National Seniority Protocol

[GeekMaster]

Every other airline would have to do the same, eliminating any competitive problems. All airlines would be stuck with the same system. Yes, DAL would be paying 12 year wages to all new hires, but so would CAL, ALA, etc...

Advantage, double set point- AA, SWA, Airtran

 

[PCL_128]

Advantage, double set point- AA, SWA, Airtran

Agreed, and that's where the true problem is with this whole thing. Without a true national union, this just won't work well. If we had all pilots in this country under the ALPA banner, then this might be able to work, but with a bunch of independent unions, ALPA's pissing into the wind. Priority one should be organizing other pilot groups and merging them into ALPA. An NSL probably won't work until that takes place.

 

[GeekMaster]

Agreed, and that's where the true problem is with this whole thing. Without a true national union, this just won't work well. If we had all pilots in this country under the ALPA banner, then this might be able to work, but with a bunch of independent unions, ALPA's pissing into the wind. Priority one should be organizing other pilot groups and merging them into ALPA. An NSL probably won't work until that takes place.

And I agree that with this attempt, ALPA would be pissing in the wind. But, I also believe that nothing would get the RLA changed by Congress faster than a pilot group with unchecked power demanding a nationwide standard wage thereby eliminating a free market economy.

I also believe that the majors won't even be able to agree amongst THEMSELVES on this resolution. Afterall, it's not ASA or PCL's job the United boys want. It's all future positions at DAL, CAL, FEDex, etc. Let's see'em sell it to THOSE first officers and junior captains.

 

[PCL_128]

But, I also believe that nothing would get the RLA changed by Congress faster than a pilot group with unchecked power demanding a nationwide standard wage thereby eliminating a free market economy.

Are you aware that many unions already have such a system? Nothing is unusual about such an idea. We're the unusual ones within the labor community with our non-transportable seniority and longevity.

 

[Jar Jar]

We need an organized airline pilot labor CARTEL. Call it OAPL.

Set it up in Mexico..

 

[JoeMerchant]

Are you aware that many unions already have such a system? Nothing is unusual about such an idea. We're the unusual ones within the labor community with our non-transportable seniority and longevity.

......no? .....really? I've been saying that for years.....This is only coming up now because a legacy group is about to lose their jobs and wants to make a lateral move.....

 

[PCL_128]

......no? .....really? I've been saying that for years.....This is only coming up now because a legacy group is about to lose their jobs and wants to make a lateral move.....

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. But that doesn't change the fact that this is an important step to take. The motivations of the proposing pilot group aren't relevant.

 

[GeekMaster]

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. But that doesn't change the fact that this is an important step to take. The motivations of the proposing pilot group aren't relevant.

UHHHH YES THEY ARE!!!! Any job protection they gain at my expense or any other pilot at ASA is totally unacceptable. They want this thing to have ANY CHANCE AT ALL? Take out the "benchmark" clause and change the representation to "each airline has one rep" and no Prater as a tiebreaker.

 

[PCL_128]

UHHHH YES THEY ARE!!!! Any job protection they gain at my expense or any other pilot at ASA is totally unacceptable. They want this thing to have ANY CHANCE AT ALL? Take out the "benchmark" clause and change the representation to "each airline has one rep" and no Prater as a tiebreaker.

Why are the motivations of the authoring pilot group important? They don't get write the final resolution, remember? All that matters is how the final resolution ends up. Until that point, it is ridiculous for anyone to be against the general concept. You can have issues with certain language in the draft resolution, but that resolution is in no way binding on anyone. Keep that in mind before you blow your top.

 

[McNasty]

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

Mainline pilots screwed the profesional pilot career already when they scoped themselves out of flying small planes. They were greedy and short sighted and indirectly created this whole RJ monster that they constantly complain about. That's what happens when arrogant pilots think they are smarter than management.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL is correct.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the EB pass a modified version of this resolution, which would change some of the language that we're arguing about here.

United doing this now is kinda dumb. While I agree with the concept, ALPA needs to start at the bottom and work it's way up. ALPA will fragment like a lit grenade if they tried to force it from the top down.

PCL wrote once that Duane Woerth "gets it." Years later I find this tidbit while researching my position on a NSL. It is relevant, since this was part of Woerth's presentation to the United group in the last BOD. PCL, you were correct.

Captain Woerth said:

(Quote) "A dynamic that our predecessors did not have to contend with was airline brand management. Regulation essentially prevented it by route authority limitations.

Today, airline brands for both passenger and all-cargo operations have developed elaborate strategies to get pilots who work for separate companies with separate contracts and seniority lists to compete for work within the brand on a "lowest-bid" basis. Of all the challenges vexing us in the first years of the 21st Century, this may be the greatest.

The Bilateral Scope Impact Committee's report that went to the Executive Board was embraced and acclaimed for good reason. It cut to the heart of the matter and succinctly stated the obvious: job security and career progression opportunities are two sides of the same coin. Against an airline brand management strategy, only a counter strategy by the pilots within the brand to deal with both issues together has any chance of succeeding.

If we want to stop erosion of ALPA pay standards, we must deal with job security and career progression as a single issue. A combination of fences and bridges will be required. If we accept the status quo, the race to the bottom will continue.

If we stop pointing fingers and start joining hands, some group of pilots within some brand will be the first to develop a prototype model that stops the bleeding. It is said that "necessity" is the mother of invention. With all the pain, with all the bloodshed within our ranks, we should have all the "necessity" we need to invent something new to stop the whipsawing.

To steal a line from Bob Chimenti, chairman of the FedEx Negotiating Committee, 'For a collective bargaining breakthrough of this magnitude, line pilots will erect 10-foot tall statues of the negotiators who will deliver it.' He could be right - it's that important."(Unquote)

If United wants to show us the way, they need to begin with:

Chautauqua Airlines, Colgan Air, GoJet Airlines, Mesa Airlines,Shuttle America,SkyWest Airlines,and Trans States Airlines

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, you were correct.

You should say that more often, Fins.

 

[Wacko]

looked on the alpa web site and couldn't find this..... where did you guys find this?

 

[milky]

You guys are ridiculous. What airline would ever approve such a stupid, hand-tying policy? If I ran an airline, I would never let some outside group decide who I can hire and how much I have to pay them.

Have you ever noticed, the happiest pilots in this industry seem to be the ones that work for companies with the least unionized pilot groups? Maybe if you tried to figure out ways to make yourself an asset to your companies and stop taking jobs at places that have work rules/policies that you cannot stomach, you would have a career you can enjoy.
This bed of non-portable seniority is the bed this industry made a long time ago. The only way that it will change is if each company (pilots and management) decide they don't want to protect current pilots over new hires. That will never happen because nobody wants to allow other people to be hired ahead of them at a company they already work.

Bottom line, if I ran an airline, I would never agree to any sort of rules like these. Go ahead and try. I can guarantee you that there will be a flood of people ready to step in and take your job when you try to strike as an industry to 'enforce' these new work rules.

 

[PCL_128]

Have you ever noticed, the happiest pilots in this industry seem to be the ones that work for companies with the least unionized pilot groups?

Stick to your military flying, because you don't have a clue about the airline world. The happiest pilots in the industry are the SWA pilots, and SWA is the most heavily unionized airline in the country. Next in line? the FedEx and UPS pilots, both unionized. Next? Probably Delta. Again, unionized. Seeing a trend here?

 

[milky]

Stick to your military flying, because you don't have a clue about the airline world. The happiest pilots in the industry are the SWA pilots, and SWA is the most heavily unionized airline in the country. Next in line? the FedEx and UPS pilots, both unionized. Next? Probably Delta. Again, unionized. Seeing a trend here?

All I know is that those guys have their unions, but they are not super militant national airline union guys. Guys at SWA seem to actually care how their company does. When the company needs somebody to fly, they fly. They know that their success relies heavily on the success of the company.

By the way, not to start a military against civilian fight, but I love when you tell military guys to stay away. Don't you just wish SWA, FedEx, and UPS's hiring department would tell us to stay away?

 

[PCL_128]

All I know is that those guys have their unions, but they are not super militant national airline union guys.

You could say that about SWA, but certainly not about UPS and FDX. The UPS pilots are some of the most militant I've ever met. Those guys are hard-core. The FDX guys were picketing by the hundreds during their contract negotiations. Definitely not a bunch of company yes-men.

 

[Poahi]

One thing is pretty clear to me: If UAL pilots can't get seniority effective retroactively, they will back off the national seniority protocol.

 

[Nevets]

AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
103RD REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008
​

SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

Distribution Approved By:
Delegate Committee Chairman

DELEGATE COMMITTEE RECOMENDATION

WHEREAS the Airline Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhances the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual member's ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot representative by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the President appoint a seven member special committee composed of the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Merger Policy Review Committee, Chairman of the Collective Bargaining Committee and three additional members (one each from Group A, Group B and Group c pilot group, including members familiar with the work of the Fee For Departure Task Force), together with a National Officer, to address the issues presented by this national seniority protocol item, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee coordinate with and consider relevant work of the MPRC, CBC, and FFD Task Force in carrying out its assignment, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee also consider and report with recommendations on the following issues in carrying out its assignment:

1. Proposed method for ALPA governing body approval of a national seniority protocol including a prior comprehensive membership communication program.

2. Methods for implementation of a national seniority protocol through collective bargaining negotiations, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee report to the Executive Council at its January and April 2009 meetings and to the Executive Board at its May 2009 meeting.

 

[DoinTime]

One thing is pretty clear to me: If UAL pilots can't get seniority effective retroactively, they will back off the national seniority protocol.

They can't back off it. Its out of their hands. The only thing they can do now is vote against it.