National Seniority Protocol

[lookin4better]

This BIFR paragraph will surely be left on the cutting room floor. In order for this to pass any vote their will have to be some reciprocity by the other Unions. What do you think the odds are of the APA, NPA, or non-union shops recognizing ALPA seniority?

also agree with you....its ony of my main points..I think the point would be that everyone becomes ALPA based on benchmarks....hence ALPA wins with more members also ( I am sure this is figured somewhere) ......

also....say Delta MEC ( or any other alpa legacy carrier) and pilots dont like this or whatever agreement .....they simply remove ALPA as their union , and form their own union , ala APA and no one goes to DAL based on this list.....also a distinct possibility.

 

[JoeMerchant]

BRAVO!.....ALPA is starting to get the message.....Don't stop the pressure....IT IS WORKING.....

We must support this....

Rez....What do you think?

 

[DoinTime]

Those unions wont but when one of their members accepts a job at an ALPA carrier they will accept the ALPA policies as part of their condition of employment. Notice that the resolution also calls for this to be included in all future contracts.

So its not so much that any other union recognize the seniority. ALPA will include their pilots in this seniority protocol which they could decide to be a part of if they choose to work for an ALPA carrier.

I understand that the proposal does not include a provision for reciprocity but reciprocity will be needed for it to pass. Why would alpa pilots agree to accept outside pilots in with seniority when those other associations do not recognize the same provisions? That is just stupid.

If the UAL MEC is hung up on this part then the whole thing will surely fail.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I understand that the proposal does not include a provision for reciprocity but reciprocity will be needed for it to pass. Why would alpa pilots agree to accept outside pilots in with seniority when those other associations do not recognize the same provisions? That is just stupid.

If the UAL MEC is hung up on this part then the whole thing will surely fail.

What if you don't include non-ALPA pilots?.....Want to bet everyone else will become ALPA pretty quick.....They will be knocking down the door......

 

[DoinTime]

What if you don't include non-ALPA pilots?.....Want to bet everyone else will become ALPA pretty quick.....They will be knocking down the door......

This is twice in the same year I have agreed with Joe.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is twice in the same year I have agreed with Joe.

:beer:
We can agree more.....Just requires a real union that pulls in the same direction....We don't have that right now....

If this pushes forward I will become the biggest ALPA cheerleader on here.....More than PCL_128 and Rez combined.....Does ALPA have it in them....That is the question......

What was the other thing you agreed with me on?

 

[Way2Broke]

Very much for this! It's about 30 years over due.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Very much for this! It's about 30 years over due.

AGREED......ALPA cheerleaders and sceptics....Time to unite and support this.....

Those of you who question ALPA need to get behind this and make your voice heard....Time to put up or shut up!

 

[Nevets]

I understand that the proposal does not include a provision for reciprocity but reciprocity will be needed for it to pass. Why would alpa pilots agree to accept outside pilots in with seniority when those other associations do not recognize the same provisions? That is just stupid.

If the UAL MEC is hung up on this part then the whole thing will surely fail.

Then contact your MEC chairman and tell him how you feel.

 

[Poahi]

What if you don't include non-ALPA pilots?.....Want to bet everyone else will become ALPA pretty quick.....They will be knocking down the door......

Are you sure about that? Something tells me that SWAPA won't be breaking down ALPA's door anytime soon.... Why would someone at SWA vote to surrender his relative seniority to someone who hops over from a near bankrupt legacy carrier?

 

[sinkrate]

Financial analysts are widely speculating either USAir or United will be the first carrier to liquidate. Could that possibly be the reason for the 2009 deadline in the resolution? Are the UAL pilots trying to make a seniority grab before they might end up on the street? The concept of one seniority list is very popular. I find the timing of this resolution suspicious and possibly self serving though. If this proposal comes to fruition and UAL liquidates it will be years before a major carrier hires 'from the street'. Depending on the final form it could also slow down career progression at the remaining carriers.

 

[Dan Roman]

Are you sure about that? Something tells me that SWAPA won't be breaking down ALPA's door anytime soon.... Why would someone at SWA vote to surrender his relative seniority to someone who hops over from a near bankrupt legacy carrier?

In addition, I could see carriers like Alaska and Hawaiian getting OUT of ALPA. Why? For the simple reason that with domicles like SEA and HNL, in the event of UAL's liquidation and putting 9000 pilots out there, I'm sure you could find more than a 1000 that would want to slide over into senior positions at those carriers. They would effectivly just take over the seniority list at the expense of the current pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

I think this is a wonderful idea and long overdue, but because of the many obstacles, I doubt it will become a reality. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Nevets]

Financial analysts are widely speculating either USAir or United will be the first carrier to liquidate. Could that possibly be the reason for the 2009 deadline in the resolution? Are the UAL pilots trying to make a seniority grab before they might end up on the street? The concept of one seniority list is very popular. I find the timing of this resolution suspicious and possibly self serving though. If this proposal comes to fruition and UAL liquidates it will be years before a major carrier hires 'from the street'. Depending on the final form it could also slow down career progression at the remaining carriers.

And this is why it was probably proposed countless other times in the past. There will never be a perfect time to implement this. If it isn't done now the next airline in trouble will probably propose it. There is always some airline on the brink so if its going to be done, there is no better time than now.

 

[noperf]

The next airline in trouble will not be asking for this. They'll be begging for relief from foreign ownership rules. It'll be interesting to watch ALPA National's convoluted machinations to justify foreign control. I wonder what happens when an International Seniority List protocol in proposed by IFALPA?

 

[Poahi]

I think most here are missing the point of this interest in a national seniority list. As I understand it, one idea is if your carrier tanks and you have seniority, you wouldn't have to start at the bottom.

Your seniority is portable and it stabilizes your earnings without being penalized with the financial risk associated with the inherent instability of the airline industry.

The problem is that for those who pursue airlines for more specific reasons, i.e. stability, location, type of equipment, etc.... who earned their seniority 'the hard way'; they are penalized by someone who took what ever job they could and then just slid their seniority over to another carrier blocking career progression.

To me, a better way to deal with this problem is not to slam the lid on someone's seniority elsewhere, but to have some type of insurance against the financial uncertainty of the carrier you work for. Premiums at SWA would be near zero and premiums at UAL would be huge. The payout should be based on some period of 'pay protection' so that you could get back on your previous earnings track (or something close to it) at your old carrier. ALPA should have the ability to get a big enough group to underwrite something like this. I understand, however, with many on the brink on bankruptcy this might not be the best time, but it should be a long term goal. Kinda like unemployment insurance for the airlines.

 

[Dan Roman]

Nevets,
You appear in favor of this but I take it you fly for a regional. As I see it, if UAL craters (which is what this is all about) you would be ineligable for a mainline job for the foreseable future, no point in even applying for a job anywere else untill all of UAL's ex pilots have a job.

 

[SLUF4]

What would happen in a furlough situation? Say my airline is doing badly and furloughs and I want to go over to a properly staffed airline with no open positions. Would the properly staffed airline then have to furlough someone to make room for me to come over? Maybe I'm over-thinking this.

 

[Poahi]

Nevets,
You appear in favor of this but I take it you fly for a regional. As I see it, if UAL craters (which is what this is all about) you would be ineligable for a mainline job for the foreseable future, no point in even applying for a job anywere else untill all of UAL's ex pilots have a job.

It gets worse than that. FO's at the regionals won't be able to upgrade and get their domicile because they would be blocked. And the captains would be subject to greater risk of downgrading or being awarded the domicile of their choice if there is any hickup in staffing. It's close to a nationwide flowback, just without the furloughs - at least initially.

In a game of musical chairs, someone is always left standing.

 

[Poahi]

No one has mentioned how this is going to be sold to the ALPA carriers.... What's the incentive for the airlines to agree to this?