Latest DAL/NWA arbitration debates

[michael707767]

Is that why NWA brings 63 of the 73 aircraft to the table which have a MTGW over 500K?

NWA also brings all of the aircraft with a MTGW of less than 140k.

 

[nwaredtail]

NWA also brings all of the aircraft with a MTGW of less than 140k.

Yup, and those are the most profitable airplane that Delta now flies, thank you very much.

 

[JohnQ]

Yup, and those are the most profitable airplane that Delta now flies, thank you very much.

And you base that statement on....?

Our 777s flying to Dubai and Mumbai are making a ton of $$$--as no doubt your A330s are elsewhere. I strongly doubt the -9 is "the most profitable" airplane out there, though I'm glad it is sticking around with the lower price of oil.

 

[Superpilot92]

when will this be over? I cannot wait.

Me either! I am so sick or hearing the arm chair arbitrators on here.uke: December 8th can't get here soon enough.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yup, and those are the most profitable airplane that Delta now flies, thank you very much.

This guy is Super Tanker ... just flame bait.

The next stupid post with no source and he goes right next to Tanker on the ignore list.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Me either! I am so sick or hearing the arm chair arbitrators on here.uke: December 8th can't get here soon enough.

Agreed & my offer to buy is valid any time you are in town.

 

[Superpilot92]

Heck, just enjoy the raise and go back to your "Glass Half Full."

I have no idea if NWA's expectations were raised as high as is indicated on this board. If so, why?

how did I know you would take offence to the arm chair quarterback comment? why the sudden reemergance of fins on here? You getting nervous?

Take a step back fins and realize nothing YOU or I say on here will change a thing!

Don't worry about me, my glass is and will stay half full! I have way to much time left in this to get bent out of shape about this "drama".

 

[Scope out RJ's]

really? I always thought the A330-300 and 747's had more seats in them than the 777. Again, I am sorry for my error. You better call DAL and tell them.

No need to. And don't worry, your thoughts are correct. Its just too bad your pay didn't match the size of the aircraft sparky!

Maybe at day one, then everyone moves up more on a % basis at the combined company. This is called a win-win vs. DAL screws NWA

You ought to know about screwing junior. Your side has been at it for 22 years and counting.

Gee, then maybe the 6% I lose day one, 22% at year 10 and 60% at year 17 are just my imagination.. Tell me how I was going to retire in the top .05% at NWA or DOH, but the highest I get is 17% under DAL screw job. Where does the math get 1%.

Fact is you are either lying or full of crap. You choose.

:laugh:
A NW guy accusing someone of lying. Oh the iorny!

.

Then you won't mind a dynamic list, because you wouldn't of had NWA retirements anyway, right?

Keep dreaming sport. Other than smaller airplanes and paychecks the only thing you're bringing to the dance is you DOH. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Superpilot92]

Agreed & my offer to buy is valid any time you are in town.

there you go again changing your post! how can you expect me to comment back when you change what it is I am commenting back on?

I may take you up on the offer someday. :beer:

Just remember your glass will always be on the half FULL side if you make the contents inside your glass worth. (hint: start by leaving aviation out of it)

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Is that why NWA brings 63 of the 73 aircraft to the table which have a MTGW over 500K?

Schwanker

Then tell me why they pay less than an aircraft that weighs at less than 255,000 MTGW?
And they also bring more of the lowest paying aircraft to the table.

 

[General Lee]

Attention all Delta Pilots: The DC9 is just another airplane. You don't need to be afraid of it. I'm sure after a few sim periods and after a few trips, you will do just fine. You guys are still pilots right? If you're that scared, go out to your local FBO and rent a Cessna to get back the feel of really flying an airplane.

NWA has some of the best instructors and a great training program to get you through your checkout on the DC9.

That's not how our guys describe it on the stand. Sounds like it will be in it's own category, all by itself, with it's pilots.....


And you can just see a highlight
23 there that the DC-9 is severely limited in
24 range and the amount of capacity that it has.


2 Northwest management in one of their
3 bankruptcy documents that we put in
4 Exhibit 31, page six says that the limited
5 range of the DC-9 limits its growth
6 opportunities.


And again, what I did was I took the
23 DC-9 fleets, the individual fleet types within
24 that DC-9 fleet, and compared them to the
25 MD-88, which is Delta's airplane with the

2 least amount of capabilities or the lowest
3 capability aircraft that we have in the
4 medium-gauge domestic.
5 And you can see there that the
6 bottom line, especially comparing the maximum
7 ASM, there's more than just a small
8 difference. There's a large difference
9 between those airplanes. And that's why we
10 felt that the DC-9 did deserve to be in a
11 separate grouping than all of the other
12 aircraft in that medium-gauge domestic.

The
22 MD-88 -- if we looked at the previous one, the
23 MD-88 is used as a hub-feed aircraft.
24 Sometimes it will go Atlanta to Savannah or
25 Atlanta to Knoxville and feed passengers.

2 But it also has the capability to
3 do long-range outflow from the hubs. It
4 landed in Tucson, landed in Phoenix. They are
5 now using it on long-range Caribbean turns to
6 go down to the islands and back.
7 The DC-9 just doesn't have the
8 capability to do that. So therefore it's
9 limited to staying within a certain range of
10 the hubs.

think Captain Gilroy testified
11 that most of the DC-9 missions are less than
12 500 miles. And primarily in today's markets
13 those airplanes are being relegated to the
14 smaller, more fuel-efficient 50 to 76 seat
15 market


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Then tell me why they pay less than an aircraft that weighs at less than 255,000 MTGW?

1/1/08 pay:

A330 - $161.51
75/6 -$ 159.98

Next.....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

1/1/08 pay:

A330 - $161.51
75/6 -$ 159.98

Next.....

So much for the ignore list, eh sparky?
You're welcome for the pay raise........
Next!

 

[General Lee]

1/1/08 pay:

A330 - $161.51
75/6 -$ 159.98

Next.....

Wait, you were comparing the A330 to the 764 in the hearings, and 12th year Capt on that is $181 an hour. Which is closer? A330---$161.51 and 757/767 $159.98 or $161.51 and $181 on the 764? I think you are WRONG. Thank gawd those two rates are related (A330 and 76ER)--and they will likely be grouped together. Just like the DC9 will be all by itself at the bottom.

Also, do you believe today's rates should be used rather than what we each had prior to the DCC? Let's see what the testimony on that said...:


Is that the Delta pilot's view of
3 how the analysis regarding staffing ratios and
4 captain jobs ought to be conducted?
5 A. In the balancing of the equities,
6 the collective bargaining agreement that the
7 pilots come into the merger with is what
8 should be considered.
9 Q. And the jobs they hold?
10 A. And the jobs that they hold


NEXT.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Klamath]

reading all this makes my head hurt. maybe on dec 8th I'll stop drinking beer, or maybe I'll drink more

 

[jetflier]

think Captain Gilroy testified
11 that most of the DC-9 missions are less than
12 500 miles. And primarily in today's markets
13 those airplanes are being relegated to the
14 smaller, more fuel-efficient 50 to 76 seat
15 market

I think most are not really seeing the truth behind these statements.

Management loves to use "fuel Efficiency" as a justifiable reason to want to replace the DC9 (100 seat) with the EMB (76seat) aircraft.

True that the much smaller regional jet burns less fuel,..saves money. fourty percent less pilot cost,... saves money.

But they never address the cost of the smaller/newer jet, somewhere around $8000/day loan/lease.

The reasoning is clear, management has convinced the pilot group that giving main line pilot job's to the regional pilots is good for them.
I'm surprised that some mainline pilots agree with management's line of thinking.
Salty old ALPA pilots who fought to make the pilot profession great, must be rolling over in their graves.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They do not want to address that. Fact is that the acquisition cost of a RJ is about what it costs for a D check on a 757. Scary isn't it?

 

[TWA Dude]

If ALPA violates DFR, yeah, they'll get sued. I'm sure Prater realizes that and knows that screwing either side would result in a decertification drive.

Prater may realize it but that doesn't mean he's smart enough to avoid it. Remember, he tried appeasing the USAir Easties and they decerted ALPA anyway. Don't expect Prater to do the wise thing if action is needed.

 

[DTW320]

So much for the ignore list, eh sparky?

Nah...it's still there....but sometimes your massive stupidity shines through even an ignore filter.....funny how that works.

 

[~~~^~~~]

TWA Dude:

The only visible threat on the horizon is something ACL has speculated about, the idea of a ratio for the senior pilots and a different methodology for a disadvantaged group of new hires so that Delta and ALPA could jerrymander furloughs and scope protections. If that happened it would be a clear violation of the Duty of Fair Representation inasmuch as a different standard was used with a disparate impact. The could do nearly the same thing by adjusting integration ratios and be a lot less blatant in a DFR violation, so I think that is probably how they would do it, if they wanted to do it, which I'm not even sure they want to do it.

The arguments brought forward in the SLI hearings have not even touched tangentially on splitting methodologies for the junior pilots, so I have to think there is little chance of that happening by mutual agreement. ACL65 is probably correct that it was a consideration during negotiations and I hope the idea died there for all the right reasons.

If you are from TWA, I certainly understand where you are coming from.

On the NWA side, who knows what they expect, but it seems that they expect much more than status quo, which might be a problem.

 

[DTW320]

Wait, you were comparing the A330 to the 764 in the hearings, and 12th year Capt on that is $181 an hour. Which is closer? A330---$161.51 and 757/767 $159.98 or $161.51 and $181 on the 764? I think you are WRONG. Thank gawd those two rates are related (A330 and 76ER)--and they will likely be grouped together. Just like the DC9 will be all by itself at the bottom.

Also, do you believe today's rates should be used rather than what we each had prior to the DCC? Let's see what the testimony on that said...:


Is that the Delta pilot's view of
3 how the analysis regarding staffing ratios and
4 captain jobs ought to be conducted?
5 A. In the balancing of the equities,
6 the collective bargaining agreement that the
7 pilots come into the merger with is what
8 should be considered.
9 Q. And the jobs they hold?
10 A. And the jobs that they hold


NEXT.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

So....the 767-400 weighs less than 255K?

Hey ShortBus:

READ THE POST I RESPONDED TO. Here, I'll help you out:

Then tell me why they pay less than an aircraft that weighs at less than 255,000 MTGW?

Next!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Nah...it's still there....but sometimes your massive stupidity shines through even an ignore filter.....funny how that works.

:laugh:
Keep dreaming sport. Stupidity that disputes everything your nut drainer spouts off. Don't dispute the facts.
Now get back under that rock. I bet you get lonely with only your 3 nalpa pals there.
Keep em coming junior. You're a bucket of laughs.
NEXT!

 

[DTW320]

What a pathetic loser you are.....Go learn basic math and tell me which of the numbers I posted is LESS than the other.....I thought even a 737Pylt like yourself could do that....guess not. You tried to dispute something....but basic math shows that you're an idiot. Keep on shining that great intellect for all to see!

Dispute that

 

[Scope out RJ's]

What a pathetic loser you are.....Go learn basic math and tell me which of the numbers I posted is LESS than the other.....I thought even a 737Pylt like yourself could do that....guess not. You tried to dispute something....but basic math shows that you're an idiot. Keep on shining that great intellect for all to see!

Dispute that

Its quite obvious reading comprehension isn't in your best interest. I showed you (nice of you to use JPWA rates, again you're welcome junior ), but you're too stupid to comprehend that. Of course if common sense was so common, you'd have some.
Even a detiolet pylofsh*t like yourself can see that.:laugh:
Well, maybe not.
NEXT!

 

[DTW320]

Its quite obvious reading comprehension isn't in your best interest. I showed you, but you're too stupid to comprehend that. Of course if common sense was so common, you'd have some.
Even a detiolet pylofsh*t like yourself can see that.:laugh:
Well, maybe not.
NEXT!

Ahhh....your standard MO again. Ignore the facts that you were spanked with since they show you to be an idiot. Got it.

Time for your math lesson again. Which number is LESS? $161.51 OR $159.98. Think hard. You can do it.


Next Moron please! You're Up!

 

[skystud25]

Not to throw Scope and DTW off of their personal war, but what is this Dec. 8 date that keeps getting thrown around? And please, no morons telling me that it's been discussed elsewhere- if I had unlimited time to peruse the message boards I'd rename myself something with a "super" or "general" in it. What happened to the late Nov. date or Dec. 20? I remember reading somewhere that the NWA MEC never signed off on Dec. 20, so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[DTW320]

Not to throw Scope and DTW off of their personal war, but what is this Dec. 8 date that keeps getting thrown around? And please, no morons telling me that it's been discussed elsewhere- if I had unlimited time to peruse the message boards I'd rename myself something with a "super" or "general" in it. What happened to the late Nov. date or Dec. 20? I remember reading somewhere that the NWA MEC never signed off on Dec. 20, so maybe that has something to do with it.

It was mutually agreed to be changed to 12/8. It is in one of the recent DALPA MEC updates for you.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Edited - still figuring out who inserted "pull out - plug in."

 

[~~~^~~~]

And just for comic relief:

ARBITRATOR HOROWITZ: And also this
12 new color scheme is intriguing. I'm
13 assuming from your remark that the pink
14 refers to Northwest pilots?
15 ARBITRATOR EISCHEN: I think it's
16 magenta.
17 THE WITNESS: I think it's the ink
18 cartridge.

 

[nwaredtail]

OK, this debate probably deserves it's own thread, but, can anyone explain NWA's latest SLI methodology, the pull out, plug in, method?

If I follow this correctly, NWA's positions during rebuttal have been:

1. We want DOH
2. Since DOH is too one sided (even by NWA numbers) we want a ratio with dynamic seniority
3. Since dynamic seniority has never been implemented and might not be workable, we want to argue Delta's ratios
4. If we are going to use ratios, lets pre-load the NWA's retirements based on age and pull these pilots out of the list, move the NWA pilots up, then plug the old NWA pilots back in the list.

Is this right? The net effect is a 5 to 1 ratio NWA to DAL at the top of the list - wow.

Wow, I guess this is what the interpretation is when you put on your uniform, get drunk in front of a computer then type. Call the general for his list of meds, amybe they can help.

Seriously, are you OK?