National Seniority Protocol

[JoeMerchant]

I'm a hell of a lot more militant than the average ALPA rep. Hell, I'm a hell of a lot more militant than Rez.

Yet you accused my neg. committee of "asking for too much" in '98"....That would make me more militant.....Hmmmm..........

I suspect that ALPA will go above and beyond to make this system fair, if it ever gets off the floor at all. I suspect people like me will be the ones pissed off, not you, Joey.

See the above post by DoinTme.....I should have known better....This will be stacked in the favor of the mainline pilots.....Too much at risk to support it...even if it is a good idea in theory....

 

[GeekMaster]

To say that "regional" pilots will have 5 out of the 11 committee spots is being generous. The resolution has the MEC chairmen of each "B" and "C" group carriers choose their representative to the committee. Currently, "regional" carriers do not have the majority in groups B2 or B4.

What the canadian "C" group has to do with this I don't know as I don't think you could include them in the American National seniority list due to the inability of some and complexity of working across the border.

I think when it boiled down to the committee appointments you would only have 2-3 out of 11 that are representing the interests of the RJ drivers and our unique type of carriers.

All the more reason we are in a position to get sodomized. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Way2Broke]

We can go ahead and re-regulate airlines while we are at it.

Want to see it all get better again? Gov't regulated airlines and a national seniority list are the answers.

 

[GeekMaster]

I just thought of something.....all you ALPA insiders out there..... is ASA's TZ head of one of those B groups? I'm not sure exactly what his position is but I thought it was somewhere along that lines. Isn't he the one that "moved" for the failed resolution to tax 401K contributions?

Just questions...no accusations.

 

[PCL_128]

Too much at risk to support it...even if it is a good idea in theory....

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

 

[GeekMaster]

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

I don't think Joe is basing it on "MIGHT". The language is already there in the resolution; referencing career "benchmarks" when developing the seniority formula and minimal representation on the appointed committee.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

Yes because the risk is too high....It's smart to do a risk/reward analysis.....The risk is too high given the prevailing wisdom...which you agree with....

We couldn't get the Delta MEC to go for a single list on the DAL property back in 2000.....Fins is right....Why not do it on a "brand" basis first? Even then there is the prevailing attitude that a mainline newhire is higher up the food chain than a 25 year regional "lifer"......

You and I have argued about this for years....Your attitude is the prevailing attitude....Mine is the minority...Sorry I don't trust anyone in this "association" to do what is best for me....

It was short lived....but I have withdrawn my support....This "association" is doomed....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think Joe is basing it on "MIGHT". The language is already there in the resolution; referencing career "benchmarks" when developing the seniority formula and minimal representation on the appointed committee.

You are correct GeekMaster...In my excitement that ALPA might actually start acting more like a real union, I initially supported this proposal....However as I read it more closely and listened to others, I have come to the belief that there is too much down side....

 

[DoinTime]

I just thought of something.....all you ALPA insiders out there..... is ASA's TZ head of one of those B groups? I'm not sure exactly what his position is but I thought it was somewhere along that lines. Isn't he the one that "moved" for the failed resolution to tax 401K contributions?

Just questions...no accusations.

I would never call myself an insider but according to the back page of Air Line Pilot, Tom is the Executive Council representative for the B2 group.

You're going to stop supporting a good idea just because you think the mainline guys might try to screw you? Do you even listen to yourself? This is ridiculous. It's a good idea. You should support the idea until you find out that they're actually doing something to screw you. Preemptive anger is absurd.

This is a good idea in principle. The devil is always in the details though. Hopefully, this can worked out to something reasonable for everyone. Reasonable is quiet a ways off from this resolution as written though.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is a good idea in principle. The devil is always in the details though. Hopefully, this can worked out to something reasonable for everyone. Reasonable is quiet a ways off from this resolution as written though.

Who'd a ever thunk I would agree with DoinTime.....The "benchmarks" and seniority method have to be spelled out in advance for me to support it.....Take care of that and I will put my ALPA pom-poms back on.....

Sorry but "I'll still love you in the morning" isn't going to cut it........

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Who'd a ever thunk I would agree with DoinTime.....The "benchmarks" and seniority method have to be spelled out in advance for me to support it.....Take care of that and I will put my ALPA pom-poms back on.....

Sorry but "I'll still love you in the morning" isn't going to cut it........

I knew if I waited long enough Joey would find some reason to be a quitter and naysayer.... true to form Joey...

Its a slighted doc isn't it Joey.... more of ALPA's garbage...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I knew if I waited long enough Joey would find some reason to be a quitter and naysayer.... true to form Joey...

Its a slighted doc isn't it Joey.... more of ALPA's garbage...

What you fail to understand is that for some of us we are attempting to protect what we have first and foremost......Why not spell out the seniority integration method first? It will be too late to oppose this after the protocol is set in stone......

The wording of "career benchmarks" is a non-starter for those of us familiar with the tired mantra of "regional lifer losers" and "stepping stone jobs".....We have heard it far too often......

It's not "garbage"....It is sound in theory....The problem lies in the application.....Enlightened self interest (polite term for "greed") rules this "association"....We have seen it in prior mergers and age 60.....Some of us have learned from history.....

Let's write up the seniority list protocol first....then more of us will support it....

 

[PCL_128]

I knew if I waited long enough Joey would find some reason to be a quitter and naysayer.... true to form Joey...

Exactly. Joey can't help but be a whiner and an obstructionist. Progress will never be made if Joey has his way.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joey doesn't have the skillset to sit down with said parties and say "I think your resolution is great.. there are great ideas.. I think we should proceed.. I would like to talk about a few points of the document".


naw.... to much for Joey...

Instead Joey will just yell, scream, animate, joke, criticise..... and of course... blame. Joey loves to blame... and when the opposite side of the table doesn't respond to Joey's intentions, Joey will use said response as more fodder and fuel for his tirade and mantra....feeding his modus operandi......which is..... a lawsuit....

Its the old frog and the scorpion story


Shove off.... you are an obstructionist and deadweight....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Exactly. Joey can't help but be a whiner and an obstructionist. Progress will never be made if Joey has his way.

It all depends on ones definition of "progress"......If it means a 2 year UAL pilot gets to bump me down.....then I will fight that "progress".....I bet you believe that he should be able to bump me down...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joey doesn't have the skillset to sit down with said parties and say "I think your resolution is great.. there are great ideas.. I think we should proceed.. I would like to talk about a few points of the document".


naw.... to much for Joey...

Instead Joey will just yell, scream, animate, joke, criticise..... and of course... blame. Joey loves to blame... and when the opposite side of the table doesn't respond to Joey's intentions, Joey will use said response as more fodder and fuel for his tirade and mantra....feeding his modus operandi......which is..... a lawsuit....

Its the old frog and the scorpion story

Two questions for you Rez....

1. Why are the UAL pilots now trying to push this thru....Why not back in 2000?

2. What are the "career benchmarks"?

I suspect the UAL pilot group is looking for an unemployment program that involves them having super-seniority over us "regional lifer losers".............

How about a definition of how the list is to be formed before we get too far ahead of ourselves....

I would be more than happy to participate in the system.....I don't think the system wants people like me to participate....They like lemmings instead....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Two questions for you Rez....

1. Why are the UAL pilots now trying to push this thru....Why not back in 2000?

2. What are the "career benchmarks"?

I suspect the UAL pilot group is looking for an unemployment program that involves them having super-seniority over us "regional lifer losers".............

How about a definition of how the list is to be formed before we get too far ahead of ourselves....

I would be more than happy to participate in the system.....I don't think the system wants people like me to participate....They like lemmings instead....

I don't know any more of the document than you.... don't try and ask me "ownership" questions as if I am an insider in this process...........

I am not a supporter of NSLs in general... they are Holy Grails.. or El Dorado's.... problem is.. guys like you blame ALPA for not creating one... or you get divisive on this...

Are you getting surplused off the ATR?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't know any more of the document than you.... don't try and ask me "ownership" questions as if I am an insider in this process...........

They are doing it because they very well may find themselves in the unemployment line soon.....Necessity is the mother of invention....

Same reason so many United pilots changed their mind on age 60 after their pensions went "poof".....

Even you have said many times that pilots think of themselves before the "collective"....

Does take a rocket scientist to figure them out....

I am not a supporter of NSLs in general... they are Holy Grails.. or El Dorado's.... problem is.. guys like you blame ALPA for not creating one... or you get divisive on this...

It would make the "collective" stronger.....In fact it would actually add a "collective"....Currently we aren't "collective".....We are every man for themselves under the current situation.....

Are you getting surplused off the ATR?

Unfortunately yes I am having to go to the RJ....No SJS here....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

you getting a pay raise?

 

[JoeMerchant]

you getting a pay raise?

.....no going to the 50...pays the same.....Why do you ask?

 

[PCL_128]

It all depends on ones definition of "progress"......If it means a 2 year UAL pilot gets to bump me down.....then I will fight that "progress".....I bet you believe that he should be able to bump me down...

Depends on how long that 2-year UAL guy has been flying for the airlines. If he was a 2-year Colgan pilot prior to getting hired at UAL, then no, he shouldn't bump you. If he was a 5-year PCL pilot before before going to UAL, then maybe so. But what I think doesn't matter, as the committee will be tasked with debating these issues. I think it will end up a lot better for you than you think it will. (if it even makes it off the floor of the BOD, anyway)

 

[PCL_128]

How about a definition of how the list is to be formed before we get too far ahead of ourselves....

That's absurd. The committee will be formed to figure out these issues. If you don't like what they come up with, then oppose it then. Opposing it now simply because of what they might do is asinine.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Depends on how long that 2-year UAL guy has been flying for the airlines. If he was a 2-year Colgan pilot prior to getting hired at UAL, then no, he shouldn't bump you. If he was a 5-year PCL pilot before before going to UAL, then maybe so. But what I think doesn't matter, as the committee will be tasked with debating these issues. I think it will end up a lot better for you than you think it will. (if it even makes it off the floor of the BOD, anyway)

So a 5 year PNCL pilot who was at United for 2 years (combined 7 years) gets to bump my 14+ years.....That's why I'm not getting warm fuzzies about this......AAA/AWA, TWA/AA, and DAL/NWA can't agree on this....There is no way the "big airplane" drivers are going to give "little airplane" drivers a fair shake....

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's absurd. The committee will be formed to figure out these issues. If you don't like what they come up with, then oppose it then. Opposing it now simply because of what they might do is asinine.

Oh an ALPA committee will be formed to protect me.....Excuse me while I.....uke:

 

[PCL_128]

So a 5 year PNCL pilot who was at United for 2 years (combined 7 years) gets to bump my 14+ years.....That's why I'm not getting warm fuzzies about this......AAA/AWA, TWA/AA, and DAL/NWA can't agree on this....There is no way the "big airplane" drivers are going to give "little airplane" drivers a fair shake....

It was just an example, Joey. I have no idea how long you've been at ASA. No, a 7 year guy probably shouldn't bump a 14 year guy. But, I would say that there should be some small advantage for mainline guys. It would not be right for you to be able to bid into the left seat of the 757 at DAL all of a sudden. Maybe 0.75 years for every year at the regionals, and 1 for 1 for every year at the majors. I don't know what the exact numbers should be, but I don't believe it should be 1 for 1 for time spent at the regionals. A 20-year Pinnacle pilot should not be able to bump an 18-year NWA Captain.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It was just an example, Joey. I have no idea how long you've been at ASA. No, a 7 year guy probably shouldn't bump a 14 year guy. But, I would say that there should be some small advantage for mainline guys. It would not be right for you to be able to bid into the left seat of the 757 at DAL all of a sudden. Maybe 0.75 years for every year at the regionals, and 1 for 1 for every year at the majors. I don't know what the exact numbers should be, but I don't believe it should be 1 for 1 for time spent at the regionals. A 20-year Pinnacle pilot should not be able to bump an 18-year NWA Captain.

Why .75 for each year? Why are "regional" years worth less? Why should an 18 year NWA pilot be able to bump a 20 year PNCL pilot?

 

[DoinTime]

It was just an example, Joey. I have no idea how long you've been at ASA. No, a 7 year guy probably shouldn't bump a 14 year guy. But, I would say that there should be some small advantage for mainline guys. It would not be right for you to be able to bid into the left seat of the 757 at DAL all of a sudden. Maybe 0.75 years for every year at the regionals, and 1 for 1 for every year at the majors. I don't know what the exact numbers should be, but I don't believe it should be 1 for 1 for time spent at the regionals.

I would agree that windfall gains cannot be had by anyone. If regional pilots are going to succumb to a glass ceiling on their ALPA seniority that handicaps them from realizing the benefits of their longevity as ALPA pilots then there is going to have to be a glass floor installed as well. This will prevent mainline pilots from realizing a windfall gain going in the opposite direction.

A 20-year Pinnacle pilot should not be able to bump an 18-year NWA Captain.

Nor should an 18 year NWA Captain be able to bump a 20 year Pinnacle pilot.

 

[PCL_128]

Why .75 for each year? Why are "regional" years worth less? Why should an 18 year NWA pilot be able to bump a 20 year PNCL pilot?

It's a matter of career expectations, Joey. No matter how long you work at ASA, you'll never fly a 767 and make $200k per year. The NSL shouldn't provide you with an opportunity to bump the 13 year senior DAL FO from bidding to that 767 slot, because he did have expectations for that slot and income. I'm sorry Joey, but your regional years simply aren't worth as much in terms of career earnings. It's just a simple fact that a 20 year ASA career is worth far less than a 20 year Delta career. You want a windfall (again), and that's just unacceptable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I would agree that windfall gains cannot be had by anyone. If regional pilots are going to succumb to a glass ceiling on their ALPA seniority that handicaps them from realizing the benefits of their longevity as ALPA pilots then there is going to have to be a glass floor installed as well. This will prevent mainline pilots from realizing a windfall gain going in the opposite direction.




Nor should an 18 year NWA Captain be able to bump a 20 year Pinnacle pilot.

:beer:
Now some are starting to see why the ASA/CMR PID failed.....It has to be a two way street.....No windfalls for EITHER side.....

 

[PCL_128]

Nor should an 18 year NWA Captain be able to bump a 20 year Pinnacle pilot.

I disagree.