National Seniority Protocol

[Rez O. Lewshun]

BRAVO!.....ALPA is starting to get the message.....Don't stop the pressure....IT IS WORKING.....

We must support this....

Rez....What do you think?

I haven't read the entire document..... I will and let it digest then reply later...

however,

at first glance...

If UAL is doing this b/c they feel their ship is sinking and they are looking for another haven, then is it really a good reason?

It seems reactionary.... how about we get back to basics and fundamentals instead of trying new ideas that look like polarization. We need real leadership and REAL followership. Is a new system going to substitute for that?

Before you reply that I am too traditional or stuck in the past.... I am not... as I said I need to review the docs for a few days... again at first glance it seems like it might just cause too much animosity between groups. In addition, how pragmatic is it?


As I said... I'll reply in a few days...


Cautiously optimistic...

 

[belchfire]

It'll end up being based on what reserve squadron you are in...

 

[milky]

Who the hell are you guys to tell a company who they have to hire? We are not socialists. If a company wants to hire a brand new pilot with the FAA minimums for whatever job is being filled, there is nothing that you should be able to do about it. The market will dictate who gets hired by whom.

Right now, there are a ton of dudes willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to make $20,000/year. So, go ahead and try to force the airlines to hire you as a 15 year airline pilot when they have to pay you much more than a new guy. Right now, pilots with a lot of hours are willing to work for not very much money. Until that ends, there will be no reason for an airline to pay more.

 

[PCL_128]

Please stay in the military.

 

[Nevets]

Who the hell are you guys to tell a company who they have to hire? We are not socialists. If a company wants to hire a brand new pilot with the FAA minimums for whatever job is being filled, there is nothing that you should be able to do about it. The market will dictate who gets hired by whom.

Right now, there are a ton of dudes willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to make $20,000/year. So, go ahead and try to force the airlines to hire you as a 15 year airline pilot when they have to pay you much more than a new guy. Right now, pilots with a lot of hours are willing to work for not very much money. Until that ends, there will be no reason for an airline to pay more.

The problem is that this profession isn't the free market as you suggest it is. The fundamental problem is that this is probably one of the only professions where prior experience doesn't matter when it comes to compensation. If you are unfortunate enough to be employed by an airline that goes BK, furloughs, etc, you cannot just market yourself to another airline with your experience and be offered a job with commensurate pay according to that experience. You are just recycled to first year pay and that is exactly how management wants it. Any other job, you can demand a salary commensurate with your experience.

 

[Jetpipeovht]

Who the hell are you guys to tell a company who they have to hire? We are not socialists. If a company wants to hire a brand new pilot with the FAA minimums for whatever job is being filled, there is nothing that you should be able to do about it. The market will dictate who gets hired by whom.

Right now, there are a ton of dudes willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to make $20,000/year. So, go ahead and try to force the airlines to hire you as a 15 year airline pilot when they have to pay you much more than a new guy. Right now, pilots with a lot of hours are willing to work for not very much money. Until that ends, there will be no reason for an airline to pay more.

Yourself included with exception of the debt part.

 

[GeekMaster]

Guys/Gals: there's a big difference between seniority and longevity. Airlines base pilot pay on longevity not seniority. Therefore, this would be an easy sell to regional airline managements. WHY?

Because lets say UAL tanks and all those pilots are now available for employment with their elevated seniority levels. Now let's look at say ASA, Comair, XJT and Pinnacle needing to hire a few hundred pilots over the next couple of years. (or whenever they finally need them....doesn't matter for this demo) They would quickly snap up all those jobless UAL pilots with high seniority numbers.

Those pilots would go to work at all those regionals at longevity pay as YEAR 1.....That's right year 1. THEN....as upgrades at those same airlines become available, those super high seniority number exUAL pilots will get the captain awards. The company will save lots of money because they will actually have year one captains.

This is NOT a good deal for regional pilots on SO MANY LEVELS. We haven't EVEN touched on what those "BENCHMARKS" might be, but I can guarantee one thing; it will have plenty to do with giving a better/higher seniority number to pilots at the majors than for the regional guys.

 

[Poahi]

Therefore, this would be an easy sell to regional airline managements.

GeekMaster,

Back up the bus for a second. There are two things which balance this argument.

For one, if you take a bunch of pilots from UAL and others who are used to having decent pay and work rules and put them in a regional for several years, they are going to educate the group and push for better work rules, pay rates and everything else - and they have a vote. That's going to be expensive - really expensive. I'm not saying an educated pilot group is bad, but I don't think management is going to warm up to it quite so easily.

Most of the regional pilots who have been in the industry for only a few years don't know how much they are being taken advantage of and now you're both educating them and preventing them from getting the PIC time they need to graduate from Hard Times University. They won't be able to pay back the $150,000 they are going to have in loans because they are suck at $22,000 per year and they aren't going to be happy. The regionals bank on attrition to deal with the lack of pay and work rules and you're suggesting they wait it out until UAL starts hiring again? It's not going to work.

Secondly, the regionals are going to have increased costs for more senior FO's at higher pay rates who are blocked from upgrading by these guys. And they are going to be disgruntled because the senior guys have kept them down for many years and have virtually guaranteed them no job at a major for quite some time.

This concept isn't practical and will drive a wedge between the regional and the major airline pilots. And when all is said and done, a new 'ALPA free' regional will start promising fast upgrades and low pay and the 20 somethings will be banging down their door. They will earn far more that way and still have a shot at another carrier. - at least that's how it will be sold to them.

Sounds familiar?

 

[PCL_128]

but I can guarantee one thing; it will have plenty to do with giving a better/higher seniority number to pilots at the majors than for the regional guys.

I would certainly hope so.

 

[GeekMaster]

GeekMaster,

Back up the bus for a second. There are two things which balance this argument.

For one, if you take a bunch of pilots from UAL and others who are used to having decent pay and work rules and put them in a regional for several years, they are going to educate the group and push for better work rules, pay rates and everything else - and they have a vote. That's going to be expensive - really expensive. I'm not saying an educated pilot group is bad, but I don't think management is going to warm up to it quite so easily.

Most of the regional pilots who have been in the industry for only a few years don't know how much they are being taken advantage of and now you're both educating them and preventing them from getting the PIC time they need to graduate from Hard Times University. They won't be able to pay back the $150,000 they are going to have in loans because they are suck at $22,000 per year and they aren't going to be happy. The regionals bank on attrition to deal with the lack of pay and work rules and you're suggesting they wait it out until UAL starts hiring again? It's not going to work.

Secondly, the regionals are going to have increased costs for more senior FO's at higher pay rates who are blocked from upgrading by these guys. And they are going to be disgruntled because the senior guys have kept them down for many years and have virtually guaranteed them no job at a major for quite some time.

This concept isn't practical and will drive a wedge between the regional and the major airline pilots. And when all is said and done, a new 'ALPA free' regional will start promising fast upgrades and low pay and the 20 somethings will be banging down their door. They will earn far more that way and still have a shot at another carrier. - at least that's how it will be sold to them.

Sounds familiar?

I made a choice long ago to stay at a regional for quality of life and allow me to run my side business. Since that time many pilots have come to my airline, logged their time and gone on to their major airline dream job. Good for them. I'm happy for them to acheive their dream. But that wasn't my dream. I can think of NO ARRANGEMENT where those who have come after me can come back to my airline and be senior to me that is acceptable.

I suppose if they counted all part 121 time served equally, they'd be getting closer. Even then I'd have to look. In otherwords if UAL pilot served 6 years at a 121 regional and 2 years at UAL, he'd have 8 years seniority. Unfortunately, I don't see those 6 out of 11 votes coming from the majors agreeing to anything like that with the "benchmark" language.

If ALPA were to jam this down the regional carriers throats in such a way that penalizes the regional pilots, you can pretty much guarantee most of them will secede.

 

[GeekMaster]

"For one, if you take a bunch of pilots from UAL and others who are used to having decent pay and work rules and put them in a regional for several years, they are going to educate the group and push for better work rules, pay rates and everything else"

By the way, let's look at that statement. Currently, with my credit hours, I make the same wage as a UAL F/O with the same seniority. Yes I've checked and know a couple personally and we've talked. In addition to that, I get more days off each month.

In the airline industry, seniority is everything. While I think the "concept" of a single national list is great, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE JOB PROTECTION FOR THE MAJORS AT MY EXPENSE.

 

[GeekMaster]

"Secondly, the regionals are going to have increased costs for more senior FO's at higher pay rates who are blocked from upgrading by these guys. And they are going to be disgruntled because the senior guys have kept them down for many years and have virtually guaranteed them no job at a major for quite some time."

Now let's look at that statement. First officers cost a lot less money than captains. Matter of fact, at many regionals, first officer pay scales may only go to 7 or 8 years. Now as discussed earlier, longevity and seniority are two different things. Therefore, if a company has 10 captain awards for a given month and there are 10 F/O's with year one pay and the highest seniority numbers, the company saves more than enough on those year one captains versus year 6 guys to pay those senior F/O's.

As a result, those senior F/O's will realize they are doomed and head off to one of those non-ALPA carriers of which you speak (aka Skywest) to get their quick upgrade. That opens up MORE slots at the F/O level for the company to hire more year one pilots saving them even more.

Tell me how this is a good deal for the regionals again?

 

[Nevets]

Here is the white paper on this. Its long so I've cut it into three posts.


​

 

[Nevets]

AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION INTERNATIONAL​

NATIONAL SENIORITY PROTOCOL ​

~TIMING and OPPORTUNITY~​

History and Pipe Dreams

The logical point in ALPA’s history to institute a national seniority protocol was concurrent with the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. Prior to Deregulation all airline pilot groups were relatively stable and secure but the tide was about to turn. ALPA tried to legislate a quasi “national seniority rights” provision with the inclusion of Section 43 of the Act called: LPP’s or Labor Protective Provisions. This legislative approach fell short because of the failure of ALPA to follow through and due to the failure of Congress to “fund” the promise made to ALPA that pilots harmed by deregulation would be made whole.

Section 43 of the Act, promised “first right of hire” if you lost your job because of deregulation; and, once a pilot was re-hired, the provision relied on Congress to establish a method to pay the difference in salary between new hire pay and the longevity pay that the displaced pilot had already acquired at his previous airline. Implementation of this politically negotiated “piece” for ALPA was delayed by the Carter administration and killed deader than a doornail by Reagan as he started his anti-labor reign. Recycling pilots was one of the primary goals of those promoting Deregulation! It was all done in the name of competition which would drive the cost to consumers down; primarily at the expense of pilots and all other labor.

However it is important to note that the effort by ALPA to negotiate the inclusion of LPP’s was based on a parochial “Haves and Have Not’s” view by ALPA leaders that sought to reinforce that the pilot was tied to an airline rather than a pilot being tied to the profession in the truest union sense. The mobility of seniority in other words, was trumped by parochial attitudes. Seniority did not go past the companies’ gates. Pilots had bought into the belief that because they had “invested” careers into a company, they “owned” it in their own minds; they tried to be “partners” with management; the pilots had deceived themselves for decades in this vain and economically illogical belief. The managements, one and all, throughout the first 45 years of commercial aviation did nothing to dispel the illusion that pilots clung to, because they were carving out empires and they knew an aviation empire was not possible without pilots.

One other effort to institute a national seniority list was made in about 1986. This compromise effort was an honest attempt to showcase the value to the profession of a national list and enlist the far-sighted vision of the political leaders of ALPA. Unfortunately, the leaders were still hamstrung by the same old parochial “ownership illusion”. The compromise was to set a date beyond all current ALPA members and institute the concept of a National List for all new members after a certain date. Had this concept been accepted in the mid ‘80’s it would still not be implemented today. This effort while noble and far-sighted gained no traction for several reasons but mostly because it was too far removed from the overriding psychological need of pilots to be the beneficiaries of their own actions. “What’s in it for me?” still rules in ALPA in 2008.

Enactment of a National Seniority Protocol in 2009 will give immediate career security to every Air Line Pilot in ALPA.

Timing and Opportunity

The timing and opportunity for ALPA to adopt and institute a national seniority protocol in 2009 is tied to two key elements.

1.)It is indeed a significant moment in ALPA history when as many as 36 ALPA bargaining groups all have amendable dates within 4 year window from 2007 – 2011. Two years into this window only a couple of pilot groups have negotiated new contracts. This alignment of amendable dates is the by-product of the ATA’s “me too” strategy that has basically cut the wages and working conditions for pilots by close to 50% during the bankruptcy era.

ALPA negotiators have worked hard as well to structure this ladder of amendable dates in the hopes that having strong ALPA groups negotiating first would help raise all groups. This “pattern bargaining” is what the industry is prepared for. Additionally, the current weak economy is not conducive to substantial labor gains; and it is problematic at this time that ALPA’s strategy will produce the desired results.

The manipulation of the bankruptcy laws (sec. 1113 in particular) was used as a hammer to decimate nearly 40 years of negotiated pay and work rule gains at every carrier whether in bankruptcy or not; it was not done in a vacuum. Industry leaders played to the political dogma under the Bush administration and took advantage of the economic fallout from a national catastrophe and a crippled transportation system to manipulate a complete restructuring of labor costs in a mature and heavily unionized industry. ALPA is currently fighting for reform of the 1113 rules; 5 years after the damage has been done.

The timing is perfect to use the momentum of the ATA’s own plan against them. They are not ready for a totally new direction from ALPA. Realigning ALPA members’ loyalty to their profession instead of to the colors on the tail will completely change the game. Political change in Washington aligned with a rejuvenated membership focused on the biggest positive change in ALPA’s history will be unstoppable.
.
2.)ALPA members and all air line pilots have come to understand that a parochial loyalty to a specific brand has not assured any pilot a secure career. The evidence is the number of bankruptcies and outright failures in the first 30 years of this deregulated era and the devastation that those failures have had on several generations of professional air line pilots. Fee for departure carriers and Legacy carriers alike have been whipsawed both in bankruptcy court and out. We have been had! We have lost control of our profession. The solution for reclaiming control of our profession is right before us; a national seniority protocol.

The flying and jobs controlled today by the fee for departure carriers was once nearly all done by pilots working for the Legacy airlines. Those pilots in other times would have been on the seniority lists of the Legacy groups and we should negotiate two way flow rights as a part of code share and scope; but, the over-riding problem is job loss and the inability of a pilot to resume his career at a different carrier with the benefits of his seniority intact. Air Line Pilots have been talking about the need for a national seniority list and the rights and security that would naturally follow for the last 3 decades. The opportunity is before us; make no mistake, Line Pilots are eager to bridge this last remaining chasm in their professional security.

Psychologically pilots will be supportive of instituting a protocol which will secure their professional path. They recognize the value to their own careers as well as future ALPA members of a policy that acknowledges and anticipates carrier failures but insulates their professional path from disaster.

Timing and opportunity are just words without leadership and vision. Pilots are skilled professionals; and the lesson learned is that our loyalty is best reserved for our collective professional interests rather than a myriad of corporate ones. If ALPA pilots want to reclaim control of their profession, they must act as trade unionists and extend the union principals and rights of seniority that will tie our careers to our profession instead of a specific company. Everything that follows adoption of this policy will be good for every current and future ALPA member.

ALPA: The Pilots Union

When ALPA adopts and institutes a national seniority protocol that is transparent and simple; that uses a starting point common to all air line pilots and from which all seniority benefits arise; that enforces the pilots ability to transfer his professional longevity and experience without losing the benefits of his seniority; then, virtually every professional air line pilot in the United States and Canada will skeptically question, analytically dissect the protocol, and then demand that he is represented by ALPA in order to secure his national seniority number and the rights that go with it.

Union finances will no longer be an issue. Expenses previously allocated to mergers and fragmentation will dwindle to nothing and organizing expenses will be saved. The union will be able to focus its resources in many ways currently restricted by budgetary constraints. Duplication of effort by competing pilot unions will be eliminated and the financial strength of the single union will grow exponentially.

The anticipated growth of ALPA membership will enrich the union beyond the monetary metric. New and better ideas, depth of leadership, engaged and reinvigorated membership, broader political influence: all positive benefits of a National Seniority Protocol.

 

[Nevets]

Merger & Fragmentation Policy

Airline mergers and seniority list integrations, formulated under ALPA policy, have been the most divisive and destructive internal element affecting ALPA pilots since its founding in 1931. No pilot has a problem with the seniority number they receive as a new hire at an airline. Date of Hire is golden. It is fundamental to the union principals of “first in, last out”. A national seniority protocol would extend the same union principal; however, it would bind the pilots to the profession rather than to an individual airline. ALPA’s merger and seniority integration process is flawed because it promotes subjective analysis and perceptions rather than the only objective relevant fact. Seniority is a career measurement quantifier used at every airline; whether ALPA represents pilots there or not.

The parochial view has been fostered by the “partnership-myth”, that only pilots believe in. What we have seen is that a pilot’s natural loyalty to a brand or a company has been twisted and used as a tool to manipulate an entire profession. Loyalty between a company and an employee, pilot or otherwise, cannot be a one way street or it might as well be called servitude. Promises made by the “perceived” best managements have been broken without remorse. Pensions earned and paid for over the years have been defaulted on or threatened by every Legacy management under the guise of “saving” the company. Company loyalty is servitude in the airline industry. A national seniority protocol is our recognition of this fact and implementation would immediately change the environment.

A national seniority protocol would eliminate the fear and uncertainty fostered by any management that announced its intention to merge with another. Objectively defining a pilot’s seniority position within the profession would suddenly liberate pilots from the destructive and divisive issues that arise out of ALPA merger policy. Mergers are business to business transactions that are consummated for corporate benefit, not union benefit. Mergers are presumed to promote strength and growth of the Newco. ALPA’s attention in merger situations, with a National Seniority Protocol as policy, could be focused on job protection and capitalizing on expected synergistic gains coming out of the merge. Issues involving the integration of operations would by necessity be restricted by fences that would be contingent primarily on training and safety.

Seniority, owned by the pilot, would allow bidding for vacancies that occurred at the Newco as they came open. The two companies would no longer have two separate lists; they would each have pilots from one National Seniority List. The process of exercising the rights associated with that seniority would not bump a junior pilot out of a position he held prior to the merge.

What if a company refuses to negotiate a contract with this provision?

There can be no negotiation with any entity outside of ALPA about our union’s right to implement this seniority protocol. If ALPA decides to implement this policy it will simply be declared, explained to all appropriate parties and executed; but, it will be ALPA policy and will be enforced from that day forward.

No new pilot contract will be negotiated or signed without this provision. There can be no negotiation or quid pro quo for the inclusion of this provision in any ALPA contract. The importance of the approximately 36 amendable contracts should be clear.

Individual company managements will chafe at first because they will have lost the control that they are so used to. They will argue that this will cost them huge amounts of money to absorb the longevity of pilots from a failed carrier. The ATA and all air carriers have benefited by pilots losing their seniority because of failures for over 77 years; it is our turn now! They will raise every barrier possible to thwart the policy and if ALPA has resolve, they will fail.

Normal RLA rules and timelines will ultimately lead to the ability to implement self-help on each property. It should be anticipated that pilots are likely to be forced to strike over this issue. Appropriate assurances of mutual support and strike benefits need to be planned for and in place before the first test. Only one test should be necessary to convince the industry that ALPA is resolute.

What is the protocol?

The National Seniority Protocol will be developed by a special committee of pilots that represent each of the carriers in the Group designations of ALPA. Chaired by the President of ALPA, this committee will be tasked with determining a starting point commonly used by all air line pilots in the course of their careers. The National Seniority Protocol Committee (NSPC), or whatever it is called, will determine all other parameters of the protocol.

For simplification, date of hire (DOH) is transparent in terms of when a pilot attains his seniority rights at every carrier under an ALPA contract. Simplification and transparency should be the goal of the committee.

It is important to understand, and critical to the ultimate success of implementation and universal acceptance by all air line pilots, that ALPA’s National Seniority Protocol is inclusionary of all air line pilots regardless of where they were employed when they attained the starting point.

How will pilots exercise their National Seniority?

The protocol will be determined by the committee; however, the purpose of the National Seniority protocol is to secure the career longevity and seniority rights of pilots by enforcing their rights of mobility in the event of furlough or the failure of the carrier that they are employed by.

The principal of first hired, last fired does not equate to “carrier shopping”. It is envisioned that the loss of employment at one carrier via furlough or cessation of operation is what would trigger a pilot’s right to exercise his seniority at another carrier which was advertising a vacancy.

For example; if carrier X declared bankruptcy it might immediately announce pilot furloughs. Those furloughed, under the protocol, would be eligible to exercise their seniority at any of the carriers who had posted vacancies. In the same example, an entire company may go out of business. All pilots would then be eligible to exercise their seniority for posted vacancies at another carrier. The contractual provision at the active carriers would allow and enforce the rights of ALPA pilots who had lost their job, due to furlough or cessation of operations, to fill the vacancies and retain their longevity and seniority rights at any ALPA carrier who had vacancies. A uniform method of posting vacancies will need to be developed.

The other carrier or carriers that enter into markets or increase flying in those markets vacated by the defunct carrier will benefit by some level of growth and those vacancies generated could be filled by the pilots who exercised their rights. If there are no vacancies to fill the pilots who are out of work will not be entitled to bump any active pilot. No active pilot can ever lose his job or be displaced by another pilot exercising his seniority.

The qualifications that a pilot earns over the course of a career do not disappear with the failure of a company. Likewise, the seniority benefits a pilot is entitled to are based on his entry point into the profession and the underlying union principal of first in, last out.

Cabbotage: The 30 Year Threat

ALPA has been fighting the stated intention of many to institute Cabbotage in this country for at least the last 30 years. The threat is constantly with us, the proponents are relentless and the globalization craze driven by one world economists seems to be advancing at a steady pace. If ALPA loses the good fight to protect American jobs, pilot jobs; then there will be mitigations developed and made a part of the outcome.

ALPA’s political strength will, as always, determine if we can legislatively demand that our proposed national seniority list be the list of pilots whose jobs are protected under any Cabbotage policy adopted by the US Government.

The US is the aviation capital of the world. Ivory tower theorists would have us all believe that with the “open skies” would come more profits and better service for the public. Those arguments aside, ALPA‘s rightful concern will be with protecting the pilot jobs we have and there could be a time when that protection comes down to the pilots on our national seniority list.

 

[Nevets]

What Will Follow?

Rates of pay, work rules, scope and all of the rest will ultimately have commonality or single language because ALPA will have the clout to make that happen and because it is in the best interest of all parties. That will also establish a fair and non-decaying scale similar to the speed, weight and mileage formula that was arrived at in “decision 83” that served pilots so well, for so long.

ALPA has never been greedy and with the security derived from the national seniority list, negotiation tactics and goals will evolve evenly across the industry based on true production and efficiency. The crew costs will ultimately become fixed at all carriers based on the different aircraft types used and that will provide stability to each airlines bottom line. Airline managements will be forced to compete using good business practices and quality of service levels that only motivated, happy and secure employees can deliver with consistency.

The recent oil price crisis has proved that ticket prices can be raised and sustained to meet verifiable expense. The goal of ALPA to “fix” the cost of pilots within the industry will be met because of the National Seniority Protocol.

A national seniority list built using the protocols described earlier will change the way the aviation transportation industry is run. Animosity between management and labor will drop off sharply after the initial battle and that will be reflected all the way to the bottom line; Wall Street will love the results. Pilots will once again have fun going to work; and, the control of our profession will once again be in our hands.

 

[GeekMaster]

For example; if carrier X declared bankruptcy it might immediately announce pilot furloughs. Those furloughed, under the protocol, would be eligible to exercise their seniority at any of the carriers who had posted vacancies. In the same example, an entire company may go out of business. All pilots would then be eligible to exercise their seniority for posted vacancies at another carrier. The contractual provision at the active carriers would allow and enforce the rights of ALPA pilots who had lost their job, due to furlough or cessation of operations, to fill the vacancies and retain their longevity and seniority rights at any ALPA carrier who had vacancies. A uniform method of posting vacancies will need to be developed.

This is where Airline managements would balk. For ALPA to try and force artificially high priced labor (aka pre-seniored pilots) down their throats would put them in an uproar. Seniority they don't care about and would even embrace. (read my previous explanations) Longevity just ain't gonna happen.

Frankly, NO NMB WOULD EVER RELEASE A PILOT GROUP TO STRIKE WITH THAT ISSUE ON THE TABLE !!!!! It's hard enough to get released to strike simply fighting for regular issues. Ask the ASA Pilots. The idea of MULTIPLE ALPA AIRLINES going on strike at once will instantly draw government intervention as well. As long as the airlines stand together on not giving longevity to newhires from other airlines....it's not going to happen and there is nothing ALPA can do about it.

 

[Poahi]

By the way, let's look at that statement. Currently, with my credit hours, I make the same wage as a UAL F/O with the same seniority.

That UAL FO at your airline would be making first year pay - ie a pay cut. I think someone who was furloughed and expecting to stay at a regional for a while would want to improve his quality of life and wouldn't be shy about it. Management knows this. And here's another thing. This plan boasts it will give ALPA more bargaining power and will help standardize work rules, just what management wants, right?

Ultimately what this boils down to is a trade off: Junior pilots at regionals trade career progression and pay (at the regional level) for a chance at a slot at a major airline if that's what they want to do. They would leap frog the non-ALPA pilots and enjoy some degree of furlough protection.

The major pilots would be somewhat insulated from a loss of earnings from the demise of their carrier. They enjoy earnings protection but risk a super senior regional pilot blocking their career progression.

 

[GeekMaster]

That UAL FO at your airline would be making first year pay - ie a pay cut. I think someone who was furloughed and expecting to stay at a regional for a while would want to improve his quality of life and wouldn't be shy about it. Management knows this. And here's another thing. This plan boasts it will give ALPA more bargaining power and will help standardize work rules, just what management wants, right?

Ultimately what this boils down to is a trade off: Junior pilots at regionals trade career progression and pay (at the regional level) for a chance at a slot at a major airline if that's what they want to do. They would leap frog the non-ALPA pilots and enjoy some degree of furlough protection.

The major pilots would be somewhat insulated from a loss of earnings from the demise of their carrier. They enjoy earnings protection but risk a super senior regional pilot blocking their career progression.

Right now QOL at ASA is actually pretty good. Most of us know we have a descent contract....not perfect but good. It's also competitive enough to help with job security....no furloughs yet. Our union is pretty solid. We really wouldn't benefit from having the furloughed major pilots come on board.

On the otherhand, any national seniority list that uses a "weighted" formula to award current regional pilots vs. major airline pilots a seniority number would probably be detrimental to the current regional pilot's QOL. (that's an understatement) You've already acknowledged the trade-off so let's expand on that once again.

Current captains at regionals "could" (depending on seniority) find themselves having to bid very junior lines if UAL went bellyup and influxed those mega-senior captains into the regional system. In addition, as openings became available at other majors in the future, the regional captains would be harmed by those same UAL guys that put them back on "junk trips".

F/O's currently with a regional would suddenly see their upgrade potential as zero. Therefore NEVER being able to qualify for that dream job. So instead, they will look to a carrier such as Skywest.

Anykind of a "weighted" system is a raw deal for current regional pilots from top to bottom. It may sound good at first to some who think they won't have to "interview and compete" for those dream jobs, but a weighted system will totally be at the regional pilot's expense.

UAL isn't just trying to look after the "good of all ALPA pilots", they're trying to write their Last Will and Testament.

 

[PCL_128]

Most regional pilots aren't lifer losers who want to spend the rest of their careers working for an outsourced lift provider. Most regional pilots want to move on to the majors, and this would make that a hell of a lot easier. This would be the best interests of the overwhelming majority of regional pilots.