Moral sinking at FLOPS

[Publishers]

Did not even know I wrote an AIN news alert blog.
By the way, I think owners are the key to this company surviving, not pilots. My point is not to downgrade pilots but to stress the absolute need to get the company moving on the marketing and sales side, to stop further attrition besides what is going ot be lost over the economy. The economic indicators right now suck to use a technical term and it does not bode well for a company that does not have all cylinders running. Paying pilots more is not a solution to the bigger problems.

 

[SilverSurfer]

You don't getit

Did not even know I wrote an AIN news alert blog.
By the way, I think owners are the key to this company surviving, not pilots. My point is not to downgrade pilots but to stress the absolute need to get the company moving on the marketing and sales side, to stop further attrition besides what is going ot be lost over the economy. The economic indicators right now suck to use a technical term and it does not bode well for a company that does not have all cylinders running. Paying pilots more is not a solution to the bigger problems.

More owners are the key to our companies success, goes without question. Where you are missing it is those customers will not stay nor new ones be attracted to a company that is in the throws of a ugly labor dispute. The PILOTS are the most important ingredient toward keeping existing customers, and attracting new ones. If Riccie and company do not settle our negotiation, the dispute rages on, pilots remain unhappy, new customers largely stay away, and existing customers go to other providers when their contracts allow.

We can't control outside factors like the economy but internal problems can be solved. If Riccie allows negotiations to labor on and the pilots dissatisfactions with their job and the company to fester, it will be his fault if we don't survive.

In case you don't know we make half of what the rest of the Fractional industry pilots make. we have far less benefits, we are flying the oldest fleet, and until Riccie came back we had a couple of complete morons running the company. The pilots did not create the dilemma we are in management did. But the pilots are the key to Options solving our problems and making it possible for Options to survive.

"Paying pilots more is not a solution to the bigger problems."

You could not be more wrong. This is the exact solution to our problems and the only thing that will save our company.

 

[993_Pilot]

Well said 'surfer !

 

[skanza]

More owners are the key to our companies success, goes without question. Where you are missing it is those customers will not stay nor new ones be attracted to a company that is in the throws of a ugly labor dispute. The PILOTS are the most important ingredient toward keeping existing customers, and attracting new ones. If Riccie and company do not settle our negotiation, the dispute rages on, pilots remain unhappy, new customers largely stay away, and existing customers go to other providers when their contracts allow.

We can't control outside factors like the economy but internal problems can be solved. If Riccie allows negotiations to labor on and the pilots dissatisfactions with their job and the company to fester, it will be his fault if we don't survive.

In case you don't know we make half of what the rest of the Fractional industry pilots make. we have far less benefits, we are flying the oldest fleet, and until Riccie came back we had a couple of complete morons running the company. The pilots did not create the dilemma we are in management did. But the pilots are the key to Options solving our problems and making it possible for Options to survive.

"Paying pilots more is not a solution to the bigger problems."

You could not be more wrong. This is the exact solution to our problems and the only thing that will save our company.[/quote]

I just wondered where that money is going to come from...

 

[brokeflyer]

seek life elswhere skanza.....this board is for fractional pilots to talk about stuff. If we want your opinion we'll give it to you.

go rent a gun a buy a bullet.....

 

[SilverSurfer]

5 years to think about that

More owners are the key to our companies success, goes without question. Where you are missing it is those customers will not stay nor new ones be attracted to a company that is in the throws of a ugly labor dispute. The PILOTS are the most important ingredient toward keeping existing customers, and attracting new ones. If Riccie and company do not settle our negotiation, the dispute rages on, pilots remain unhappy, new customers largely stay away, and existing customers go to other providers when their contracts allow.

We can't control outside factors like the economy but internal problems can be solved. If Riccie allows negotiations to labor on and the pilots dissatisfactions with their job and the company to fester, it will be his fault if we don't survive.

In case you don't know we make half of what the rest of the Fractional industry pilots make. we have far less benefits, we are flying the oldest fleet, and until Riccie came back we had a couple of complete morons running the company. The pilots did not create the dilemma we are in management did. But the pilots are the key to Options solving our problems and making it possible for Options to survive.

"Paying pilots more is not a solution to the bigger problems."

You could not be more wrong. This is the exact solution to our problems and the only thing that will save our company.[/quote]

I just wondered where that money is going to come from...

Options management and ownership have had 5 years to think about that and construct a plan to pay pilots what the industry demands.

As I stated in a previous post, like B19, your limited scope and mentality make reasoning with you impossible and a complete waste of time. Your assumptions are childish and many of your statements are incoherent dribble regurgitating in one form or another the same anti union bilge.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

"Paying pilots more is not a solution to the bigger problems."

You could not be more wrong. This is the exact solution to our problems and the only thing that will save our company.[/quote]

I just wondered where that money is going to come from...

Skumza....what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[993_Pilot]

...I just wondered where that money is going to come from...

This ignorant statement shows just exactly just how much you know about business. How about...
...from the re-branding budget?
...from the re-painting the aircraft budget?
...from the Sony Reader budget?
...from the New EFB's budget?
...by charging the customers enough to cover it instead of subsidizing them out of our pockets?
Shall I go on?

There is nothing wrong with owning the "Value Proposition" part of the market, but the employees shouldn't have to subsidize the clients, who are among the wealthiest 1% of the worlds population. If a company can't afford to pay the employees an industry standard wage, then either they are not charging enough for their product or service or they're mismanaging the money, Period. It is up to management to figure out which, but we aren't competing with companies that use Chinese slave labor you know!

 

[Publishers]

I would acknowledge the point that management got you into this mess and that growth with a disgrunteled pilot group makes things tough.
Still, I go back to the very root of this business when established. It was not supposed to be like Netjets. Maybe that was a mistake but the concept I remember is we are going to do the fractional program at reduced cost. This started with used aircraft of all kinds. There was no go buy a bunch of aircraft from the manufacturer, remarket them for a profit, and keep maintenance costs down.
The whole point of the original scheme was to offer fractional aircraft on the cheap compared to Netjets or Flexjet. When that concept started having some problems it was morphed into something else with Raytheon who could not figure out how to make any money at it either. When Raytheon sold off Hawker, they wanted no part of Flops. On we went to someone else came along to pick the bone and now back to Ricci.
Tell me where along the path there is industry leading anything about this company.
So far, this industry has only one company, Netjets. Everyone else struggles along for a variety of purposes, with none succeeding to any level. I understand you are unhappy that you are not paid what the industry "demands" but the 14 pilots that have been through my office lately are demanding one hell of a lot less.

 

[Frac Cap]

Good rebuttal 993, logical and to the point. Skanza, you lose any creditability by saying stuff like that on this board. You will always have people like 993 to make you look stupid and uninformed if you post coments like that. I don't know if you just want to antagonize us, but we already have one B-19 causing trouble and making stupid antagonistic responses, please don't make it two.

The simple fact is, moral will not get back to where the owners deserve it be until we get an industry standard pay. I must admit, my moral came up a bit when we were getting positive change from the new management. But that change has stalled, and we are now getting into yet another holiday season with our 1990's type wages. Our pilots are trying to figure out how to make ends meet with the memory of management telling our owners during the holiday season not to tip their pilots because we are well compensated. I fear that the passengers will see that nothing has changed, late aircraft, broken aircraft, 3 tail number changes before departure, grumpy pilots with a lack of desire to not just go the extra mile, but to just get the job done. They will put their money else where next year I'm sorry to say. Why would they risk it, I wouldn't if I were them. You don't pay all this money to see depressed pilots up front flying your family around, and I fear that is all we will have this holiday season, depressed pilots.

 

[SilverSurfer]

I would acknowledge the point that management got you into this mess and that growth with a disgrunteled pilot group makes things tough.
Still, I go back to the very root of this business when established. It was not supposed to be like Netjets. Maybe that was a mistake but the concept I remember is we are going to do the fractional program at reduced cost. This started with used aircraft of all kinds. There was no go buy a bunch of aircraft from the manufacturer, remarket them for a profit, and keep maintenance costs down.
The whole point of the original scheme was to offer fractional aircraft on the cheap compared to Netjets or Flexjet. When that concept started having some problems it was morphed into something else with Raytheon who could not figure out how to make any money at it either. When Raytheon sold off Hawker, they wanted no part of Flops. On we went to someone else came along to pick the bone and now back to Ricci.
Tell me where along the path there is industry leading anything about this company.
So far, this industry has only one company, Netjets. Everyone else struggles along for a variety of purposes, with none succeeding to any level. I understand you are unhappy that you are not paid what the industry "demands" but the 14 pilots that have been through my office lately are demanding one hell of a lot less.

The Options marketing concept was different form NJ focusing on a “value added” concept offering used aircraft of similar or better capability as the competition but at lower prices. If this concept was not workable or survivable is open to debate. However you contention that the relative value of Options over all service was less than the competition is incorrect. One of Options marketing tags always was that our pilots were as good or better then the competition’s. Additionally, Riccie repeatedly stated that Options pilots were the best in the industry and would maintain the position of highest paid in the industry. The history of the various poor managements that have made up the CGF brain trust have squandered opportunity again and again and compounded this with a poor grasp of this industry. We went for a company that understood and focused on how to cater to the rich and famous, to a corporate mentality bent on modeling Options after a Sh!tbag commuter. This management held the view that we, Options’s pilots, were somehow second rate and treated us that way. Hence the Union.

“Tell me where along the path there is industry leading anything about this company.”

The pilots at Options are industry leading professionals that are worth industry standard wages and benifits. I will put any pilot at Option’s up against any competition pilot any day. What is not industry leading is the management we have had and now the worn out aircraft we operate. I hope that Riccie coming back to Options will remedy both of these industry substandard aspects of our company.

“I understand you are unhappy that you are not paid what the industry "demands" but the 14 pilots that have been through my office lately are demanding one hell of a lot less.”

Unemployed pilots tend to accept far less to keep the family fed then pilots that have been at a company for as long as 12 years. Those 14 pilots will also be the first to leave for greener pastures as soon as they find them. Hopefully these 14 are quality professionals that will do a good job for the substandard wages you want to pay them.

 

[993_Pilot]

...Tell me where along the path there is industry leading anything about this company....

Well, the management sure thinks we are. Almost every press release starts of with:

"CLEVELAND, Ohio (Insert Date Here) Flight Options, a leading provider of safe, reliable and luxurious private air travel services, announced today that. . ."

Click HERE to See them.

 

[Publishers]

"If this concept was not workable or survivable is open to debate. However you contention that the relative value of Options over all service was less than the competition is incorrect."
The trouble is that the first line is the whole point of being in business. If the first part is not workable, survivable, AND profitable, the rest means absolutely nothing.
Marketing tags are exactly that, tags. Would anyone say come fly my company, we have young inexperienced pilots barely out of flight school.
Secondly, does it really matter how "leading professionals that are worth industry standard wages" if you have no cash flow to pay them.
We live in a time where GM today said they were running out of cash.
I guess my concern is that rather than be worried about your industry standard --never have even understood that concept -- I am wondering why you are not concerned that there is going to be a FLOPS at all.

 

[OldCrow]

Its like this

Like my bird dog...he can't tell what is in the food I feed him, however he can tell if he likes it or not (can compair). If he isn't feed, he will not fetch birds,or as well.
I, like my bird dog, don't know why FLOPs can't pay/feed me like the other jet/turbo prop fractionals. But like my specially trained dog, I won't fetch as well either.
Our Boss tells us that we are eating just as well as the other Pilots, and that we should just feel lucky that we even have a dog dish to eat it in. I, again, like my bird fetcher, can compair also.
Just a thought.

 

[jetwash]

Like my bird dog...he can't tell what is in the food I feed him, however he can tell if he likes it or not (can compair). If he isn't feed, he will not fetch birds,or as well.
I, like my bird dog, don't know why FLOPs can't pay/feed me like the other jet/turbo prop fractionals. But like my specially trained dog, I won't fetch as well either.
Our Boss tells us that we are eating just as well as the other Pilots, and that we should just feel lucky that we even have a dog dish to eat it in. I, again, like my bird fetcher, can compair also.
Just a thought.

My wife puts it another way.


You can sweet talk a woman and buy her dinner, but without a commitment (contract) she won't let you get in her pants.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Pay me industry standard

"If this concept was not workable or survivable is open to debate. However you contention that the relative value of Options over all service was less than the competition is incorrect."
The trouble is that the first line is the whole point of being in business. If the first part is not workable, survivable, AND profitable, the rest means absolutely nothing.
Marketing tags are exactly that, tags. Would anyone say come fly my company, we have young inexperienced pilots barely out of flight school.
Secondly, does it really matter how "leading professionals that are worth industry standard wages" if you have no cash flow to pay them.
We live in a time where GM today said they were running out of cash.
I guess my concern is that rather than be worried about your industry standard --never have even understood that concept -- I am wondering why you are not concerned that there is going to be a FLOPS at all.

If the business plan is flawed and can't compete can't survive, shut it down. Survival of the fittest.

If the business plan requires pilots to work for sweat shop wages, to subsidize the company with free labor, shut it down. A company that believes it's employees should accept low wages and just be happy to have a job, begins it's life with a failed business plan, shut it down.

Pay me industry standard or shut it down.

I for one will not accept any excuse for not signing a industry standard contract.

If Options management will not negotiate a industry standard contract, shut it down.

 

[993_Pilot]

A good majority of the pilot group worked here when Mr. Ricci was is charge the first time, and he always said that the would have the highest paid pilots in the industry. I know he remembers this because he mentioned it in his first address to the employees. He seems to be finding money to do other things like painting the entire fleet, so I am confident that he could find the money to pay his employees something similar to the competition. The big question is does he want to, or is he going to play us like "Gordon Gecko" would?

 

[skyismyoffice]

My wife puts it another way.


You can sweet talk a woman and buy her dinner, but without a commitment (contract) she won't let you get in her pants.

I am ready to get in her pants! (the company not your wife)

 

[FR8DOG777]

Welcome to the forum Jonny Ornstein

I would acknowledge the point that management got you into this mess and that growth with a disgrunteled pilot group makes things tough.
Still, I go back to the very root of this business when established. It was not supposed to be like Netjets. Maybe that was a mistake but the concept I remember is we are going to do the fractional program at reduced cost. This started with used aircraft of all kinds. There was no go buy a bunch of aircraft from the manufacturer, remarket them for a profit, and keep maintenance costs down.
The whole point of the original scheme was to offer fractional aircraft on the cheap compared to Netjets or Flexjet. When that concept started having some problems it was morphed into something else with Raytheon who could not figure out how to make any money at it either. When Raytheon sold off Hawker, they wanted no part of Flops. On we went to someone else came along to pick the bone and now back to Ricci.
Tell me where along the path there is industry leading anything about this company.
So far, this industry has only one company, Netjets. Everyone else struggles along for a variety of purposes, with none succeeding to any level. I understand you are unhappy that you are not paid what the industry "demands" but the 14 pilots that have been through my office lately are demanding one hell of a lot less.

I guess you should go ahead and let those fourteen flight instructors fly your cessna 152's for free to build time. It always astounds me how people like you can justify not paying pilots a fair wage. I am sure if we sign a substandard five year contract and the economy gets back on track, they sell the sh!t out of the phenom 300 the company will out of the goodness of their hearts go ahead and share the wealth. The truth of the matter is we have financed one bad management decision after another. The weekly message states we are still a fractional provider, wish to continue selling fractional shares, however not pay our hard working pilots a fractional salary. Pay up or close the doors. Management has had ample time to save up and figure out how they can finance the wages. Like another poster said maybe take a little out of the refurb fund, the repaint fund, or the over paid ceo fund. Either way come up with the money or close the doors.

 

[brokeflyer]

Trying to "do it" cheaper than NJ is why they fail. These people who buy into this want superior service with safety. The truly belive that you get what you pay for. I've spoke to many owners in the past that were all in favor of a price increase to afford to pay us. THEY want us paid well, just like I want my heart surgeon to be paid well.