Jeff is Challenging Scope.

[luckytohaveajob]

Exactly it is a CAL problem and CAL PILOTS need to address the problem. Not blame others for picking up the crumbs left behind.

CAL pilots are too stupid to look in the mirror.

 

[Flybywire44]

DONT RELEASE SCOPE! OFFER TO DO REGIONAL FLYING AT THE SAME RATES! That would be a pay raise for all current FOs who became Captains and you'd lay the foundation for future pilots to have longer seniority.

 

[jonjuan]

DONT RELEASE SCOPE! OFFER TO DO REGIONAL FLYING AT THE SAME RATES! That would be a pay raise for all current FOs who became Captains and you'd lay the foundation for future pilots to have longer seniority.

Mgmt will NOT fall for this sucker punch as A) they have to pay major airline benefits, B) they will lose the financial flexibility to outsource cheaply, and C) they know that once the flying is brought in house, higher rates will be demanded.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Mgmt will NOT fall for this sucker punch as A) they have to pay major airline benefits, B) they will lose the financial flexibility to outsource cheaply, and C) they know that once the flying is brought in house, higher rates will be demanded.

No one thinks that mgmt is going to "fall" for anything, but if Smisek's business plan for the new United going forward is to utilize 70+ seat aircraft, he better wrap his head around the idea that they're going to be flown by mainline pilots. Any TA that provides SCOPE relief will never pass. This isn't the same old Continental Ghost of Christmas Past. Oh, and while I'm at it Jeff, I wanted to personally thank you and your team for dragging your feet long enough with these contract negotiations to get us another 148 "NO" votes back on property. I'm sure they will come in handy...

 

[jonjuan]

No one thinks that mgmt is going to "fall" for anything, but if Smisek's business plan for the new United going forward is to utilize 70+ seat aircraft, he better wrap his head around the idea that they're going to be flown by mainline pilots. Any TA that provides SCOPE relief will never pass. This isn't the same old Continental Ghost of Christmas Past. Oh, and while I'm at it Jeff, I wanted to personally thank you and your team for dragging your feet long enough with these contract negotiations to get us another 148 "NO" votes back on property. I'm sure they will come in handy...

Just to be clear, are you saying that any cba which includes regional flying 51 seats and above won't pass? Or is it 70 seats and above? Or is it ALL regional flying? Just wondering what will contractually pass muster. Thx.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Just to be clear, are you saying that any cba which includes regional flying 51 seats and above won't pass? Or is it 70 seats and above? Or is it ALL regional flying? Just wondering what will contractually pass muster. Thx.

Yes, that is probably a better way of saying it; my apologies. Any TA that allows the regionals to fly 51 seats and above will not pass (excluding the current Q-400 loophole the company found). Continental's Scope clause is the best part of our current CBA, and we're not about to give that up. The culture at this place changing fast, one retirement at a time.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Let us not forget that contract carriers provide liability protection. Management knows aircraft accidents are going to happen. They use contract carriers to protect the main line from the lawsuits. Colgan is a great example they crashed and Continental claims to have no involvement or know anything about Colgan’s operations and walked away. Colgan will be a memory before the lawsuits are settled.

 

[densoo]

Let us not forget that contract carriers provide liability protection. Management knows aircraft accidents are going to happen. They use contract carriers to protect the main line from the lawsuits. Colgan is a great example they crashed and Continental claims to have no involvement or know anything about Colgan’s operations and walked away. Colgan will be a memory before the lawsuits are settled.

Yes. ..........

 

[jonjuan]

Let us not forget that contract carriers provide liability protection. Management knows aircraft accidents are going to happen. They use contract carriers to protect the main line from the lawsuits. Colgan is a great example they crashed and Continental claims to have no involvement or know anything about Colgan’s operations and walked away. Colgan will be a memory before the lawsuits are settled.

LOL-OK. If you think a driver of outsourcing is the deferral of liability, I have a long, fat bridge to sell you. Outsourcing simply provides flexibility and cost savings through whipsawing. Insurance covers liability and besides, attorneys will direct their attentions to where the money, and outsourcing decisions were made, big momma. Any jury of non aviators will tell you that. CAL had very little oversite which was probably on purpose. Speaking of regional vs. major safety, it was just a short time ago and the fortunate placement of a concrete building in DEN which fortunately allowed everyone to walk away from an epic disaster.

 

[rattler]

Let us not forget that contract carriers provide liability protection. Management knows aircraft accidents are going to happen. They use contract carriers to protect the main line from the lawsuits. Colgan is a great example they crashed and Continental claims to have no involvement or know anything about Colgan’s operations and walked away. Colgan will be a memory before the lawsuits are settled.

This is a hot topic in congress right now. Expect it to change.

 

[rattler]

Just a thought for some of you regional guys that have been bashing the mainline profession. When CAL/UAL wins 51+ seat scope, Delta and AMR will likely follow. According to the Boyd Group (and many others), the 50 seat RJ will be history in 10 years due to simple economics. Will your airline still pay $100K+ for you to fly whatever is left? When I look at it this way I understand why you so strongly support the continued decay of mainline jobs. For those that wish to work for a mainline carrier, all will be hiring in massive numbers with agressive movement due to attrition and addition of 51+ seat jets.

 

[jonjuan]

Just a thought for some of you regional guys that have been bashing the mainline profession. When CAL/UAL wins 51+ seat scope, Delta and AMR will likely follow..

No way in H E L L ual will completely give up their 51 seat scope overnight. It would cost them way too much. A slow phase out or drawdown I can see them doing, but no way they'll do it overnight. The lawsuits alone from the regionals who see contracts broken will be obscene. It'll be most interesting to see who alpa sides with as both majors and regionals will come crying should things not go their way.
The 51 seat drawdown will happen, but much more slowly than those at ual expect. Patience, grasshopper, patience.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

It'll be most interesting to see who alpa sides with as both majors and regionals will come crying should things not go their way.
The 51 seat drawdown will happen, but much more slowly than those at ual expect. Patience, grasshopper, patience.

How is ALPA going to defend Skywest and Republic? Neither is an ALPA carrier!

Yogi

 

[Flopgut]

How is ALPA going to defend Skywest and Republic? Neither is an ALPA carrier!

Yogi

Do their work agreements state that they will not honor a picket line? Because that's what it's possibly going to come to. Quickly.

 

[mamba20]

At this point I'm ready to either burn this place down or go on strike just out of the principle from all the BS since this whole contract negotiation started over 3 years ago.

 

[rattler]

[/QUOTE]No way in H E L L ual will completely give up their 51 seat scope overnight. It would cost them way too much. A slow phase out or drawdown I can see them doing, but no way they'll do it overnight. The lawsuits alone from the regionals who see contracts broken will be obscene.[/QUOTE]

No one said overnight. The likely senerio is implementing sunset clauses. Don't forget UAL wants to break the CAL pilots contract, that will be very expensive too.

[/QUOTE] It'll be most interesting to see who alpa sides with as both majors and regionals will come crying should things not go their way.
The 51 seat drawdown will happen, but much more slowly than those at ual expect. Patience, grasshopper, patience.[/QUOTE]

ALPA's structure is broken down by MEC. National will stay out of it. Scope is the number one agenda from both the UAL and CAL MECs, do you really think National will get involved and risk losing their biggest customer? It's not going to happen. National knows very well, they will make more money by supporting scope.

 

[Ex737Driver]

National knows very well, they will make more money by supporting scope.

Unless of course you have UAL now pull a USAIR. Almost 13000 pilots leaving ALPA for an independent union? I think ALPA knows where to bigger dollar sign is here. ALPA has put itself in the mess of trying to represent two groups of pilots that are opposed to each other, whether they like it or not. You can't have your cake and eat it too and ALPA is still trying to do just that.

 

[bluefin]

What would happen if the new UAL pulled the plug on ALPA? I think alpa would fold. Perhaps alpa just put themselves into the proverbial, "CORNER", how can they support both sides? what if the new jcba has a strict scope and regionals do start losing flying and furlough as a result? or if scope gets shafted and the new UAL furloughs another 1,000 while 70 seaters run rampant and become an even larger part of mainline? who does alpa support? These scenarios may lead to the demise of alpa, especially at UAL.

 

[andyd]

The demise of ALPA is well under way at DAL. The days of sending 30,000,000 a year to support further outsourcing of our jobs are over. Where was ALPA when the whole UAL/Air Lingus thing went down? Oh, that's right there were some play nice protests and the widebody jobs were outsourced anyway. This is a shot across the bow to every pilot group by every company. Don't think for a minute the AA, Delta, Us Air aren't sitting back scheming to come up with a way to transfer widebody flying to our codeshare carriers...and thus our top paying jobs that we all strive for to end our carreers at the top of the food chain. Scope is no longer about just the RJ's....we now have to worry about Ethiad, Ethiopian, Emirates, ect. In the future which includes ALPA at your company you will see our jets painted in "Star Alliance" or "One World" colors...and the subsequent pilot groups whipsawed against each other and the flying being transferred to the lowest bidder.....JUST as it is now in the US domestic RJ market.

Continuing to send dues to National Alpa is like paying the retainer for your wife's divorce lawyer.

http://www.delta-pilots.org/

 

[rattler]

Again, ALPA will follow the money. What is 1.95% of a regional airlines pilot payrole vs. a mainline payroll? Don't you think ALPA wants to see RJ payscales increase significantly? Do think ALPA wants to see A320s and 737s parked and replaced by RJs? Not a chance. Your right, ALPA is in a quagmeir, however, at the end of the day they will do what is best for them.

Additionally, I would guess the vast majority of regional pilots support additional scope provisions. Perhaps the few that have no aspirations to pursue a major airline career have a DFR case.