National Seniority Protocol

[Rez O. Lewshun]

BRAVO!.....ALPA is starting to get the message.....Don't stop the pressure....IT IS WORKING.....

We must support this....

Rez....What do you think?

I haven't read the entire document..... I will and let it digest then reply later...

however,

at first glance...

If UAL is doing this b/c they feel their ship is sinking and they are looking for another haven, then is it really a good reason?

It seems reactionary.... how about we get back to basics and fundamentals instead of trying new ideas that look like polarization. We need real leadership and REAL followership. Is a new system going to substitute for that?

Before you reply that I am too traditional or stuck in the past.... I am not... as I said I need to review the docs for a few days... again at first glance it seems like it might just cause too much animosity between groups. In addition, how pragmatic is it?


As I said... I'll reply in a few days...


Cautiously optimistic...

 

[belchfire]

It'll end up being based on what reserve squadron you are in...

 

[milky]

Who the hell are you guys to tell a company who they have to hire? We are not socialists. If a company wants to hire a brand new pilot with the FAA minimums for whatever job is being filled, there is nothing that you should be able to do about it. The market will dictate who gets hired by whom.

Right now, there are a ton of dudes willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to make $20,000/year. So, go ahead and try to force the airlines to hire you as a 15 year airline pilot when they have to pay you much more than a new guy. Right now, pilots with a lot of hours are willing to work for not very much money. Until that ends, there will be no reason for an airline to pay more.

 

[PCL_128]

Please stay in the military.

 

[Nevets]

Who the hell are you guys to tell a company who they have to hire? We are not socialists. If a company wants to hire a brand new pilot with the FAA minimums for whatever job is being filled, there is nothing that you should be able to do about it. The market will dictate who gets hired by whom.

Right now, there are a ton of dudes willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to make $20,000/year. So, go ahead and try to force the airlines to hire you as a 15 year airline pilot when they have to pay you much more than a new guy. Right now, pilots with a lot of hours are willing to work for not very much money. Until that ends, there will be no reason for an airline to pay more.

The problem is that this profession isn't the free market as you suggest it is. The fundamental problem is that this is probably one of the only professions where prior experience doesn't matter when it comes to compensation. If you are unfortunate enough to be employed by an airline that goes BK, furloughs, etc, you cannot just market yourself to another airline with your experience and be offered a job with commensurate pay according to that experience. You are just recycled to first year pay and that is exactly how management wants it. Any other job, you can demand a salary commensurate with your experience.

 

[Jetpipeovht]

Who the hell are you guys to tell a company who they have to hire? We are not socialists. If a company wants to hire a brand new pilot with the FAA minimums for whatever job is being filled, there is nothing that you should be able to do about it. The market will dictate who gets hired by whom.

Right now, there are a ton of dudes willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to make $20,000/year. So, go ahead and try to force the airlines to hire you as a 15 year airline pilot when they have to pay you much more than a new guy. Right now, pilots with a lot of hours are willing to work for not very much money. Until that ends, there will be no reason for an airline to pay more.

Yourself included with exception of the debt part.

 

[GeekMaster]

Guys/Gals: there's a big difference between seniority and longevity. Airlines base pilot pay on longevity not seniority. Therefore, this would be an easy sell to regional airline managements. WHY?

Because lets say UAL tanks and all those pilots are now available for employment with their elevated seniority levels. Now let's look at say ASA, Comair, XJT and Pinnacle needing to hire a few hundred pilots over the next couple of years. (or whenever they finally need them....doesn't matter for this demo) They would quickly snap up all those jobless UAL pilots with high seniority numbers.

Those pilots would go to work at all those regionals at longevity pay as YEAR 1.....That's right year 1. THEN....as upgrades at those same airlines become available, those super high seniority number exUAL pilots will get the captain awards. The company will save lots of money because they will actually have year one captains.

This is NOT a good deal for regional pilots on SO MANY LEVELS. We haven't EVEN touched on what those "BENCHMARKS" might be, but I can guarantee one thing; it will have plenty to do with giving a better/higher seniority number to pilots at the majors than for the regional guys.

 

[Poahi]

Therefore, this would be an easy sell to regional airline managements.

GeekMaster,

Back up the bus for a second. There are two things which balance this argument.

For one, if you take a bunch of pilots from UAL and others who are used to having decent pay and work rules and put them in a regional for several years, they are going to educate the group and push for better work rules, pay rates and everything else - and they have a vote. That's going to be expensive - really expensive. I'm not saying an educated pilot group is bad, but I don't think management is going to warm up to it quite so easily.

Most of the regional pilots who have been in the industry for only a few years don't know how much they are being taken advantage of and now you're both educating them and preventing them from getting the PIC time they need to graduate from Hard Times University. They won't be able to pay back the $150,000 they are going to have in loans because they are suck at $22,000 per year and they aren't going to be happy. The regionals bank on attrition to deal with the lack of pay and work rules and you're suggesting they wait it out until UAL starts hiring again? It's not going to work.

Secondly, the regionals are going to have increased costs for more senior FO's at higher pay rates who are blocked from upgrading by these guys. And they are going to be disgruntled because the senior guys have kept them down for many years and have virtually guaranteed them no job at a major for quite some time.

This concept isn't practical and will drive a wedge between the regional and the major airline pilots. And when all is said and done, a new 'ALPA free' regional will start promising fast upgrades and low pay and the 20 somethings will be banging down their door. They will earn far more that way and still have a shot at another carrier. - at least that's how it will be sold to them.

Sounds familiar?

 

[PCL_128]

but I can guarantee one thing; it will have plenty to do with giving a better/higher seniority number to pilots at the majors than for the regional guys.

I would certainly hope so.

 

[GeekMaster]

GeekMaster,

Back up the bus for a second. There are two things which balance this argument.

For one, if you take a bunch of pilots from UAL and others who are used to having decent pay and work rules and put them in a regional for several years, they are going to educate the group and push for better work rules, pay rates and everything else - and they have a vote. That's going to be expensive - really expensive. I'm not saying an educated pilot group is bad, but I don't think management is going to warm up to it quite so easily.

Most of the regional pilots who have been in the industry for only a few years don't know how much they are being taken advantage of and now you're both educating them and preventing them from getting the PIC time they need to graduate from Hard Times University. They won't be able to pay back the $150,000 they are going to have in loans because they are suck at $22,000 per year and they aren't going to be happy. The regionals bank on attrition to deal with the lack of pay and work rules and you're suggesting they wait it out until UAL starts hiring again? It's not going to work.

Secondly, the regionals are going to have increased costs for more senior FO's at higher pay rates who are blocked from upgrading by these guys. And they are going to be disgruntled because the senior guys have kept them down for many years and have virtually guaranteed them no job at a major for quite some time.

This concept isn't practical and will drive a wedge between the regional and the major airline pilots. And when all is said and done, a new 'ALPA free' regional will start promising fast upgrades and low pay and the 20 somethings will be banging down their door. They will earn far more that way and still have a shot at another carrier. - at least that's how it will be sold to them.

Sounds familiar?

I made a choice long ago to stay at a regional for quality of life and allow me to run my side business. Since that time many pilots have come to my airline, logged their time and gone on to their major airline dream job. Good for them. I'm happy for them to acheive their dream. But that wasn't my dream. I can think of NO ARRANGEMENT where those who have come after me can come back to my airline and be senior to me that is acceptable.

I suppose if they counted all part 121 time served equally, they'd be getting closer. Even then I'd have to look. In otherwords if UAL pilot served 6 years at a 121 regional and 2 years at UAL, he'd have 8 years seniority. Unfortunately, I don't see those 6 out of 11 votes coming from the majors agreeing to anything like that with the "benchmark" language.

If ALPA were to jam this down the regional carriers throats in such a way that penalizes the regional pilots, you can pretty much guarantee most of them will secede.