Moral sinking at FLOPS

[clickclickboom]

I would acknowledge the point that management got you into this mess and that growth with a disgrunteled pilot group makes things tough.
Still, I go back to the very root of this business when established. It was not supposed to be like Netjets. Maybe that was a mistake but the concept I remember is we are going to do the fractional program at reduced cost. This started with used aircraft of all kinds. There was no go buy a bunch of aircraft from the manufacturer, remarket them for a profit, and keep maintenance costs down.
The whole point of the original scheme was to offer fractional aircraft on the cheap compared to Netjets or Flexjet. When that concept started having some problems it was morphed into something else with Raytheon who could not figure out how to make any money at it either. When Raytheon sold off Hawker, they wanted no part of Flops. On we went to someone else came along to pick the bone and now back to Ricci.
Tell me where along the path there is industry leading anything about this company.
So far, this industry has only one company, Netjets. Everyone else struggles along for a variety of purposes, with none succeeding to any level. I understand you are unhappy that you are not paid what the industry "demands" but the 14 pilots that have been through my office lately are demanding one hell of a lot less.

You are right Flops early business plan was not to be like netjets. The early opinion here was that we could do everything that they could do but better and for up to 40% less.

What that statement doesnt reveal is that in the early growth days of options the fleet plan consisted of the following:

Go out into the market and buy the absolute cheapest version of any airplanes that they could find. The whole underlying goal was that when the fractional shares were sold initial profit was the number #1 goal. Many owners ended up with airplanes that were high time run out rats.

Many of you probably remember that Falcon 50 saga that we took a bath on. ( It was bought sight unseen and had corrosion issues). Our G'IV's were serial number 1 and 2 etc...Yes there were some very nice planes that came on line but it was the exception not the rule.

You cant put a 7000 hour beechjet, Citation III, Or Hawker in fractional service at 1500 hours a year and expect to run a solid operation.

The whole point is that many owners thought the numbers were just great initially but when they were exiting the program the true cost of the program was revealed .

That remind me of a story: I flew a revenue leg into a Texas city that had a service center. We needed an evaporator sock for the apu ( $100 part)

The company needed us to repo to OKC to do an RVSM Flight test so we deferred the APU.

For some reason a Repo back to texas showing ( We assumed it for mx, the sock, or a flight the next day)

After the test we flew back and it was not showing an FBO so I made a decision to taxi to the service center. Called MX and Dispatch and they had no idea why we had a repo back there. Then spoke with MX about the part and they told us they were not authorized to use service centers due to the high cost. I mentioned that the part was in stock and was approx $100 and would take 30 mins of labor to change. He said he would call me back.

10 mins later a repo is showing to APA for MX. We blast off. 2 hours and $8000 later Upon arrival we find out that the company is paying to have the sock flown counter to counter from the service center to APA !!!!! For nearly $1000

I talk to the manager and tell him the story how we just spent $15,000 for a $100 part but all he cared about was that it was friday.Went back out did a good post flight faxed in my 501's and spent the next 3 days using up all of my denver bucks in the restaurant

Made my decision that day that Flops was no longer for me. That is unfortunate because when i first started there 8 years earlier I honestly felt as though I had won the lottery. It was such a great job I just couldnt believe it.

The bottom line is that you guys continue to finance the inefficiencies and mismanagement of this company. Do not let up you deserve better.

 

[skanza]

seek life elswhere skanza.....this board is for fractional pilots to talk about stuff. If we want your opinion we'll give it to you.

go rent a gun a buy a bullet.....

Violence? Why?
And shoot whom with rented gun/purchased bullet?

You'll ask me for my opinion if you want it? This is after all, a forum where everybody posts thier opinion. It's all up for debate. That's the purpose of a forum. But since I don't see the need for a union, my opinion is suddenly not wanted. By what measure? Obviously not from an objective point of view.

Again with the violence, why? Grow up, high school is over.

 

[brokeflyer]

no its your attitude.....i dont care what your views are. But you come in here and "suggest" that we all stop doing pre-flights.

so once again.....seek life elswhere, you attitude is disturbing. call me what you want, i fly safe and that's that. I just hope im never in the air when you are.

 

[skanza]

try again...

no its your attitude.....i dont care what your views are. But you come in here and "suggest" that we all stop doing pre-flights.

so once again.....seek life elswhere, you attitude is disturbing. call me what you want, i fly safe and that's that. I just hope im never in the air when you are.

No, you're wrong. So I'll clarify *again*. I never said "don't preflight". I and simply asking why the level of detail in a preflight changes with the reletive satisfaction (or lack there of) of the union? It's so plain to see by all that breaking green airplanes is used as leverage by union-folks. That is different than outright suggesting a halt to preflights. I would never pass on a preflight becasue my behind is also flying in that airplane. It's that simple! Get it?

No guns or violence please, its not needed.

 

[brokeflyer]

whatever sunshine.......glad you aint in my right seat....

have a nice day.

 

[SilverSurfer]

A Union under no circumstances

Violence? Why?
And shoot whom with rented gun/purchased bullet?

You'll ask me for my opinion if you want it? This is after all, a forum where everybody posts thier opinion. It's all up for debate. That's the purpose of a forum. But since I don't see the need for a union, my opinion is suddenly not wanted. By what measure? Obviously not from an objective point of view.

Again with the violence, why? Grow up, high school is over.

As I stated before, like B19, debate with you is a complete waste of time. You can find no fault with management, nor can you recognize circumstances where a Union is needed. You accused some of us as being narrow minded when in fact it is you looking at Options through a soda straw. You are unwilling to recognize the repeated failures of Options incompetent management. You find fault with pilots expressing their displeasure with management thorough a detailed preflight, yet find no fault with management for the abuses and persecutions of the pilots over the past 5 years.

It is clear that there is no reason to have any exchange with you. It is a complete waste of time.

 

[993_Pilot]

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
- Mark Twain

 

[skanza]

As I stated before, like B19, debate with you is a complete waste of time. You can find no fault with management, nor can you recognize circumstances where a Union is needed. You accused some of us as being narrow minded when in fact it is you looking at Options through a soda straw. You are unwilling to recognize the repeated failures of Options incompetent management. You find fault with pilots expressing their displeasure with management thorough a detailed preflight, Thank you for being the first one to admit this. Everyone else would dodge to subject, but you owned up to it. Good job. yet find no fault with management for the abuses and persecutions of the pilots over the past 5 years. Well, no. But that's because I need some examples that are equivalent to the "detailed preflight" stunt. No, really. I'll consider them, just share...

It is clear that there is no reason to have any exchange with you. It is a complete waste of time.

But like I keep saying. This is a forum, the purpose is to have an exchange. It would be quite boring and non-informative if a bunch of pro-union fools sat around here stroking each other. Right?

 

[skanza]

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
- Mark Twain

Nice, that's a good one. Mark Twain said a lot of great things...

"No man that has ever lived has done a thing to please God--primarily. It was done to please himself, then God next."

 

[waka]

But like I keep saying. This is a forum, the purpose is to have an exchange. It would be quite boring and non-informative if a bunch of pro-union fools sat around here stroking each other. Right?

I would venture a guess that you do not make this forum any less boring for anyone and that you induce as many yawns as B19.

As for informative, you definitely do not contribute. Perhaps you're talking about a worthy opposing voice with an intellect and basic powers of observation....that is rarely seen on this forum and is certainly not you or B19. If you and B19 are the only hopes for the anti-union voice, the management to whom you two suck up is in real trouble.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Like my bird dog...he can't tell what is in the food I feed him, however he can tell if he likes it or not (can compair). If he isn't feed, he will not fetch birds,or as well.
I, like my bird dog, don't know why FLOPs can't pay/feed me like the other jet/turbo prop fractionals. But like my specially trained dog, I won't fetch as well either.
Our Boss tells us that we are eating just as well as the other Pilots, and that we should just feel lucky that we even have a dog dish to eat it in. I, again, like my bird fetcher, can compair also.
Just a thought.

The dog doesn't have the choice of his owner or how you treat him, but I'm sure he still shows up every day and gives 100% regardless of what you feed him.

You however have the choice of an employer. If you don't like what you are getting fed, go someplace where you can get the premium food and stop complaining about it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You got what you asked for.

I would venture a guess that you do not make this forum any less boring for anyone and that you induce as many yawns as B19.

As for informative, you definitely do not contribute. Perhaps you're talking about a worthy opposing voice with an intellect and basic powers of observation....that is rarely seen on this forum and is certainly not you or B19. If you and B19 are the only hopes for the anti-union voice, the management to whom you two suck up is in real trouble.

The only yawn here is the pilot that got suckered into the promises of a union 3 years ago and didn't take his career into his own hands to improve it by moving on to a job that better suited them.

Ask those that left FLOPS 3 years ago when they weren't happy and see how they are doing today. They had the courage to take their careers into their own hands and I'm certain they are much better off today than if they had stayed where they weren't happy.

1108 made a promise they DID NOT KEEP. You idiots are still drinking the same koolaide while the ecomomy tanks. You didn't make the change three years ago, now you are stuck with what you have. You asked for it, you got it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

But like I keep saying. This is a forum, the purpose is to have an exchange. It would be quite boring and non-informative if a bunch of pro-union fools sat around here stroking each other. Right?

I can imagine what the union meetings must be like after 3 years of failure. :crying:

They have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

[B19 Flyer]

As I stated before, like B19, debate with you is a complete waste of time. You can find no fault with management, nor can you recognize circumstances where a Union is needed. You accused some of us as being narrow minded when in fact it is you looking at Options through a soda straw. You are unwilling to recognize the repeated failures of Options incompetent management. You find fault with pilots expressing their displeasure with management thorough a detailed preflight, yet find no fault with management for the abuses and persecutions of the pilots over the past 5 years.

It is clear that there is no reason to have any exchange with you. It is a complete waste of time.

Surfer, if you aren't happy... LEAVE. Five years? You are a glutten for punishment.

Oh, you can't? Waited to long? I told you three years ago you would have at least three years of turmoil and if the economy tanked in the meantime the union wasn't going to help anyway. Didn't listen? LOL.. you get what you asked for. Nothing.

Is it because you drank too much union (1108) koolaide because they promised great things they didn't deliver on or were you not qualifed enough to be hired elsewhere?

If you had left three years ago instead of attempting to force your will on others via a union, you wouldn't have anything to complain about now would you?

Three years is a long time to whine and complain because company management didn't just fold to all the union demands. They've had the courage to protect the company and stand up to 1108. You didn't have the courage to take your career and go where the money was good on your own, for whatever reason. Instead, you choose to whine like a spoiled teenager.

You are getting exactly what you asked for Surfer... stop complaining, do your job and be lucky you even have one.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Industry Standard Pay

If the business plan is flawed and can't compete can't survive, shut it down. Survival of the fittest.

If the business plan requires pilots to work for sweat shop wages, to subsidize the company with free labor, shut it down. A company that believes it's employees should accept low wages and just be happy to have a job, begins it's life with a failed business plan, shut it down.

Pay me industry standard or shut it down.

I for one will not accept any excuse for not signing a industry standard contract.

If Options management will not negotiate a industry standard contract, shut it down.

FYI, "industry standard" right now for many pilots is the unemployment line.

You will get exactly what you asked for.

 

[B19 Flyer]

no its your attitude.....i dont care what your views are. But you come in here and "suggest" that we all stop doing pre-flights.

so once again.....seek life elswhere, you attitude is disturbing. call me what you want, i fly safe and that's that. I just hope im never in the air when you are.

No, he is not suggesting that at all.

Instead, he is suggesting that you stop doing preflights that draw the ire of the courts against unions, like the court order issued by Judge Bertlesmen:

http://www.airlinesafety.com/articles/ComairInjunction.htm

Preflights as you suggest are that of a non-professional pilot that do nothing but create chatter amongst other union members and create a divide with management.

You guys have played these childish games for over three years now without success.

Isn't about time to get 1108 to live up to their promises before the well runs completely dry and there is no money left for a contract?

1108 made promises they couldn't keep and suckered all of you into staying in a job that you could have replaced ages ago and have gotten better money by now.

If you don't like it leave the fix. If unable to accept the clearance due to the state of the industry, blame yourself for getting suckered by those used car salesmen posing as union reps.

 

[OldCrow]

I'll be your Huckelberry

The dog doesn't have the choice of his owner or how you treat him, but I'm sure he still shows up every day and gives 100% regardless of what you feed him.

You however have the choice of an employer. If you don't like what you are getting fed, go someplace where you can get the premium food and stop complaining about it.

Dang B19, seems you know less about bird dogs, than you do about aviation.
I was here long before you showed up, and will be here long after you have been shown the door.

 

[Semore Butts]

So B-19,

What I'm getting here is that no progress has been made and the 1108 should move towards the pocess of striking?

For once I agree with you. Management is gonna delay as long as they can so they can run back to the boss with their hands out to say "look daddy, the business is in shambles and we saved you this much money in pilot wages"! Can I have a bonus?

Is that what you are suggesting?

You are saying 1108 has done nothing?

Are they not meeting monthly with the company?

I could almost guess that the foot dragging is on the management side? (Duh, ya think?)

It's business man, the management guys have families and are just trying to make a buck.

I'm glad I'm not in a position to make my living by f-cking over my fellow man.

That just doesn't rest right with me.

But hey! Nothing personal, it's just business!

Stay the course 1108.....

 

[brokeflyer]

give it up b9.....

 

[o2bflyn]

bbbbbooooooooorrrrrriiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnggggggg.

did someone just fart?

Sorry.....ate at White Castle.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What I'm getting here is that no progress has been made and the 1108 should move towards the pocess of striking?

For once I agree with you. Management is gonna delay as long as they can so they can run back to the boss with their hands out to say "look daddy, the business is in shambles and we saved you this much money in pilot wages"! Can I have a bonus?

Is that what you are suggesting?

You are saying 1108 has done nothing?

Are they not meeting monthly with the company?

I could almost guess that the foot dragging is on the management side? (Duh, ya think?)

It's business man, the management guys have families and are just trying to make a buck.

I'm glad I'm not in a position to make my living by f-cking over my fellow man.

That just doesn't rest right with me.

But hey! Nothing personal, it's just business!

Stay the course 1108.....

It's been three years... how much longer and how much deeper into the recession do we have to go before you realize that 1108 missed the boat?

For the last couple of years I've been saying that you had 3 years of turmoil ahead and 1108 didn't get it done while they had the best chance when the economy was good?

They failed, pure and simple, now the membership is lulled into thinking they are going to get this great contract the isn't going to and can't happen in today's economic climate.

1108 suckered all of you into thinking they could "close the deal" as fast as they did NJA. Three years and counting, and now there is a pilot pool out there willing and ready to fill your positions in a heartbeat if you strike to feed thier families...

You got what you asked for! Nothing.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Dang B19, seems you know less about bird dogs, than you do about aviation.
I was here long before you showed up, and will be here long after you have been shown the door.

Does Bud know you are tarnishing the name of his plane with pro union garbage?

My bird dogs have been all high performance performers trained by me. I've been a long standing member of NAVHDA and have been working with pointing dogs longer than I've been in aviation. If you have a dog that doesn't want to hunt, then you kept the wrong pup out of the litter and should think about placing him in a home and replacing him with one that wants to hunt.

Just like having a pilot that doesn't want to work. If you have a pilot that doesn't want to work, then you hired the wrong pilot and should think about replacing him too with one that actually wants to fly.

 

[brokeflyer]

blah blah blah.......you win.....now please stop cause your making my ears bleed.

 

[1folinepilot]

Does Bud know you are tarnishing the name of his plane with pro union garbage?

My bird dogs have been all high performance performers trained by me. I've been a long standing member of NAVHDA and have been working with pointing dogs longer than I've been in aviation. If you have a dog that doesn't want to hunt, then you kept the wrong pup out of the litter and should think about placing him in a home and replacing him with one that wants to hunt.

Just like having a pilot that doesn't want to work. If you have a pilot that doesn't want to work, then you hired the wrong pilot and should think about replacing him too with one that actually wants to fly.

The Pilots at Flight Options have allways worked hard and have done their best to hold the place together, the problem is that management has failed to work with the pilots and the rest of their employees thus allowing the place to fail! They have allready replaced Sh!tfinger and Punjab and need to continue with you Bob as well as the rest of the middle managers and corrupt PSM's. While you are at it, take Scumza with you! Flight Options needs managers that want and know how to manage

 

[B19 Flyer]

The Pilots at Flight Options have allways worked hard and have done their best to hold the place together, the problem is that management has failed to work with the pilots and the rest of their employees thus allowing the place to fail! They have allready replaced Sh!tfinger and Punjab and need to continue with you Bob as well as the rest of the middle managers and corrupt PSM's. While you are at it, take Scumza with you! Flight Options needs managers that want and know how to manage

An average bird dog will hunt no matter what he is fed. He doesn't need anything special for motivation.

Pilots come a dime a dozen for corporate aircraft and in today's marketplace they can be replaced just as easily by pilots that want to fly, not play union games.

1108 had their chance when the economy was good and they blew it. Just keep telling yourself how good you and your fellow union mongers are and that the company can't operate without the union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

blah blah blah.......you win.....now please stop cause your making my ears bleed.

If you are reading this post with your ears, it probably explains how 1108 is getting away with jamming their contract promises up the wrong orifice without you noticing it. :laugh:

 

[993_Pilot]

The dog doesn't have the choice of his owner or how you treat him, but I'm sure he still shows up every day and gives 100% regardless of what you feed him.

You however have the choice of an employer. If you don't like what you are getting fed, go someplace where you can get the premium food and stop complaining about it.

Now you're comparing us to Dogs?

 

[brokeflyer]

If you are reading this post with your ears, it probably explains how 1108 is getting away with jamming their contract promises up the wrong orifice without you noticing it. :laugh:

nah i dont work at options.....im at NJ....everything is great.

 

[993_Pilot]

It's been three years... how much longer and how much deeper into the recession do we have to go before you realize that 1108 missed the boat?

For the last couple of years I've been saying that you had 3 years of turmoil ahead and 1108 didn't get it done while they had the best chance when the economy was good?

They failed, pure and simple, now the membership is lulled into thinking they are going to get this great contract the isn't going to and can't happen in today's economic climate.

1108 suckered all of you into thinking they could "close the deal" as fast as they did NJA. Three years and counting, and now there is a pilot pool out there willing and ready to fill your positions in a heartbeat if you strike to feed thier families...

You got what you asked for! Nothing.

Allow me to point out a few errors here. The 1108 was ready and willing to negotiate, however the management lead by MS, was not. It is not the 1108 that has failed us, it is you and the rest of management. Now that MS and most of his crew are gone, we may actually have a chance of getting this done. You are correct about the timing not being so good, but that is not something any of us can control. There is no way the management could bring in a bunch of strike breaking scabs and keep the company viable, because it takes both money and time to get them trained. If the training costs didn't put Flops out of business, the time frame would, from the charter costs alone. Not to mention how many owners would be anxious (or even willing) to fly with the newly hired scabs, after having to cross picket lines? So, next you would probably see a class-action lawsuit by the present Flops owners, for failing to perform to their contracts... Big $$, just to fight it + all the bad press. If that is how you see Flops succeeding, then you better dust off your resume' too!

With all this said, none of us want to see it ever go this far. We just want a contract negotiated in good faith, and done in a reasonable time frame.

Wake up, and get real. This isn't the airlines!

 

[FR8DOG777]

Your'e a complete friggin joke 1.9

Give it up we are tired of hearing your dribble. If we are just a dime a dozen how come the last few hiring campaigns went so well. Flops has the very worst reputaion as an aviation employer bar none. Hell even the line guys know how fckking bad is is to work here. We got rid of that little tyrant trying to replace us all with young unexperienced pilots eager to fly shiny jets. Just what the real people funding our paychecks wanted to see in the cockpit flying them around. We are now in the process of getting rid of you. We will stay and fight for what is rightfully ours, respect, honor and fair pay, things of which you know nothing about.