

<Sigh>.....Forget it....I don't support this anymore...

Because of something I said? Perhaps you've forgotten, Joey, but I don't speak for ALPA. I have no idea how ALPA intends to set up this up. That will be up to the committee. Perhaps regional guys will get equal seniority. I don't know. Don't stop supporting something simply because you don't like my opinion about how seniority should be set up.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because of something I said? Perhaps you've forgotten, Joey, but I don't speak for ALPA. I have no idea how ALPA intends to set up this up. That will be up to the committee. Perhaps regional guys will get equal seniority. I don't know. Don't stop supporting something simply because you don't like my opinion about how seniority should be set up.

But the attitude of people like you and Rez. permeate this "association".....The prevailing wisdom of the elephants within ALPA is that a 2 year United pilot is higher up the evolutionary scale than a 25 year ASA or CMR "loser"....

There is too much risk to supporting this as long opinions like yours prevail in ALPA....

This could be a good thing...but Fins is correct...If we can't do this on a brand basis...how can we do it on a national basis.....?

 

[PCL_128]

But the attitude of people like you and Rez. permeate this "association".....

I'm a hell of a lot more militant than the average ALPA rep. Hell, I'm a hell of a lot more militant than Rez.

I suspect that ALPA will go above and beyond to make this system fair, if it ever gets off the floor at all. I suspect people like me will be the ones pissed off, not you, Joey.

 

[DoinTime]

The resolution wasn't written that way by the UAL MEC. It was written to include "career benchmarks" and have the formula worked out by a panel of 11 pilots with 6 representing the majors and only 5 representing the regionals.

To say that "regional" pilots will have 5 out of the 11 committee spots is being generous. The resolution has the MEC chairmen of each "B" and "C" group carriers choose their representative to the committee. Currently, "regional" carriers do not have the majority in groups B2 or B4.

What the canadian "C" group has to do with this I don't know as I don't think you could include them in the American National seniority list due to the inability of some and complexity of working across the border.

I think when it boiled down to the committee appointments you would only have 2-3 out of 11 that are representing the interests of the RJ drivers and our unique type of carriers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm a hell of a lot more militant than the average ALPA rep. Hell, I'm a hell of a lot more militant than Rez.

Yet you accused my neg. committee of "asking for too much" in '98"....That would make me more militant.....Hmmmm..........

I suspect that ALPA will go above and beyond to make this system fair, if it ever gets off the floor at all. I suspect people like me will be the ones pissed off, not you, Joey.

See the above post by DoinTme.....I should have known better....This will be stacked in the favor of the mainline pilots.....Too much at risk to support it...even if it is a good idea in theory....

 

[GeekMaster]

To say that "regional" pilots will have 5 out of the 11 committee spots is being generous. The resolution has the MEC chairmen of each "B" and "C" group carriers choose their representative to the committee. Currently, "regional" carriers do not have the majority in groups B2 or B4.

What the canadian "C" group has to do with this I don't know as I don't think you could include them in the American National seniority list due to the inability of some and complexity of working across the border.

I think when it boiled down to the committee appointments you would only have 2-3 out of 11 that are representing the interests of the RJ drivers and our unique type of carriers.

All the more reason we are in a position to get sodomized. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Way2Broke]

We can go ahead and re-regulate airlines while we are at it.

Want to see it all get better again? Gov't regulated airlines and a national seniority list are the answers.

 

[GeekMaster]

I just thought of something.....all you ALPA insiders out there..... is ASA's TZ head of one of those B groups? I'm not sure exactly what his position is but I thought it was somewhere along that lines. Isn't he the one that "moved" for the failed resolution to tax 401K contributions?

Just questions...no accusations.

 

[PCL_128]

Too much at risk to support it...even if it is a good idea in theory....

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

 

[GeekMaster]

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

I don't think Joe is basing it on "MIGHT". The language is already there in the resolution; referencing career "benchmarks" when developing the seniority formula and minimal representation on the appointed committee.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

Yes because the risk is too high....It's smart to do a risk/reward analysis.....The risk is too high given the prevailing wisdom...which you agree with....

We couldn't get the Delta MEC to go for a single list on the DAL property back in 2000.....Fins is right....Why not do it on a "brand" basis first? Even then there is the prevailing attitude that a mainline newhire is higher up the food chain than a 25 year regional "lifer"......

You and I have argued about this for years....Your attitude is the prevailing attitude....Mine is the minority...Sorry I don't trust anyone in this "association" to do what is best for me....

It was short lived....but I have withdrawn my support....This "association" is doomed....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think Joe is basing it on "MIGHT". The language is already there in the resolution; referencing career "benchmarks" when developing the seniority formula and minimal representation on the appointed committee.

You are correct GeekMaster...In my excitement that ALPA might actually start acting more like a real union, I initially supported this proposal....However as I read it more closely and listened to others, I have come to the belief that there is too much down side....

 

[DoinTime]

I just thought of something.....all you ALPA insiders out there..... is ASA's TZ head of one of those B groups? I'm not sure exactly what his position is but I thought it was somewhere along that lines. Isn't he the one that "moved" for the failed resolution to tax 401K contributions?

Just questions...no accusations.

I would never call myself an insider but according to the back page of Air Line Pilot, Tom is the Executive Council representative for the B2 group.

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

This is a good idea in principle. The devil is always in the details though. Hopefully, this can worked out to something reasonable for everyone. Reasonable is quiet a ways off from this resolution as written though.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is a good idea in principle. The devil is always in the details though. Hopefully, this can worked out to something reasonable for everyone. Reasonable is quiet a ways off from this resolution as written though.

Who'd a ever thunk I would agree with DoinTime.....The "benchmarks" and seniority method have to be spelled out in advance for me to support it.....Take care of that and I will put my ALPA pom-poms back on.....

Sorry but "I'll still love you in the morning" isn't going to cut it........