Latest DAL/NWA arbitration debates

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Dyanamic list... notta chance that will happen. Keep dreaming.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

aircraft types is not what the merger committees were discussing. i agree you shouldnt go between the these two types. Dangerous? this I disagree with.

I didn't see the context, nor did you post the context.

Guaranteed there would be plenty of violations at the least if guys were transitioning back and forth between the diesels and the maddogs.

 

[aircowboy]

You guys really don't understand how arbitration works.

I am suprised the Delta pilots don't seem to care about this integration. I was at the hearing on Saturday the 15th and there were about 35 NorthWest onlookers and only 2 Delta guys in a DELTA Base. Must not be very important.

Back to the point. Idiots like General Lee don't seem to understand how arbitration works. I suggest you read Blochs opening comments on the 15th. When the Arbitrators make an award they are not allowed to go outside of what was presented. They can't just pull an idea out of their ace and implement it. For this reason Bloch and Co. could only choose the unfair Delta static plan or the little more fair DOH NWA proposal. The Arbitrators wanted more then a choice between two bad choices and asked the groups to make an alternate proposal on dynamic seniority, (which any idiot will see is 100 percent fair because everyone gets exactly what they would have before the merger).
Your geniuses on the Delta Merger Committee rejected the opportunity to present an alternate (they want a windfall or nothing) and spent the day trying to say the same old "NWA got a pay rate raise so we get their attrition and seniority",

NWA showed good faith and obliged Bloch with a alternate proposal. By the way, your lawyer tried to say it stapled 1/3 of the Delta guys on the bottom which was absolutely not true. At one point the Delta guys are where they would have been pre-merger......on the bottom of THEIR equipment and the list 5 years later reverses the trend as Delta retirements begin.

How is it unfair for everyone to get exactly what they expected. The Fact your guys are against Dynamic shows their arrogance and their desire for a windfall.
In a Dynamic with restrictions a NWA guy retires a NWA guy gets his spot on NWA aircraft. A Delta guy retires a Delta Guy gets his slot on a Delta aircraft......so tell me again how this is not fair.

Our witness was trying to explain the reversal when your lawyer said the abomination quote.

The fact is our retirements at NWA are happening sooner then yours and then yours will kick in, be patient and you will get there exactly as EXPECTED!

The arguments your team are putting up are weak..."its never been done before" thats "never been considered before" each merger has unique parameters to consider and the fact most have been ugly suggests a new direction. I think the Arbitrators hear what the Delta guys are really saying......."whine sniffle, we are Delta we deserve a windfall". Good luck with that!!! I predict dynamic will be the way.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Not so. TWA had both glass and steam-gage MD80s in a common fleet. No big deal.

Doesn't SWA essentially do the same with their 737-300/500 series aircraft and the 700 series?

 

[NuGuy]

the 764 and the 767 have the same type. Should they be treated the same?

The 757 and the 767 also have the same type, and they're treated the same, so, what's your point?

The whole FMS/steam gauge is argument is laughable.

At PDT, we had EFIS and steam gauge aircraft. One type had a RNAV unit, and the other had a GPS/FMS. Pilots went back and forth leg by leg. Pilots got one day of differences ground school...not even any OE.

The MD-88 really isn't even full EFIS, in the Airbus, or even RJ sense of the term. It's that sort-of EFIS that's really just a EADI and EHSI with an FMS thrown in. Yawn.

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

How is it unfair for everyone to get exactly what they expected. The Fact your guys are against Dynamic shows their arrogance and their desire for a windfall.

In a Dynamic with restrictions a NWA guy retires a NWA guy gets his spot on NWA aircraft. A Delta guy retires a Delta Guy gets his slot on a Delta aircraft......so tell me again how this is not fair.

It would be a great way of doing it if it ran until every pilot on the list retires and completely separated current equipment and it's replacement. 15 years just happens to let NW enjoy their retirements (good) and also enjoy a good portion of the greater number of DL retirements after the 15 year point. A true dynamic list would allow DL guys only to fly the larger guage equipment we bring and then take sole advantage of our larger number of retirements from 10 years on while you do the same with yours. In other words it's a lifetime fence which is fine with almost everyone here. Unfortunately that's not what your guys proposed.

If you're hoping for this, I think you'll be dissapointed. I think what you'll see is a ratio that allows all to share the gains and pains on some equal basis on a single list.

 

[nwaredtail]

You guys really don't understand how arbitration works.

I am suprised the Delta pilots don't seem to care about this integration. I was at the hearing on Saturday the 15th and there were about 35 NorthWest onlookers and only 2 Delta guys in a DELTA Base. Must not be very important.

Back to the point. Idiots like General Lee don't seem to understand how arbitration works. I suggest you read Blochs opening comments on the 15th. When the Arbitrators make an award they are not allowed to go outside of what was presented. They can't just pull an idea out of their ace and implement it. For this reason Bloch and Co. could only choose the unfair Delta static plan or the little more fair DOH NWA proposal. The Arbitrators wanted more then a choice between two bad choices and asked the groups to make an alternate proposal on dynamic seniority, (which any idiot will see is 100 percent fair because everyone gets exactly what they would have before the merger).
Your geniuses on the Delta Merger Committee rejected the opportunity to present an alternate (they want a windfall or nothing) and spent the day trying to say the same old "NWA got a pay rate raise so we get their attrition and seniority",

NWA showed good faith and obliged Bloch with a alternate proposal. By the way, your lawyer tried to say it stapled 1/3 of the Delta guys on the bottom which was absolutely not true. At one point the Delta guys are where they would have been pre-merger......on the bottom of THEIR equipment and the list 5 years later reverses the trend as Delta retirements begin.

How is it unfair for everyone to get exactly what they expected. The Fact your guys are against Dynamic shows their arrogance and their desire for a windfall.
In a Dynamic with restrictions a NWA guy retires a NWA guy gets his spot on NWA aircraft. A Delta guy retires a Delta Guy gets his slot on a Delta aircraft......so tell me again how this is not fair.

Our witness was trying to explain the reversal when your lawyer said the abomination quote.

The fact is our retirements at NWA are happening sooner then yours and then yours will kick in, be patient and you will get there exactly as EXPECTED!

The arguments your team are putting up are weak..."its never been done before" thats "never been considered before" each merger has unique parameters to consider and the fact most have been ugly suggests a new direction. I think the Arbitrators hear what the Delta guys are really saying......."whine sniffle, we are Delta we deserve a windfall". Good luck with that!!! I predict dynamic will be the way.

Very well written and exactly what is happening. As far as Delta not offering any other way of making this happen, all that I can say is, "isn't this what USAIR did?"

Thanks for going to the meeting. You would think LAX being a DAL base, more of their pilots would show support for the guys trying to get them a windfall.

 

[~~~^~~~]

AirCowboy,

Sincerely, thanks for at least reading and understanding, which is more than most folks do.

The "Abomination" quote was a swipe at your Atty. A NWA witness used to the term first to describe the Delta proposed ratio.

I for one agree with the status quo benefit of the dynamic concept. As long as it is started from a fair ratio that recognizes pay differences and current equipment. The problem is in the implementation and duration. NWA wants to cut it off before the Delta retirements kick in.

And of course, we have to spit growth airplanes if we are going to keep the list split.

We are not hearing much about this set of facts:

11 The third take-away is, as we said
12 before, Northwest has had a significant loss
13 of aircraft in 2008 starting in January,
14 April, June, and then a further briefing to
15 their board of directors in September. And
16 then overall that would cause, on a
17 stand-alone basis, Northwest would go through
18 2009 with many fewer jobs than they started in
19 2008.

Management came to us sometime in
22 September and said unless we hire more pilots
23 now, we're going to bust through the TLV
24 requirements for the MD-88 co-pilot position.
25 And we have done an analysis that
2 showed -- a comprehensive analysis that showed
3 the degree of overstaffing at Northwest. And
4 so given that information, when management
5 came to us we agreed to waive that section of
6 the contract to allow Delta to understaff the
7 MD-88 co-pilot category for a certain period
8 of time in anticipation of future events.

The problem continues to be that NWA comes to the party with more pilots than jobs and that scares the Delta side when NWA tries to stick Delta pilots below the DC9 guys. We've been trying to hold slots open for your pilots ... not that anyone has got on this board and thanked Delta's MD88 pilots who are working their butts off to make that possible.

Again, I've got no problem with NWA pilots getting the benefit of NWA retirements.

I think it is most likely the arbitrators will award a ratio and figure the increased pay more than makes up for attrition. That's what has been done over and over again in the past.

 

[~~~^~~~]

there's been major fleet reductions in
21 2008. In January in that memo that we just
22 referenced, that was where they initially
23 announced the loss of 33 DC-9s and three
24 freighters.
25 In April, there was an additional
TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
Page 2725
1 PILOTS OF NORTHWEST - DELTA ARBITRATION
2 announcement of ten more DC-9s, four A-320's
3 and three 757s. And then in June of 2008
4 there was an additional announcement of seven,
5 757s.
6 In September of 2008 the Northwest
7 management made a presentation to their board
8 of directors about their future fleet plan
9 that contained some further reductions, even
10 from that June memo that had been sent out....
Captain Stevens had talked
5 about and there was a range of 250 to 300
6 furloughs that Northwest management had
7 communicated to Captain Stevens.

 

[nwaredtail]

there's been major fleet reductions in
21 2008. In January in that memo that we just
22 referenced, that was where they initially
23 announced the loss of 33 DC-9s and three
24 freighters.
25 In April, there was an additional
TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
Page 2725
1 PILOTS OF NORTHWEST - DELTA ARBITRATION
2 announcement of ten more DC-9s, four A-320's
3 and three 757s. And then in June of 2008
4 there was an additional announcement of seven,
5 757s.
6 In September of 2008 the Northwest
7 management made a presentation to their board
8 of directors about their future fleet plan
9 that contained some further reductions, even
10 from that June memo that had been sent out....
Captain Stevens had talked
5 about and there was a range of 250 to 300
6 furloughs that Northwest management had
7 communicated to Captain Stevens.

Any logical person knows that any fleet announcements after the merger announcement date (which all of these were) were driven by mother Delta. Any reductions will be shared by the combined group, as has been the case in almost all previous cases. How many planes did Delta announce they were parking a few months ago, 17ish I think I remember.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Even if your allegation is true, it speaks to the number of jobs NWA brings to the table v/s number of pilots. Delta currently needs to hire, per the testimony given:

The actual job count change was 294 for Delta and minus 613 for Northwest.

This also explains why NWA is so determined to get Delta guys below their DC9 pilots. NWA knows the number of furloughs they have been told are coming.

I hope that Delta can help you with your problem, but not at the expense of forcing Delta pilots out of a job.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

FIN there is nothing wrong with them trying to help their membership. We would do the same thing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FIN there is nothing wrong with them trying to help their membership. We would do the same thing.

Then why haven't we?

Delta's MEC, using the efforts of Delta pilots, has tried to hold slots open for excess NWA pilots while at the same time NWA has stacked their list with "Disabled Retired Pilots" who have no intention of turning a wheel. Isn't that a stark contrast?

Then NWA's Counsel tries to breach the non-prejudicial agreement that facilitated our working together to get the NWA pilots to pay parity, so he can turn the NWA pilots' new pay against the Delta pilots. That strikes at the heart of the intent of those mutual agreements.

If Delta played the NWA game of stacking the list it would benefit you and result in more furloughs. I'm glad the surviving MEC does not fight like the NWA MEC does, but still ....

 

[nwaredtail]

Even if your allegation is true, it speaks to the number of jobs NWA brings to the table v/s number of pilots. Delta currently needs to hire, per the testimony given:

This also explains why NWA is so determined to get Delta guys below their DC9 pilots. NWA knows the number of furloughs they have been told are coming.

I hope that Delta can help you with your problem, but not at the expense of forcing Delta pilots out of a job.

Why did you leave out the rest of the testimony from your witness that stated that they didnt count 350 positions for the DC-9 because they "figured" they be gone. Cherry picking once again.

 

[General Lee]

Funny, I can't find where they said any of that. Disadvantages from a day 1 snapshot maybe, but 5 to 10 years down the road, most DAL pilots make out better under the combined DOH model at the new DAL than they would have of DAL stood alone.

Under your POS model all DAL pilots benefit on the backs of NWA pilots. That won't fly.

I guess your model has no disadvantages for NWA pilots, like:

1. losing 5-10% seniority from day one.
2. Losing 10-20 over the next 5-10 years
3. Losing up to 50% over 15 years

but those numbers the NWA guys should just ignore?

You, GL and others just cherry pick your arguments but with no substance behind it. Your arguments make y'all the USAIR of this SLI arbitration.

You are upset that your bottom 400 were placed at the bottom of our proposal (up to 350 were likely going to be furloughed anyway), when your new and fun dynamic list would have placed our bottom 3000 on the bottom of the list? Oh wait, only for 5 years....right? Whatever.... You fail to see the big picture here---you got a large raise, you fly a lot of smaller, older planes that none of us want to fly, while we are bringing more and newer metal to the dance, that pay more. You can't see it...... I bet the arbitrators can.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why did you leave out the rest of the testimony from your witness that stated that they didnt count 350 positions for the DC-9 because they "figured" they be gone. Cherry picking once again.

Were those pilots going to fill in for all of the senior guys who have ALREADY RETIRED that are still on your list today? Why do you still have names on your list for guys that left a long time ago? Sounds weird........would you like me to post the testimony showing that?

And did we leave out 350 DC9 slots? Didn't you add 631 787 slots? Where are they? You had 425 DC9 Captains in that computer model. Are you sure you will have that many? Also, are we comparing pay rates from NOW or from prior to the DCC? We are comparing them PRIOR, since we are looking at what each of us had going into this merger---carreer expectations you know...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why did you leave out the rest of the testimony from your witness that stated that they didnt count 350 positions for the DC-9 because they "figured" they be gone. Cherry picking once again.

If I were "Cherry Picking" I'd have posted Dave Stevens' e-mail.

Do you care to dispute the fact that NWA brings more pilots than jobs to the party? If so, bring it.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I stated that should do everything for their pilots, not that I agreed with it or that it would prove fruitful.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Oh, I agree.

The other side states, "What is Truth?"

 

[General Lee]

If I were "Cherry Picking" I'd have posted Dave Stevens' e-mail.

Do you care to dispute the fact that NWA brings more pilots than jobs to the party? If so, bring it.

I so far have not shared that one, but I have referred to it...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

[ You fail to see the big picture here---you got a large raise,

NEVER been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Raises are temporary, seniority forever. DAL pilots didn't give us a raise, DAL did. You already had yours with LOA 19 (remember the one that you left us out of)

you fly a lot of smaller, older planes that none of us want to fly,

NEVER been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Do you mean the most profitable airplane in the newly combined fleet, the DC-9? Yup, we fly those.

while we are bringing more and newer metal to the dance, that pay more.

"merger of equals", already a moot point with this arbitration panel. Never been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Stop making this so easy for me.

You can't see it...... I bet the arbitrators can.

Still wondering why they wanted a presentation of a dynamic list? Just keep sticking to your proposal, General. Don't move an inch. Ask the USAIR guys how that worked for them.


Your problem is you talk out both sides. One post it's "I hope we get more 747-200/DC-9's so we can grow", then 2 posts later it's "you are going to park all your DC-9's and freighters, I know, I have seen the memo" Truth is, you are scared and I truly understand that after reading all the testimony.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NEVER been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Raises are temporary, seniority forever. DAL pilots didn't give us a raise, DAL did. You already had yours with LOA 19 (remember the one that you left us out of)

NEVER been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Do you mean the most profitable airplane in the newly combined fleet, the DC-9? Yup, we fly those.
Ask the USAIR guys how that worked for them.

Are you Tanker Clown?

Pay and equipment have been the cornerstone of very merger and the very definition of status quo in merger methodology and in ALPA's merger goals. I posted that quote earlier from ALPA's Merger Policy.

You claim a DC9 makes more money than a 777, or a 767? Really? Please post those numbers and a source.

You can ask YOUR ATTORNEY about US Air, he is the same Counsel they used for their arbitration. Give him a call, scooter, and let us know will ya' ?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

But remember one thing. If DAL did not keep the bar up, and in fact raise it with LOA 19, there would have been no charted ground for the NWA pay rates and work rules to rise to.

 

[General Lee]

NEVER been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Raises are temporary, seniority forever. DAL pilots didn't give us a raise, DAL did. You already had yours with LOA 19 (remember the one that you left us out of)

I said YOU needed to look at the big picture and quit crying, not the arbitrators. Did we leave you out of LOA19? Wasn't Stevens in Mexico enjoying himself at the time? Maybe he was wondering about any furloughs you guys were going to incur?




NEVER been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Do you mean the most profitable airplane in the newly combined fleet, the DC-9? Yup, we fly those. Size of planes don't matter? Tell RH that, he has been debunking your A330 myth during this last hearing. He also has been talking about our pay rates going into the merger. Remember what your Captain Av said about "the money...."




"merger of equals", already a moot point with this arbitration panel. Never been mentioned in an arbitrators award. Stop making this so easy for me.

Making it easy for you? You need to tell your people at the hearing to stop making my job so easy. Wow, great sound bites.. I have never heard so many "No, I don't believe so" sound bites from your people after our lawyer asks them if what they are proposing has EVER been done before.





Still wondering why they wanted a presentation of a dynamic list? Just keep sticking to your proposal, General. Don't move an inch. Ask the USAIR guys how that worked for them. Our proposal was correct from the beginning. Did you see when Bloch told our lawyer he didn't have to ask anymore questions about your dynamic list? I could post it for you.


Your problem is you talk out both sides. One post it's "I hope we get more 747-200/DC-9's so we can grow", then 2 posts later it's "you are going to park all your DC-9's and freighters, I know, I have seen the memo" Truth is, you are scared and I truly understand that after reading all the testimony. I want us to grow and have a mainline, but I don't want our pilots to have to bid the DC9, your guys can continue to fly them and enjoy them. Great. Our guys shouldn't have to. That is the key. I like mainline planes, but you can fly the old ones that aren't LNAV or VNAV capable. If you like that type of flying, go for it. And, those 742s may not be here soon, and if that is the truth, I don't want our guys to be affected by what your guys brought to the table. It should affect you. It is great that 1 of your pax 742s was picked up by the CRAF. How about the rest of them? How are other cargo carriers doing? How many 742Fs are out there flying regularly to Asia? Not many.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[xjhawk]

when will this be over? I cannot wait.

 

[patrickdc9]

Bye Bye---General Lee

Attention all Delta Pilots: The DC9 is just another airplane. You don't need to be afraid of it. I'm sure after a few sim periods and after a few trips, you will do just fine. You guys are still pilots right? If you're that scared, go out to your local FBO and rent a Cessna to get back the feel of really flying an airplane.

NWA has some of the best instructors and a great training program to get you through your checkout on the DC9.

 

[Raskal]

when will this be over? I cannot wait.

I'm worried it will never be over, even after the "decision". Lawsuits in the near future is my prediction, a shame really.

 

[Noserider76]

Attention all Delta Pilots: The DC9 is just another airplane. You don't need to be afraid of it. I'm sure after a few sim periods and after a few trips, you will do just fine. You guys are still pilots right? If you're that scared, go out to your local FBO and rent a Cessna to get back the feel of really flying an airplane.

NWA has some of the best instructors and a great training program to get you through your checkout on the DC9.

The scary part is that all its assembly line sibblings have been frosty beverage containers for many, many years now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm worried it will never be over, even after the "decision". Lawsuits in the near future is my prediction, a shame really.

So far, this has been one of the cleanest mergers ever. Unless ALPA pulls out some really boneheaded last second agreement that throws a particular segment of the seniority list under the bus, I don't see a Cause of Action.

If ALPA violates DFR, yeah, they'll get sued. I'm sure Prater realizes that and knows that screwing either side would result in a decertification drive.

 

[Schwanker]

Facts:
1. NWA brings smaller aircraft to the table, relative seniority by equipment is our status quo without the merger.

Is that why NWA brings 63 of the 73 aircraft to the table which have a MTGW over 500K?

Schwanker