It's Official: USAirways Wants American

[Flybywire44]

Time will tell, but there is no incentive for APA to embrace Nicolai.

It's very easy. US positions to aquire AA, and tells the East and West that if they don't merge the lists the way the NIC award was supposed to do, then they will operate AA seperately, (just like the East and West are done now---staying on their own planes), and only give the AA guys the raise. Take it or leave it. If they want a 30% raise, they will do it. If not and they want to continue to be babies and stubborn, then they can vote no. Then, when the APA tries to get a vote for a union, and the Westies overwhelmingly agree to vote USAPA out, the East guys will be left holding the bag.

Judge Silver will be issuing a ruling shortly, and everyone knows the Easties went around a binding award. It's just obvious. So, a lot is also riding on Judge Silver. I suspect there will be another round of Binding Arbitration, but after the NIC award is presented as the US list.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

OYS, it seems your position is that US Air management will leverage "a take it or leave it" 30% pay raise in order to impose Nic on the whole company. What is management's incentive in leveraging Nic on APA in this way? What if APA does not want it? I ask because APA has not mentioned CLI specifics yet. Is this what Leo is advertising or is this your personal aside?

APA has not commented on Nic at all. Notes from recent APA/AAA meetings and an APA email have only stated:

Russ stated that the integration would be painful but then went on to
say that McCaskill-Bond would apply and the retirement demographics
would be favorable to us. (I guess the US Air guys are older than us)

As far as representation goes it will be APA, the NMB is ready to move
on that as soon as we get approval and there most likely won’t be a
vote because it will be a “friendly” takeover from USAPA.

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was
done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once
and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be
a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will
stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.

Expedited arbitration for seniority (DAL/NWA percentile)

Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)

Time will tell, but there may not be any incentive for APA to embrace Nicolai. AAA management may not care about what SLI process is chosen; Parker need only understand the liability of recognizing any SLI outcome.

 

[ASADFW7]

Historically we all know there are unresolved legal matters regarding US Airways, please keep the hit and run type posts to a minimum as this process plays out. Please no excessive personal sideways discussion on current news and industry events. This is hard to moderate, but the intent is to keep good information and discussion going, and sideways conversations from taking over hot topics. Thank you for your consideration.

 

[IBNAV8R]

It's very easy. US positions to aquire AA, and tells the East and West that if they don't merge the lists the way the NIC award was supposed to do, then they will operate AA seperately, (just like the East and West are done now---staying on their own planes), and only give the AA guys the raise. Take it or leave it. If they want a 30% raise, they will do it. If not and they want to continue to be babies and stubborn, then they can vote no. Then, when the APA tries to get a vote for a union, and the Westies overwhelmingly agree to vote USAPA out, the East guys will be left holding the bag.

Judge Silver will be issuing a ruling shortly, and everyone knows the Easties went around a binding award. It's just obvious. So, a lot is also riding on Judge Silver. I suspect there will be another round of Binding Arbitration, but after the NIC award is presented as the US list.

Even if they are operated separately (like west/east), the much larger APA (along with the Westies) will push for a single bargaining agent. In this case, the Nic award could be forced. It is also quite plausible that the new majority of voters might view Nic as unfairly favorable to the easties.

Methinks poetic justice is about to be served.

 

[B-atch]

Even if they are operated separately (like west/east), the much larger APA (along with the Westies) will push for a single bargaining agent. In this case, the Nic award could be forced. It is also quite plausible that the new majority of voters might view Nic as unfairly favorable to the easties.

Methinks poetic justice is about to be served.

????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[abefly]

All US Airways management cares about is getting the American deal done. They have said from they begining they will remain neutral on the seniority issue (even though we know thats not true). Doug Parker doesn't care what list is used. He just wants the mess to be over with.

That being said, Apa will vote on their contract in less than 60 days. That contract will be a significant improvement over what we have here on the east and west. We will have the same contract given to USAPA. Now USAPA can either agree to the contract, with NIC as section 22. Or they can continue their D.O.H. conquest.

Now I know you are saying,why will section 22 contain the NIC and not D.O.H. Answer is, it's the path of least resistance. If Parker uses the nic, there is no law suit from the west. East is not happy,but what can they do?

1. Cause a work action? ( no , sorry, federal injunction already in place to prevent that non-sense again)

2. Vote no on the contract

3. Vote yes and move on to get good wages for all and work with the West on the next seniority integration against a bigger more funded union.


So let's say that USAPA says hell no and tries to fight till the end.

Well here is a porttion of the TA from US Air and APA.

" APA agrees to file a single carrier petition with the National Mediation Board as soon as practicable after the effective date of the agreement."

So the day the APA pilots vote in the contract they petition the NMB for single carrier status. Given how many more APA pilots there are to US Air, they wouold simply rule with no vote.

And just like that POOOFFF, USAPA is gone.

Now do you really think the APA is going to continue to fund defending lawsuits to get the East pilots their DOH?

I think not. There will be no vote, we will all be on the same contract and we will go to mckaskill/bond 20 days mediation, then arbitration with a list in 90 days.

All I can say to the East pilots is for once in your career, do some research. Besides what USAPA tells you.

 

[ackattacker]

Flybywire above so far has one of the only *factual* posts on this thread. Most everything else is speculation driven by large doses of hope and dreams.

A few facts:

USAPA is constitutionally directed to seek DOH in any merger.
APA is constitutionally directed to seek a staple in any merger.

Both positions are likely at odds with McCaskill-Bond any hence basically irrelevant. Neither will happen, and it appears from the APA notes that management agrees.

The notes also point to an APA takeover, no surprise, but takeover does not imply or even permit APA imposed list. This talk about "forcing" the nic or any other method through force of numbers is thoroughly misinformed. McCaskill-bond legally requires negotiation between the affected groups followed by arbitration. ALPA TA remains in effect for LCC until new negotiated or arbitrated contract is ratified. Whether an arbitrator would use or discard the nic is a separate issue and lies in the realm of speculation at this point, I'm trying to deal with facts here.

CoC language in the old ALPA contract may be a big incentive for management to expedite the process and help ensure the new, joint contract is acceptable and ratifiable by US Air pilots. If no new contract there's a very strong legal argument that LCC pay reverts to pre-bankruptcy levels.

 

[abefly]

Flybywire above so far has one of the only *factual* posts on this thread. Most everything else is speculation driven by large doses of hope and dreams.

A few facts:

USAPA is constitutionally directed to seek DOH in any merger.
APA is constitutionally directed to seek a staple in any merger.

Both positions are likely at odds with McCaskill-Bond any hence basically irrelevant. Neither will happen, and it appears from the APA notes that management agrees.

The notes also point to an APA takeover, no surprise, but takeover does not imply or even permit APA imposed list. This talk about "forcing" the nic or any other method through force of numbers is thoroughly misinformed. McCaskill-bond legally requires negotiation between the affected groups followed by arbitration. APA notes point to 3-way negotiations. ALPA TA remains in effect for LCC until new negotiated or arbitrated contract is ratified. Whether an arbitrator would use or discard the nic is a separate issue and lies in the realm of speculation at this point, I'm trying to deal with facts here.

CoC language in the old ALPA contract may be a big incentive for management to expedite the process and help ensure the new, joint contract is acceptable and ratifiable by US Air pilots. If no new contract there's a very strong legal argument that LCC pay reverts to pre-bankruptcy levels.

WRONG...... APA notes talk about a 3 person arbitration panel. Not the three pilot groups. There are only two pilot groups. USAPA VS. APA.

When you voted in USAPA you took away the three pilot group option. We are all represented by USAPA.

and change of control won't matter. Given the amount of APA pilots over US Air pilots. They will simply use their numbers to vote in the contract for us. In essance they will USAPA, USAPA. Oh except they will be successful at it because USAPA has no grounds for a DFR.

I could see the lawsuit now. USAPA Sues apa over DFR. HAHA.

Good luck telling a judge that story when you just got a 60k dollar raise and all apa did was use a arbitrated agreed upon seniority list.

 

[ackattacker]

I changed my post above to reflect, you are correct I misread the notes regarding the 3 member arbitration.

However APA could impose a contract but they can't impose a list. The list used has to be negotiated or arbitrated. So they sit down and negotiate, and can't come to an agreement. It goes to arbitration. The new 3 member arbitration panel gets to decide the new list. I agree it is *likely* they would incorporate the nic since it was previously arbitrated. However that's still little more than an educated guess, it puts the ball entirely in their court.

 

[abefly]

I changed my post above to reflect, you are correct I misread the notes regarding the 3 member arbitration.

However APA could impose a contract but they can't impose a list. The list used has to be negotiated or arbitrated. So they sit down and negotiate, and can't come to an agreement. It goes to arbitration. The new 3 member arbitration panel gets to decide the new list. I agree it is *likely* they would incorporate the nic since it was previously arbitrated. However that's still little more than an educated guess, it puts the ball entirely in their court.

Once the contract is either voted in or imposed on the EAST/WEST, there will only be two lists. The nic and APA's list. This will not go to mediation or arbitration until we are all on one contract.

Doug learned from the last merger. It will go down just like DAL/NWA.

 

[ackattacker]

Also, I wonder what happens if USAPA and APA sit down to negotiate a new list, and USAPA presents a DOH list which puts AWA pilots on the bottom but protects the AA pilots relative seniority. AA has no incentive to use the nic so they agree. If USAPA and APA agree to a list, it never goes back to arbitration, and all that's left is a DFR lawsuit.

 

[abefly]

Also, I wonder what happens if USAPA and APA sit down to negotiate a new list, and USAPA presents a DOH list which puts AWA pilots on the bottom but protects the AA pilots relative seniority. AA has no incentive to use the nic so they agree. If USAPA and APA agree to a list, it never goes back to arbitration, and all that's left is a DFR lawsuit.

First of all , DO you really think the company would allow this?

Remember, they are a party to the suit as well. They are just as much involved as USAPA/APA.

Second of all,

APA is going to do everything they can to screw the East/West in the upcoming arbitration. They have the upper hand in this one. 120 Widebodies compared to 26. They make a lot more....should I keep going?

Trust me APA does not need a deal from USAPA to get relative seniority. They will get that or better without any help from USAPA!

It's time for the east and west to move past the NIC and start working together to get a good integration on the next merger.

Who do you want on the merger committee? The same guys who screamed DOH DOH DOH until they were blue in the face and were part of the reason the NIC is like it is?

Or the Guys on the AWA side who got the NIC???

 

[On Your Six]

Flybywire above so far has one of the only *factual* posts on this thread. Most everything else is speculation driven by large doses of hope and dreams.

A few facts:

USAPA is constitutionally directed to seek DOH in any merger.
APA is constitutionally directed to seek a staple in any merger.

Both positions are likely at odds with McCaskill-Bond any hence basically irrelevant. Neither will happen, and it appears from the APA notes that management agrees.

The notes also point to an APA takeover, no surprise, but takeover does not imply or even permit APA imposed list. This talk about "forcing" the nic or any other method through force of numbers is thoroughly misinformed. McCaskill-bond legally requires negotiation between the affected groups followed by arbitration. ALPA TA remains in effect for LCC until new negotiated or arbitrated contract is ratified. Whether an arbitrator would use or discard the nic is a separate issue and lies in the realm of speculation at this point, I'm trying to deal with facts here.

CoC language in the old ALPA contract may be a big incentive for management to expedite the process and help ensure the new, joint contract is acceptable and ratifiable by US Air pilots. If no new contract there's a very strong legal argument that LCC pay reverts to pre-bankruptcy levels.

USAPA was created because the Easties didn't like the NIC award, that was a BINDING AWARD. Don't give me the "USAPA is Constitutionally....BS..." If the merger happens, that union is GONE. GOOD BYE. Then they can shove their Constitution up their you know where. They are hiding from a binding award, plain and simple. THE TRUTH.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[On Your Six]

First of all , DO you really think the company would allow this?

Remember, they are a party to the suit as well. They are just as much involved as USAPA/APA.

Second of all,

APA is going to do everything they can to screw the East/West in the upcoming arbitration. They have the upper hand in this one. 120 Widebodies compared to 26. They make a lot more....should I keep going?

Trust me APA does not need a deal from USAPA to get relative seniority. They will get that or better without any help from USAPA!

It's time for the east and west to move past the NIC and start working together to get a good integration on the next merger.

Who do you want on the merger committee? The same guys who screamed DOH DOH DOH until they were blue in the face and were part of the reason the NIC is like it is?

Or the Guys on the AWA side who got the NIC???

The APA will do better, even though the judge will look at the fact that the APA was in BK and could have shrunk even more had USair not come in and helped. Overall, if it happens, the APA would have a larger piece of the pie since they are bigger and have more widebodies. But, before the process starts of any possible SLI between them, the USair side has to get the NIC award implemented, and then an SLI can begin with the APA. That is the key. The Easties will continue to try to slide away from it, but it will catch up.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[ASADFW7]

The last two posts are an excellent example of leaving a crap in a paper bag in someones brain bag. Though we encourage debate on flightinfo, telling a pilot group to shove it ... is not the type of communication that helps resolves issues or finds resolution in debates. Historically we all know that there are matters unsettled, telling people to shove it isn't exactly the type of direction many individual members who are seeking current information want to sort through.

 

[get2flyin]

The last two posts are an excellent example of leaving a crap in a paper bag in someones brain bag. Though we encourage debate on flightinfo, telling a pilot group to shove it ... is not the type of communication that helps resolves issues or finds resolution in debates. Historically we all know that there are matters unsettled, telling people to shove it isn't exactly the type of direction many individual members who are seeking current information want to sort through.

He's not always eloquent, but in this case OYS correct. Let's try this instead, "The truth is a tough pill for many on the East to swallow... but the throat doesn't seem to be how the pill will end up being administered."

 

[General Lee]

He's not always eloquent, but in this case OYS correct. Let's try this instead, "The truth is a tough pill for many on the East to swallow... but the throat doesn't seem to be how the pill will end up being administered."

Instead, ASADFW7 wants to control debate, instead of letting it flourish. I think it is disgusting, and one reason I rarely post anymore. I don't see anything wrong with what OYS was saying, and the problem may be guilt associated with one group treating another like dirt. Maybe ASADFW7 feels this guilt himself. He gives OYS time off because HE WAS CORRECT. The owner needs to be briefed on this careless moderating.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Scoot 11]

Instead, ASADFW7 wants to control debate, instead of letting it flourish. I think it is disgusting, and one reason I rarely post anymore. I don't see anything wrong with what OYS was saying, and the problem may be guilt associated with one group treating another like dirt. Maybe ASADFW7 feels this guilt himself. He gives OYS time off because HE WAS CORRECT. The owner needs to be briefed on this careless moderating.


Bye Bye---General Lee

While I could care less who got time of for what, I agree...The moderation (or over moderating) on this site is pathetic. Try to say something negative about SW, and you'll get the warning. I've seen several posts of "threatening" or "name calling" in nature and they've gone unchecked! I believe it's time for the moderator to step down!

 

[General Lee]

While I could care less who got time of for what, I agree...The moderation (or over moderating) on this site is pathetic. Try to say something negative about SW, and you'll get the warning. I've seen several posts of "threatening" or "name calling" in nature and they've gone unchecked! I believe it's time for the moderator to step down!

I agree. There is supposed to be some entertainment value to this site, and it used to be like that all the time. Sure, threats or foul language should not be tollerated, but opinions differing from the mods? Really? Way over the line. He needs to step down. He is "holding on too tight...."


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[General Lee]

USAPA was created because the Easties didn't like the NIC award, that was a BINDING AWARD. Don't give me the "USAPA is Constitutionally....BS..." If the merger happens, that union is GONE. GOOD BYE. Then they can shove their Constitution up their you know where. They are hiding from a binding award, plain and simple. THE TRUTH.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

This is why he was banned? REALLY???? Because he said they could shove their Bylaws up their "you know where?" The whole USAPA union was created to hurt the America West guys because the others didn't want to abide by a binding award. That sounds like the truth, to almost everyone. Yet OYS gets banned. Way too much power given to ASADFW7. Abuse of power.


And OYS sent me ASADFW7's message to him on the "infraction":


"Can you dial down the finger pointing in this case? I would like for members who work for both companies to come and debate issues, without being told to shove it up their......thank you"



No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.




Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

I changed my post above to reflect, you are correct I misread the notes regarding the 3 member arbitration.

However APA could impose a contract but they can't impose a list. The list used has to be negotiated or arbitrated. So they sit down and negotiate, and can't come to an agreement. It goes to arbitration. The new 3 member arbitration panel gets to decide the new list. I agree it is *likely* they would incorporate the nic since it was previously arbitrated. However that's still little more than an educated guess, it puts the ball entirely in their court.

There are only two legal unions but there are three seniority lists that must be merged. One union must represent two of those lists and of course show the Nic (and describe it legally in the same manner that the 9th did). It would be a gross missrepresentation of fact to present the Nic as a present construction of the USAir system seniority.

 

[abefly]

There are only two legal unions but there are three seniority lists that must be merged. One union must represent two of those lists and of course show the Nic (and describe it legally in the same manner that the 9th did). It would be a gross missrepresentation of fact to present the Nic as a present construction of the USAir system seniority.

You still are not getting how this is going to play out are you.

Ok, one more time.

EAST and WEST will be combined on one Contract before there is any mediation or arbitration with American. So there will only be one list, the NIC, that will be presented to the Arbitrator to be merged with the American List.


That is how Doug has gotten around USAPA and their non-sense.


Get it now?

If the EAST votes no on the contract, then DOUG will wait until APA files for single carrier status. ONce single carrier status is implemented the combined contract will be set out for vote to all pilots. Do you think the 2500 East pilots voting no for section 22 will win?

Doug has his cards in place to end this with or without imput from the East, or West for that matter. The East is going to be beat at their own numbers game. Beautiful if you ask me.

 

[waveflyer]

You sir are not really a pilot if you believe there is any collective honor among union members. :lol: well you can say it but you cannot believe it, not if you have ever paid ALPA dues. :lol:

Unions are us. Unions are always what we make them and I have no room for cynics. But good try.

 

[ackattacker]

EAST and WEST will be combined on one Contract before there is any mediation or arbitration with American. So there will only be one list, the NIC, that will be presented to the Arbitrator to be merged with the American List.

You keep saying this but haven't provided any reference or evidence. I'm prepared to believe you but not just because you say so. Even if what you say is true, in order to be combined on one Contract US Air pilots would have to VOTE for that contract. You think they're going to vote for the nic?

If they vote no then the whole thing goes to negotiation or arbitration with all 3 seniority lists still intact.

 

[abefly]

You keep saying this but haven't provided any reference or evidence. I'm prepared to believe you but not just because you say so. Even if what you say is true, in order to be combined on one Contract US Air pilots would have to VOTE for that contract. You think they're going to vote for the nic?

If they vote no then the whole thing goes to negotiation or arbitration with all 3 seniority lists still intact.

Ok, I have a reference for you,

Prior to the NIC, the east and west both had their own MEC's under ALPA. Both the east and west had seperate ratification for a new contract. Each side had their own vote on a new contract. If one side voted no, then the contract didn't pass.

Once the Nic came out the East did not like the outcome so they started usapa. They knew they out voted the West by 2 to 1. So by petitiioning the NMB for single carrier status they were able to take away the voting rights of the west. Now there is no seperate ratification. All pilots East and West are represented by USAPA. So anytime there is a vote, the EAST has the numbers to always win ( which they have done on every vote for 5 years)

Now how this relates to APA.

Once APA votes in their contract under the merged American, Doug states you will immediately petition the NMB for single carrier status. Just like USAPA did.

This way their will be one union representing the pilot group. APA will represent all of us. So APA will be on their newly voted in contract and east west will be on their seperate old contracts. 2004 loa93

Then the same contract American voted in will be put out to vote again to all pilots. It will contain language that has section 22 as the nic for US Airways and the APA list for American, with a arbitrated seniority list to be determined within 90 days of ratification by Mckaskill/Bond.

This will be sent out to the members for ratification.

8000 plus American Pilots, 1500 west Pilots , 2500 East pilots (rough estimates of course)

So 9500 Pilots against 2500. What do you think will happen?

American doesn't give a crap what list is on section 22 for US Airways. They know they will face no legal issues if it is the NIC. And the Nic will be the quickest way to more money in their pockets.

So the single contract will be in place BEFORE any Arbitration for seniority

Do you understand now?

 

[Crzipilot]

And if APA doesn't like NIC?

 

[abefly]

And if APA doesn't like NIC?

Why do they care?

They only care how the merged APA ?US Air list looks. They don't care what order the list is on the US Air side.

The simple fact is if they vote in the nic, they face no liability.

If they go against the nic, APA will be found guilty of violating their Duty of Fair representation to the west.

Their is no benefit to them allowing anything other than the NIC.

 

[General Lee]

And if APA doesn't like NIC?

They may not. They may like the OLDER USAir guys all at the top, so if they merge and the older USAir pilots retire, the APA pilots might move up the combined list faster. But, I would think DP would see that before that happens, he may have to do the Nic award, and that is one reason he hasn't done anything yet. He is awaiting the Silver decision to see what to do. If he had approved of the East/USAPA list, he would have said so already. He hasn't done anything, partly because he is saving money, and partly because he probably doesn't want to get sued.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[abefly]

They may not. They may like the OLDER USAir guys all at the top, so if they merge and the older USAir pilots retire, the APA pilots might move up the combined list faster. But, I would think DP would see that before that happens, he may have to do the Nic award, and that is one reason he hasn't done anything yet. He is awaiting the Silver decision to see what to do. If he had approved of the East/USAPA list, he would have said so already. He hasn't done anything, partly because he is saving money, and partly because he probably doesn't want to get sued.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Doug and the boys want to remain neutral. Or so they say.

 

[Tweaker]

Where do I sign?

 

[Crzipilot]

Why do they care?

They only care how the merged APA ?US Air list looks. They don't care what order the list is on the US Air side.

The simple fact is if they vote in the nic, they face no liability.

If they go against the nic, APA will be found guilty of violating their Duty of Fair representation to the west.

Their is no benefit to them allowing anything other than the NIC.

You are assuming here that single carrier is established prior to the SLI. What prevents DP and SK and APA going all gangsta on ya, and finally meeting you in that seedy hotel for a week and not so much negotiating as opposed to dictating to the two sides. Ok boys, here is what is going to happen, and here is how it's gonna look. He's got a New Pretty Dance partner, and he's throwing the two scags he's been hooking up a bone...