National Seniority Protocol

[PCL_128]

AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
103RD REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008
​

SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

Distribution Approved By:
Delegate Committee Chairman

DELEGATE COMMITTEE RECOMENDATION

WHEREAS the Airline Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhances the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual member's ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot representative by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the President appoint a seven member special committee composed of the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Merger Policy Review Committee, Chairman of the Collective Bargaining Committee and three additional members (one each from Group A, Group B and Group c pilot group, including members familiar with the work of the Fee For Departure Task Force), together with a National Officer, to address the issues presented by this national seniority protocol item, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee coordinate with and consider relevant work of the MPRC, CBC, and FFD Task Force in carrying out its assignment, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee also consider and report with recommendations on the following issues in carrying out its assignment:

1. Proposed method for ALPA governing body approval of a national seniority protocol including a prior comprehensive membership communication program.

2. Methods for implementation of a national seniority protocol through collective bargaining negotiations, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee report to the Executive Council at its January and April 2009 meetings and to the Executive Board at its May 2009 meeting.

A much better document, in my opinion, and a much fairer committee composition. Well done, EB.

 

[acpilot]

I've been following this thread and the idea of a national senority list seems to be less and less appealing. Maybe it's my 135 mentality, but why should a pilot (you, for example) be punished because some other airline furloughs pilots senior to you. That "senior" pilot, mind you, is only is only senior because somebody tells you he's senior...it doesn't sit well with me. It almost seems like a socialized system.

Maybe I'm missing a fundamental part of the national list, and if I am, please PM me and my misunderstanding. I'd like to understand how this would be a good idea.

 

[milky]

If you guys could pull this off and the airlines somehow signed off on it, it would be great for America. You will basically have turned all your airlines into one massive airline that will be much easier for new up and coming airlines to compete with. Real competition will come in and hopefully wipe out all of the old dinosaurs that are sitting around. Southwest will probably become a national since it won't have to put up with your labor BS that you will be putting on your airlines. I will definitely try to invest in a new airline since you guys will have tied the hands of your airlines so much that it will be easy to undercut them.

Sadly, the airlines would never accept such lunacy as their labor telling them who they have to hire. But, it would be nice to see some real change in the industry.

Not since the UAW have I seen a group of people so intent on organizing themselves out of jobs. But, I'm sure it's just the evil management in Detroit that is forcing Americans to not buy their cars just to screw the auto workers just like the evil management in the airlines is trying to screw all of its pilots every day.

 

[flyboyike]

This is NOT a good deal for regional pilots on SO MANY LEVELS. We haven't EVEN touched on what those "BENCHMARKS" might be, but I can guarantee one thing; it will have plenty to do with giving a better/higher seniority number to pilots at the majors than for the regional guys.

I think part of this is that at the end of the day ALPA really isn't interested in representing the regional pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

I think part of this is that at the end of the day ALPA really isn't interested in representing the regional pilots.

And on what do you base this nonsense? Ever been an elected rep? Ever worked with the national officers? Ever been to a BOD meeting? Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[sstearns2]

I never really seriously concidered the possibility of UAL liquidating until I read this proposal. UALPA must be pretty worried to try and push something like this through.

First age 65 and now this. I didn't love flying these silly things so much.....

Scott

 

[Raskal]

If you guys could pull this off and the airlines somehow signed off on it, it would be great for America. You will basically have turned all your airlines into one massive airline that will be much easier for new up and coming airlines to compete with. Real competition will come in and hopefully wipe out all of the old dinosaurs that are sitting around. Southwest will probably become a national since it won't have to put up with your labor BS that you will be putting on your airlines. I will definitely try to invest in a new airline since you guys will have tied the hands of your airlines so much that it will be easy to undercut them.

Sadly, the airlines would never accept such lunacy as their labor telling them who they have to hire. But, it would be nice to see some real change in the industry.

Not since the UAW have I seen a group of people so intent on organizing themselves out of jobs. But, I'm sure it's just the evil management in Detroit that is forcing Americans to not buy their cars just to screw the auto workers just like the evil management in the airlines is trying to screw all of its pilots every day.

I agree that the UAW is almost lunatic in their ability to screw themselves, living in Detroit I've witnessed that far more than most.

That said, I do agree with a national seniority list in principal, but I have no faith in ALPA's ability to get it done with any real fairness. The problem, as I see it, is that seniority-based systems are great if you have companies that will be around as long as your career. That used to be the business-employee model not so long ago, as were pensions and employer/employee loyalty. Those days are gone, as are many former "career" airlines.

The seniority system as it is now simply does not work for both the airlines and the pilots in today's environment. It forces pilots with valuable experience out of the 121 side rather than starting at the bottom of another airline-which is completely idiotic.

In all honesty, I hope that some sort of national senority list will eventually result in a pilot being able to go to another airline using his/her experience level to negotiate pay rather than this stone-age system.

Seniority being the most important factor in an airline pilot's career is ridiculous. It is about time our industry caught up with the rest of the planet.

 

[AvroJockey]

Maybe I'm missing a fundamental part of the national list, and if I am, please PM me and my misunderstanding. I'd like to understand how this would be a good idea.

Most of people on this thread are missing the fundamental part of a national seniority list...economics and fear!

A nationwide seniority list turns pilot labor into a commodity, and every carrier will have to pay the same for those pilots regardless of where they work. This is hugh, because every airline will have the same pilot labor expense as the other. When times get tuff, a carrier's management can't come to the highest paid labor group (pilots) and ask them take it in the a$$ because no single carrier will have a cost advantage...it levels the playing field.

Ask yourself this question...Why have the airlines been hurting so? Obviously the price of fuel and oil is the answer. OIL IS A COMMODITY!!!! Whatever the price, airlines have to pay and all airlines pay the same!!! I'll ask you another question...What if pilot labor was a commodity? Do you ever see airline execs petitioning OPEC to lower the cost of oil??? Nope! If there's a nationwide seniority list and all airline pilots are paid similarly (traditionally based on aircraft size), then airline execs will stop coming to the pilots looking for handouts!!! ALPA will have effectively formed a pilot labor cartel, and we all know how well a cartel has worked for OPEC.

Lastly, but less important, is the removing the fear element. When times are tuff, pilots always give in to management because they don't want to loose their job and their seniority and start all over again. Management uses this fear against us. Imagine, if you will, management coming to you and saying "We need a 40% pay cut or you'll lose your job!" Is this not what they've been doing for the last 7 years? We've easily replied, "Yes Sr...May I have another 40%!" because we know a 40% pay cut is better than a 100% pay cut!!!

But let's say we had the option to keep senoirity and longevity if we lost our job. Management asks you for a 40% pay cut, what are you going to say? My answer would simply be a HE11 NO!

So anyway...even though I'm no longer an ALPA pilot I am and have always been a very strong advocate of nationwide seniority. It will be painful at first, but at the end of the day it's a win-win scenario. It will be like your morning jog...you really don't want to go, and would rather stay in bed, but once you get up and get going it turns out to be very satisfying and rewarding.

Pilot's, overall, are intelligent individuals, but it just baffles me that there's so much ignorance concerning this subject.

 

[Superpilot92]

What stops airline A from not hiring a pilot from airline B because he has been around longer and will cost more than just hiring some newb straight out of flightschool? Also not every airline is alpa so will non-alpa pilots get hired first because they have no longevity elsewhere to carry over? Fill me in

 

[acpilot]

Yeah, but who would it include? 135? 91? How do you determine senority? Commercial checkride? ATP? PIC Type? First 61/141 job? First job outside of 61/141? What about professional CFI's? These seem to be the questions that nobody wants to address and nobody can answer. Now, should it include ALL professional pilots and not just 121ies, then it becomes fair and easier to support. Otherwise, it seems as if 121 pilots are trying to demand more than they're worth. Sorry, but isn't the purpose of this movement to artificially inflate the price of pilot labor? On the other hand it would be great to see you RJ pilots say, "F**K YOU, PAY ME!" to management.

What happens when the airlines refuse to hire pilots from SuperUnion? There will still be pilots who see the value in NOT being part of this union. Then SuperUnion will be as usless as any current organization.

Can anyone else see where I'm coming from or am I alone on this?

 

[C180drvr]

Simply the BEST idea to come from ALPA since deregulation and the best solution to industry problems.

Pilots seem to be the only group where we match the lowest paid - the norm is for management to exploit these differences. Oil had an extraordinary rise over the past year, but the airlines paid the cost. Nationalization would result in another commodity (pilots) and end this exploitation of seeking cuts against other pilots and using seniority as a deterrent from changing carriers. We're unique in our inability to move to highest bidder, like any other profession.

The pilot group also seems to measure 'success' by other pilot groups - stupid, because if the industry is in the toilet, so is the benchmark. If I make $2 more an hour than the next pilot group, but less than the Costco greeter, there's a problem. We need to compare to other professions and realize what a joke the industry and career outlook has become.

The national list would also hedge risk in the industry - the fact I can go to work at a strong company and have absolutely ZERO expectation at retirement and/or to see a pension is ridiculous and unique to our industry. We're not paid any premium for this uncertainty risk factor.

Hopefully pilots will realize some short term restructuring has the potential to realize much greater long term returns. We need to stop subsidizing cheap tickets for the world and invest in the long term.

 

[AvroJockey]

What stops airline A from not hiring a pilot from airline B because he has been around longer and will cost more than just hiring some newb straight out of flightschool? Also not every airline is alpa so will non-alpa pilots get hired first because they have no longevity elsewhere to carry over? Fill me in

More than likely age discrimination laws will stop this from happening. It won't completely because seniority doesn't exactly old, but most of the time it does.

You're second point is something that needs to be hashed out before implementing nationwide seniority , however, a non-alpa carrier could become ALPA. these are the issues that ALPA leaders deal with when something big like this happens. this is why you vote for said leaders.

For all the naysayers out there, do you want to continue down the same road your union is going? It will only yield the same fruit. This should have been done years ago.

Odds are this will have no effect on me because I start at NetJets monday, but I always thought this was a great idea. The simple fact is that professional organizations like the American Medical Association and the American Dental Association have more power over their labor force than APLA does. It it comes down to economics. Didn't you guys take microeconomics in college?

BTW...this is the other thing ALPA should be doing: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=48321

 

[Poahi]

The simple fact is that professional organizations like the American Medical Association and the American Dental Association have more power over their labor force than APLA does. It it comes down to economics. Didn't you guys take microeconomics in college?
BTW...this is the other thing ALPA should be doing: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=48321

ALPA doesn't certify airline pilots. ALPA is actually opposed to higher training standards. And with the way the airlines are run these days, for good reason.

A doctor is an individual who offers a service directly from himself to the patient (or at least he has that capability). A pilot must be an employee of an airline. As a pilot, you can't distinguish yourself and you certianly can't offer your services to the public.

Think about it: The next time you want to fly to Europe, do you ask other travelers who flew their flight? "Yeah, I went to Spain last year and Captain xxx flew me. He did a great job, had great plane side manner and didn't leave a scar. And he took my insurance."

It isn't going to happen.

This proposal is so bad, I'd bet several regionals will decertify ALPA if it passes.

I'll say it again, until ALPA gets control of the training and certification process, it is peeing in to the wind.

 

[DoinTime]

Yeah, but who would it include? 135? 91? How do you determine senority? Commercial checkride? ATP? PIC Type? First 61/141 job? First job outside of 61/141? What about professional CFI's? These seem to be the questions that nobody wants to address and nobody can answer. Now, should it include ALL professional pilots and not just 121ies, then it becomes fair and easier to support. Otherwise, it seems as if 121 pilots are trying to demand more than they're worth. Sorry, but isn't the purpose of this movement to artificially inflate the price of pilot labor? On the other hand it would be great to see you RJ pilots say, "F**K YOU, PAY ME!" to management.

What happens when the airlines refuse to hire pilots from SuperUnion? There will still be pilots who see the value in NOT being part of this union. Then SuperUnion will be as usless as any current organization.

Can anyone else see where I'm coming from or am I alone on this?

Considering that this is solely an ALPA initiative you can expect anyone that isn't ALPA to not be considered. That being the case I'm sure ALPA would sign up anyone that was interested joining the collective instead of risking it alone out in an independent union or non-union shop. Support from anyone outside ALPA is irrelevant to make this happen.

New positions that the airlines would normally have to hire for would first be made available to anyone on the master seniority list. If nobody bid the position the airline would have to hire a new pilot on to the seniority list. The airline would not have a choice on whether or not to bring in someone from another ALPA carrier.

The purpose of this initiative, as stated earlier, is to stabilize the profession. If this ends up being used as a lever to super inflate pilot wages and benefits it will likely lead to the permanent demise of ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is actually opposed to higher training standards.

This is incorrect.

 

[PCL_128]

Considering that this is solely an ALPA initiative you can expect anyone that isn't ALPA to not be considered. That being the case I'm sure ALPA would sign up anyone that was interested joining the collective instead of risking it alone out in an independent union or non-union shop. Support from anyone outside ALPA is irrelevant to make this happen.

I agree, but you need to be careful about how you set this up to make sure that it doesn't kill further organizing efforts. The UAL resolution included "seniority benchmarks" that would credit non-ALPA and non-union pilots on the national list. If this isn't done, then you'll never organize another non-ALPA group again. Non-ALPA pilots can't be concerned about losing their seniority if they join ALPA. A universal standard needs to be set that would place non-ALPA pilots in the proper place on the list if they decide to join ALPA. You can't just staple them if they join after the list is implemented.

 

[xjhawk]

The talk continues about a National Seniority list. I have given it a lot of thought. A way, not the only way to get this started is to establish a National List for ALPA date of hire, starting with your first ALPA membership. What would this list do for you?

First, you would retain your seniority at your company and your company would retain the rights of hire. You would not lose your position/pay quality of life at your current position because a very senior person at a different airline was hired after you at your company but had a higher National number.

Your national number would first cover such things as:

vacation accural and usage (transfered from one airline to another.

Sick time/personal time, same concept as vacation

And I think the most important, your retirement. ALPA would take the best systems out there, accounting for match percentages and wage rates to transfere your retirement with you to your new job if you should move jobs.

The benefits would be something that all pilots could take advantage of.

 

[Poahi]

The talk continues about a National Seniority list.

That's an understatement. Mesa's got a new approach I've never seen before: Selling seniority.

Mesa is now offering their qualified pilots the option of flying for KunPeng (an airline they are divesting themselves of), under different conditions than those employed directly by KunPeng now or in the future. In exchange for a pay differential, you can keep your seniority and longevity at Mesa and return under cryptic terms after 2 years. The pay differential works out to about $80,000 over the 2 year period.

 

[CEO silly sap]

If you guys could pull this off and the airlines somehow signed off on it, it would be great for America. You will basically have turned all your airlines into one massive airline that will be much easier for new up and coming airlines to compete with. Real competition will come in and hopefully wipe out all of the old dinosaurs that are sitting around. Southwest will probably become a national since it won't have to put up with your labor BS that you will be putting on your airlines. I will definitely try to invest in a new airline since you guys will have tied the hands of your airlines so much that it will be easy to undercut them.

Sadly, the airlines would never accept such lunacy as their labor telling them who they have to hire. But, it would be nice to see some real change in the industry.

Not since the UAW have I seen a group of people so intent on organizing themselves out of jobs. But, I'm sure it's just the evil management in Detroit that is forcing Americans to not buy their cars just to screw the auto workers just like the evil management in the airlines is trying to screw all of its pilots every day.

I remember the UAW signing off on the bonus for managment. I also recall the UAW sitting in on the auto makers business planning sessions. But the biggest error the UAW did was setting the price for the autos. It was so sad to see labor think they could run a business, it should be left up to those with college degrees and mba/s. Maybe someday soon these Unions will know that they need to stick with wrench turning and seat placement. Stay out of the boardroom and away from the budgeting and spreadsheet modifications.

 

[CEO silly sap]

If I could make a small suggestion;

If you are an alpa pilot, then contact your rep and find out how to get this ball moving. Ask them questions, because posting here wont do anything but waste time on this issue.

One last thing, what if alpa did all the training and supplied pilots to the airlines?