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Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

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johnsonrod

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Posts
4,218
HOUSTON (Dow Jones)-Pilots at Continental Airlines Inc. (CAL) and UAL Corp.'s (UAUA) United Airlines want to end outsourcing of flying to regional partners following their planned merger, a move likely to shake up the industry's already turbulent labor relations.

The companies' pilots aim to finalize a new joint contract by the end of the year, and this week proposed bringing all flying in-house over a period of years following a merger that would create the world's largest airline by revenue.

U.S. network airlines have outsourced large parts of their domestic networks to an array of regional airlines over the past 20 years in a bid to cut costs, though the amount is capped by "scope" clauses in their pilots' collective bargaining agreements.

Jay Pierce, head of Continental's pilots' union, expects the proposal to receive a cool reception from management, but said mainline company pilots can fly regional jets just as cheaply following years of contract concessions.

"We put it on the table [on Wednesday]," said Pierce in an interview at the union's Houston office. "It's a proposition we believe will not be readily acceptable [to management]."

Continental Airlines has one of the industry's most restrictive scope clauses. Only mainline pilots can fly jets with more than 50 seats, and the airline contracts ExpressJet Holdings Inc. (XJT) to fly more than 200 smaller Embraer aircraft on its behalf.

United has more flexible work practices that enable it to fly more than 150 70-seat regional jets. Rising fuel costs have made 50-seat jets less economic, while the emergence of new aircraft in the 70 to 130-seat range have made airlines look to loosen the restrictions of existing scope clauses.

The proposal from the Continental and United pilots includes an initial cap on outsourcing, then a move away from the practice over what Pierce described as "multiple years".

Continental declined comment.

Management throughout the industry has become stuck in a mindset where they feel they have to subcontract more flying, said Pierce.

U.S. network airlines have already carved out almost all of their regional flying units. AMR Corp. (AMR) is working on plans that could lead to a sale or spin-off of its American Eagle business, and Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) recently sold two of its three remaining regional operations.

Pierce said he is confident a new pilots' deal can be hammered out with Continental and United by year-end, in line with the airlines' merger schedule, though a decision will be taken Oct. 12 whether enough progress has been made to continue the current fast pace of negotiations.

The airlines and the pilots have learned lessons from previous mergers, especially the combination of America West to form an enlarged US Airways Group Inc. (LCC), where labor issues remain unresolved after five years. Pilots at Delta and Northwest Airlines forged a joint deal before the two carriers merged in 2008.

"Being third is good," said Pierce. He said one of the thorniest issues - merging the airlines' pilot seniority lists - won't be tackled until a new contract is agreed.

Other areas include furloughs. United has more than 1,400 pilots on furlough while Continental has 147, all of whom Pierce expects to be called back by year-end. The transition deal calls for furloughed United pilots to be called back to whichever airline requires them before any fresh hiring.
 
Great news if you're at mainline already, but not so great if you're a regional depending on the growth that the relaxed scope could bring. Should be interesting to see how it works, ASA has trip/duty rigs that Continental does not have, such as min day and 2:1.
 
Great news if you're at mainline already, but not so great if you're a regional depending on the growth that the relaxed scope could bring. Should be interesting to see how it works, ASA has trip/duty rigs that Continental does not have, such as min day and 2:1.

I'm sure it'll be helpful driving the lav truck after we're done with the regionals. It's gonna happen. There's too much at risk for us and it's the number 1 issue above compensation. I think everyone gets it finally. I also don't think the United folks will make the same mistake twice.
 
By all means, let's get more jobs at mainline. That's what should have been the case all along.

I just find it funny that they want to do this AFTER a ton of their guys are on furlough. I didn't hear them screaming about scope when it led to bigger paychecks and more work rules and larger retirements.

Funny how morality in the majors is a sliding scale.
 
By all means, let's get more jobs at mainline. That's what should have been the case all along.

I just find it funny that they want to do this AFTER a ton of their guys are on furlough. I didn't hear them screaming about scope when it led to bigger paychecks and more work rules and larger retirements.

Funny how morality in the majors is a sliding scale.


That is the reality. I tbelieve it is politically suicide for any alpa mec to agree on scope relief.
 
He wants to fly a 100 seat jet for 50/70 seat pay.

Now why do you think that every RJ driver out there wants to stay at a regional? I'd rather be somewhere with the option to fly transcons, crossings, and domestic ops, with better work and rest rules, and quality of life than I can get at a regional.

Continental does not have those work rules. They don't. Will their new contract include better work rules? I sure hope so. If they want to fly RJs and take them from their feeder companies, I think that's great for their pilots.
 
Now why do you think that every RJ driver out there wants to stay at a regional? I'd rather be somewhere with the option to fly transcons, crossings, and domestic ops, with better work and rest rules, and quality of life than I can get at a regional.

Continental does not have those work rules. They don't. Will their new contract include better work rules? I sure hope so. If they want to fly RJs and take them from their feeder companies, I think that's great for their pilots.


It's good for everyone. It's not about major airline pilots versus regional airline pilots. It's creating and forming an industry that for once can provide stable long term careers for all. This whipsawing and outsourcing has to stop. It's out of control. We're like a pack of starved dogs going after a small meal. The United folks had this scope issue put to them with a gun to their heads. The CAL folks had C 02 put before them with a gun to their heads. Not now.....and it's gonna change.
 
In the discussion what is the plan for the fines and penalties that the airline will incur by recovering the lost flying. Does anyone know when the contracts are coming due and what fines and assessments will be levied if the contracts are cancelled?

En Mort Main
 
Well this should make the ASA/XJT merger that more interesting. They signed a new 10 or 15yr agreement with Continental/UA as part of the aquisition of XJT.

You can bet managment at UA/CO will fight this hard.

I agree it would be better for the pilots, but its gonna be a long road to get there.
 
Well this should make the ASA/XJT merger that more interesting. They signed a new 10 or 15yr agreement with Continental/UA as part of the aquisition of XJT.

You can bet managment at UA/CO will fight this hard.

I agree it would be better for the pilots, but its gonna be a long road to get there.


Yeah, UAL never breaks contracts, especially with their regional partners.
 
In the discussion what is the plan for the fines and penalties that the airline will incur by recovering the lost flying. Does anyone know when the contracts are coming due and what fines and assessments will be levied if the contracts are cancelled?

En Mort Main

No contracts will be broken, they just won't be renewed, so the fines will be 0. This is the most reasonable approach possible. Being a CAL furloughed guy, I would prefer a contract that says no more 70 seat period, but that would be impossible. Mainline will need time to plan for the transition, so it is a perfect plan to do it over 5-10 years.

With the new 90-110 seat "regionals" coming out, 70 seats will be obsolete, so it should be very interesting at the regionals over the next 5 years. I don't see any mainline group giving more scope unless there is another terrorist attack and all the airlines are in bankruptcy court. They have survived the worst economic downturn since the recession with capacity contraint, so I don't see the economy pushing anyone into bankruptcy.

I think the long term outlook for the regionals is back to regional flying - fuel efficient turboprops on short legs to feed mainline. At some point, mainline will want the newer 90-100 seat efficiency rather than the 50-70 seaters, but further scope relief will be needed for the regionals to be able to offer that flying. Thats why I think you will see a transition back into the markets they were originally serving - small regions.

To anyone who is younger than 45 or 50 at a regional, you should all be very happy if this is accomplished. Mainline has been beaten down, so there is only one way to go. I loved my time at skywest, we had better workrules than at Continental, but the flying can't compare in terms of quality of life. I would think very hard about staying at a regional for my career.
 
And who is going to do all this flying? There are about 7000+ pilos at UAL/CAL regionals. How is the new UAL going to find 7000 pilots to fly all these planes, even if it is done over time? Oh wait, I know....the Regional guys can apply to UAL for a job they already had at 1st year FO rates! Sounds great for a 10-15 yr Captain! How many people does this plan put out of work? THOUSANDS upon thousands of people that work at regional companies in many capacities, from secretarial to VP. The plan sounds so great on paper......Let's take back all 500+ RJ's to mainline UAL! Lets put a half dozen companies out of business, and make all the pilots scramble to find work as a new hires on the planes they already fly.

Maybe the only way this works is UAL absorbs all the companies onto their list. How about date of hire with fences. Do we still have a deal?
 
And who is going to do all this flying? There are about 7000+ pilos at UAL/CAL regionals. How is the new UAL going to find 7000 pilots to fly all these planes, even if it is done over time? Oh wait, I know....the Regional guys can apply to UAL for a job they already had at 1st year FO rates! Sounds great for a 10-15 yr Captain! How many people does this plan put out of work? THOUSANDS upon thousands of people that work at regional companies in many capacities, from secretarial to VP. The plan sounds so great on paper......Let's take back all 500+ RJ's to mainline UAL! Lets put a half dozen companies out of business, and make all the pilots scramble to find work as a new hires on the planes they already fly.

Maybe the only way this works is UAL absorbs all the companies onto their list. How about date of hire with fences. Do we still have a deal?

those 10-15 year captain losing their jobs because the flying is being absorbed by mainline is not any different then the flying just being transfered to a different regional and those captain losing their jobs.
Oh wait except then can go on first year at that other regional getting the flying or the mainline getting the flying, you decide what's better?
 
And who is going to do all this flying? There are about 7000+ pilos at UAL/CAL regionals. How is the new UAL going to find 7000 pilots to fly all these planes, even if it is done over time? Oh wait, I know....the Regional guys can apply to UAL for a job they already had at 1st year FO rates! Sounds great for a 10-15 yr Captain! How many people does this plan put out of work? THOUSANDS upon thousands of people that work at regional companies in many capacities, from secretarial to VP. The plan sounds so great on paper......Let's take back all 500+ RJ's to mainline UAL! Lets put a half dozen companies out of business, and make all the pilots scramble to find work as a new hires on the planes they already fly.

Maybe the only way this works is UAL absorbs all the companies onto their list. How about date of hire with fences. Do we still have a deal?

A job they already had? Well, I guess in this case that I described they wouldn't have it any more, so that is irrelevant. Why don't you ask the 1400 UAL pilots who got furloughed while the regional fleet grew how bad they would feel about it? My post wasn't a jab at the regionals, it was simply my opinion. There has been tremendous downsizing of mainline fleets due to regional growth, many people have been laid off because of that. I am not blaming the pilots, I enjoyed my time at a regional. I am just saying that if scope gets held here, it may come back around full circle. I have no control except for my vote, whatever happens is going to happen. Markets work themselves out regardless of what I want or what you want.

I am simply making the argument that there is no reason for any more scope relief, hopefully tightening. If that happens, and it is a trend, the regional market will totally change based on what the demands of the legacy carriers are.

You have to understand something - the regionals are not immune to the ups and downs of this industry, in fact I would argue that once the expansion at the regionals stops, they will be more impacted because they rely solely on their legacy partners and because the barriers to enter that market are much cheaper than as a standalone LCC so there will always be plenty of regionals fighting for the contracts. This is reality, like it or not.

If the government ever allows cabotage, neither you nor myself will have a job anymore. This is what we signed up for, we can't control any of this stuff, it will just happen as it does. I am just making a bet on it, with no money behind it of course as I am furloughed.
 
Plenty of CAL pilots formerly at ASA and the like who are kicking themselves for getting involved with a scab outfit with ZERO work rules. I've seen the schedules and I'm glad to not be there or furloughed Untied. This is just more SCAB chest pounding.
 
Plenty of CAL pilots formerly at ASA and the like who are kicking themselves for getting involved with a scab outfit with ZERO work rules. I've seen the schedules and I'm glad to not be there or furloughed Untied. This is just more SCAB chest pounding.

oh yeah bro, every single pilot I know from ASA wishes they never came to CAL. In fact, every pilot that came over to our scab airlines regrets it. What I don't understand is why intelligent pilots like yourself didn't talk these poor souls out of it!

why I respond to such a worthless post, I do not know.
 
Plenty of CAL pilots formerly at ASA and the like who are kicking themselves for getting involved with a scab outfit with ZERO work rules. I've seen the schedules and I'm glad to not be there or furloughed Untied. This is just more SCAB chest pounding.

Well then those former ASA pilots can quit. I will bet you any amount of beer or your liquor of choice that there are no former ASA pilots at CAL or United who would take their previous job back.
 

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