It's Official: USAirways Wants American

[Turtle21]

Unions are us. Unions are always what we make them and I have no room for cynics. But good try.

Indeed they are, and that is exactly why there is no such thing as collective honor when the money is at stake. For proof, one need not look beyond the disparity of pay across the members of a figment "union", having members who all perform the same skilled labor, in the glorious facade called a "brotherhood", with leaders eating caviar and crumpets while rallying "food stamp pilots" against the largesse of the so-called greedy management.

Shout "for collective honor" and pass the plate to collect some more dues. :lol:

 

[St. Nic]

This is why he was banned? REALLY???? Because he said they could shove their Bylaws up their "you know where?" The whole USAPA union was created to hurt the America West guys because the others didn't want to abide by a binding award. That sounds like the truth, to almost everyone. Yet OYS gets banned. Way too much power given to ASADFW7. Abuse of power.


And OYS sent me ASADFW7's message to him on the "infraction":


"Can you dial down the finger pointing in this case? I would like for members who work for both companies to come and debate issues, without being told to shove it up their......thank you"
Bye Bye---General Lee

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

 

[steveg]

Ah oh, someone let the village idiot out again!

 

[ackattacker]

Ok, I have a reference for you,

.........

Do you understand now?

No, not at all, and I don't see any reference just a story. And references to the AWA/USAir non-merger are disingenuous because that was covered under ALPA merger policy not McCaskill-Bond so it's not the same legal ground.

Assuming it goes down as you say, APA petitions for single carrier status and puts a contract out for ratification. APA cannot just submit any random LCC seniority list they want to start from. If they could, they'd just put whatever was most convenient for them. Which, quite frankly, wouldn't be nic. When it goes to negotiations, McCaskill-Bond specifically calls for the two Unions to negotiate. You can't disband USAPA and then do whatever you want, that's what the McCaskill-Bond amendment was specifically created to prevent. That means USAPA and APA sit down at some point. You can bet USAPA's list which they submit to the negotiations wouldn't be the nic either. I could see an arbitrator starting from the nic if/when it comes to that, but I don't see how APA or the company could impose it.

 

[vetrider]

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

Baaaaaahhhhh ha ha ha. Uh huh.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

 

[charlie2]

Ok so how would this go down. The TA in the east west merger says binding arbittation with the list being implimented on ratification of a contract. If there were to be a merger with AA would the nic award survive? I don't think it would due to the language in the TA because there woudn't be a ratified contract with AWA and us eastinfecti
ons.o

 

[abefly]

No, not at all, and I don't see any reference just a story. And references to the AWA/USAir non-merger are disingenuous because that was covered under ALPA merger policy not McCaskill-Bond so it's not the same legal ground.

Assuming it goes down as you say, APA petitions for single carrier status and puts a contract out for ratification. APA cannot just submit any random LCC seniority list they want to start from.

Isn't that what USAPA is doing with their D.O.H List?

If they could, they'd just put whatever was most convenient for them. Which, quite frankly, wouldn't be nic. When it goes to negotiations, McCaskill-Bond specifically calls for the two Unions to negotiate.

No, It calls for 20 days of Mediation, then arbitration with a list in no more than 90 days.


You can't disband USAPA and then do whatever you want,

Again, isn't that what USAPA did to Alpa?

that's what the McCaskill-Bond amendment was specifically created to prevent.

No, it was desigigned to prevent one group from taking advantage of another group. Ex, TWA American, and What US Air East has been trying to do, Unsuccessfully, to the west for five years.




That means USAPA and APA sit down at some point. You can bet USAPA's list which they submit to the negotiations wouldn't be the nic either. I could see an arbitrator starting from the nic if/when it comes to that, but I don't see how APA or the company could impose it.

The NIC will be the list no matter how you look at it. You can keep trying to come up with dream ideas on how to make it so, But the law is not on your side.

 

[abefly]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Exactly. The only list accepted by US Air management is the Nicolau Award. When APA is the barganing agent for all pilots there will be a vote for a single contract for all pilots. Section 22 will contain language for the nic and americans current list with Mcaskill-bond to take place after ratification.

USAPa is done. APA is in the drivers seat now. No seperate ratification, no voice. Just take it.

 

[abefly]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Another answer......

In order to negotiate with American and three seniority lists as you speak of, there would need to be a modification to our current transition agreement. Any attempt to a modification of our current transition agrrement would be yet another DFR suit against USAPA. With collusion from US Air management. Which would lead to a very easy injunction.

Like it or not, the NIC is the list.

 

[IBNAV8R]

OTOH, USAir doesn't have to worry about integration. Either they will continue lauging themselves to the bank as pilots feud it out. When they tire of running three separate companies, they'll just wind down part of the operation that is most troublesome and least profitable.

What part of "binding" do people not understand?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list.

It's on an un-implemented list. It's official in that it complied with the TA and was accepted and no other list has.

Remember, you don't get to vote on the list. You only get to vote on a contract which will implement the list - in this case the Nic.

 

[FR8mastr]

Lets try this...

As of this moment there are 3 list in action at Airways This is undisputed.

Nic can only happen if there were a combined contract, (all other issues aside) there is not, hence 3 lists.

9th has ruled DFR not ripe as no harm has yet been done.

So the only official ratified lists that are CURRENTLY at play can be used in any official new transaction.

With the above in mind, all the rest is opinion.

If this deal goes down, they will used a list based mostly on DOH with fences, as this is the way American will want it. I know its hard to believe, but the APA really doesn't care about East or West.

Then if a group of pilots still feel they have be slighted, they would then be able to resume court proceedings in an attempt to prove how they have been wronged. (as per the 9th)

Yes USAPA will give way to the APA, but after the deal is done and....
There is a transition agreement of some kind, just like now to govern during the merging process.

Unlike the East West deal, if this one proceeds, management will have their ducks in a row prior to signing.

That is why you have seen Airways management courting the APA, and the APA agreeing to terms.

I know this won't sit well with all you East bashers, but there it is.

Yes there could be subtle differences, but nothing major, as the new merger laws will prevent the railroading some seem to crave so desperately.

No matter how it may go down, there is little any of us with a flag on the tail can do about it.

 

[JoeMuch]

"No matter how it may go down, there is little any of us with a flag on the tail can do about it."

Thank goodness!

 

[abefly]

Lets try this...

As of this moment there are 3 list in action at Airways This is undisputed.

Nic can only happen if there were a combined contract, (all other issues aside) there is not, hence 3 lists.

9th has ruled DFR not ripe as no harm has yet been done.

So the only official ratified lists that are CURRENTLY at play can be used in any official new transaction.

With the above in mind, all the rest is opinion.

If this deal goes down, they will used a list based mostly on DOH with fences, as this is the way American will want it. I know its hard to believe, but the APA really doesn't care about East or West.

Then if a group of pilots still feel they have be slighted, they would then be able to resume court proceedings in an attempt to prove how they have been wronged. (as per the 9th)

Yes USAPA will give way to the APA, but after the deal is done and....
There is a transition agreement of some kind, just like now to govern during the merging process.

Unlike the East West deal, if this one proceeds, management will have their ducks in a row prior to signing.

That is why you have seen Airways management courting the APA, and the APA agreeing to terms.

I know this won't sit well with all you East bashers, but there it is.

Yes there could be subtle differences, but nothing major, as the new merger laws will prevent the railroading some seem to crave so desperately.

No matter how it may go down, there is little any of us with a flag on the tail can do about it.

What are you smoking??? I really have no idea how you guys come uo with this stuff. I give up.

 

[General Lee]

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

Crossed which line? The dotted line your MEC Chair signed on for the BINDING ARBITRATION? You forgot about that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sean67]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Yep! I agree

 

[Crzipilot]

It's easy. The west has been told you can't file DFR until there is an actual list in place and all the terms surrounding it before you can debate if DFR has been broken.

So in the West dream scenerio lets flip it around. Dougie and APA want it to go through. APA looks at best SLI for their guys, and split the baby between NIC and DOH, in effect trying to appease both sides.

They finish negotiations for their contract and put SLI proposal in there with a note. Take sec. 22 or else. Vote it in, and viola you got a done deal.

Remember the 9th stated, just because the Nic isn't used does not automatically constitute a DFR...........what's that mean?

 

[dollacrackho]

Why not just straight doh keep 7 year fences for east and west and then just combine all three lists in 7 years.

 

[abefly]

It's easy. The west has been told you can't file DFR until there is an actual list in place and all the terms surrounding it before you can debate if DFR has been broken.

So in the West dream scenerio lets flip it around. Dougie and APA want it to go through. APA looks at best SLI for their guys, and split the baby between NIC and DOH, in effect trying to appease both sides.


There are no Redo's. The list is the list. Once you took away the AWA MEC you took away any chances of a compromise.

They finish negotiations for their contract and put SLI proposal in there with a note. Take sec. 22 or else. Vote it in, and viola you got a done deal.

Remember the 9th stated, just because the Nic isn't used does not automatically constitute a DFR...........what's that mean?

As a West Pilot I hope that happens. That is what we call Collusion. If US Air management were to agree to anything other than the list they accepted via the terms of the transition agreement, they will be sued by AOL and lose. They filed the DJ case so that a judge can do the dirty work for them.

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

What the ninth was hinting at was that in some way if the west were compensated at a higher rate than the EAST for the NIC not being used, then it might not be a DFR. But thats not going to happen.

 

[B-atch]

As a West Pilot I hope that happens. That is what we call Collusion. If US Air management were to agree to anything other than the list they accepted via the terms of the transition agreement, they will be sued by AOL and lose. They filed the DJ case so that a judge can do the dirty work for them.

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

What the ninth was hinting at was that in some way if the west were compensated at a higher rate than the EAST for the NIC not being used, then it might not be a DFR. But thats not going to happen.

And this is your EXPERT opinion? This train wreck has been in litigation for 5 years with no definite outcome in sight, but yet you and your kind come on these boards and attempt to impose such beliefs on all that lurk here..Give it a break The nic faithful are desperate and approaching CULT status. What will you do if nic dies on the vine? Have the west considered an alternative? What is the west plan B? Is it still all or nothing?

 

[j-3]

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

From:
APA DFW Local Update (Today's DFW Domicile Meeting): April 20, 2012

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.

After Dave left it was back to Q&A with Rusty and Russ and I asked Rusty about the seniority merge and the Nicolau award. Dave had basically said it was not a factor but Rusty wasn’t sure said the lawyers had differing opinions on it but said it should come out to where if you are at the 50 percentile point on your fleet your combined seniority number would put you at that place. Said that this along with seat pay protection might solve the Supp CC problem but if not then it would be decided by another 3 person panel.

 

[General Lee]

And this is your EXPERT opinion? This train wreck has been in litigation for 5 years with no definite outcome in sight, but yet you and your kind come on these boards and attempt to impose such beliefs on all that lurk here..Give it a break The nic faithful are desperate and approaching CULT status. What will you do if nic dies on the vine? Have the west considered an alternative? What is the west plan B? Is it still all or nothing?

I would think they would go for all or nothing. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. The Nic award was a legal, binding award. That should mean something.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[B-atch]

Something to think about. This merger has a real good chance of happening. The BIG money people want it. If the seniority issue is not resolved, we might see a fragmentation in some form. PHX is a low yield market, too close to LAX, the new AA HQ will remain in DFW, thereby closing LCC HQ in Tempe. Doug and the APA will follow the best case scenario for ALL involved. If the AOL crowd continues with their all or nothing mantra, they will instantly become The Weakest link. Don't think for a second that this seniority issue will slow this train. Get on board or be left at the platform!!
Also, guess who brings the largest pilot attrition to this merger? I'll give a hint. East of the river!

 

[doh]

Since everyone else is prognosticating, I'll give it a shot too. Dougie wants the threat of a lawsuit to go away. American pilots don't give a shiv about east/west. Dougie negotiates the NIC into his agreement. 9,000 American votes later you get a ratified joint contract including the NIC. I know there's a bunch of steps in between, but basically, American has the votes to stick whatever they want into the joint CBA and the rest of you can lump it. Majority rules as St. Nic likes to say.

 

[Crzipilot]

Then you have 1/3 of an airline pissed, with an injunction no longer in force (I.E. no more USAPA, who's the injunction against?)

The NIC has not and most likely will not be memorialized in a contract between east and west. Could it be in Sect 22 of the APA agreement? Possible, but then the APA would be looking at using the NIC as the basis of integrating NIC and AA. I have a sneaky feeling that APA would fair far better in a 3 way. East West and AA combination than AA and NIC.

As to the claim on colusion? Really? Three out of 4 parties agree on the way to integrate a list (which really the 4th party won't be invited anyways) and they put THAT out for a membership vote, it gets voted in. I.E. APA USAPA and MGMT

Then you will have the 1200 member strong LOA filing a DFR against a 13k pilot group. Ok.

 

[B-atch]

Since everyone else is prognosticating, I'll give it a shot too. Dougie wants the threat of a lawsuit to go away. American pilots don't give a shiv about east/west. Dougie negotiates the NIC into his agreement. 9,000 American votes later you get a ratified joint contract including the NIC. I know there's a bunch of steps in between, but basically, American has the votes to stick whatever they want into the joint CBA and the rest of you can lump it. Majority rules as St. Nic likes to say.

You are ASSUMING that the APA favors the nic....
Who has the higher attrition?

 

[abefly]

You are ASSUMING that the APA favors the nic....
Who has the higher attrition?

It doesn't matter what APA, Management, or East Favors. The fact of the matter is there was an agreed upon transition agreement in place. Then an arbitrated seniority list was accepted by management under the terms of that agreement. Any modification to the transition agreement to favor one group over another, regardless of size, would result in a union failing to fairly represent all of their members equally.


Here is the company's opening brief in the DJ case:

As set forth in US Airways’ opening brief (​

​

​

​

see Doc. No. 156 at 13:23-14:8) and its response (see Doc. No. 164 at 7:2-10:16), the case law makes clear that the Transition Agreement is a binding collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”) between US Airways and its pilots, and the pilots’ selection of a new collective bargaining representative did
not affect the binding nature of their pre-existing CBAs. Indeed, even USAPA has admitted to another federal court that “[a]s the certified, exclusive bargaining representative of the now merged US Airways pilots, USAPA became a party to the East CBA and West CBA . . . .” (US Airline Pilots Ass’n v. US Airways, Inc., et al., Case 1:11-
cv-02579-ARR-SMG (E.D.N.Y.) (Amended Compl. [Doc. No. 12] ¶ 22 (attached hereto as Exhibit A).) That principle is equally applicable in this case. That said, as also noted in US Airways’ prior briefs, the case law makes clear that either party can propose amendments to the binding Transition Agreement pursuant to the
terms of that Agreement and Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act – so long as the amendments are consistent with USAPA’s DFR to the West Pilots. The question to be resolved by this Court is whether the amendment to the Transition Agreement that USAPA is constitutionally bound to require is, or is not, consistent with its DFR.

APA will be bound by all the prior agreements, just as USAPA is. Including the Injunction against the EAST's Illegal work action.

They know this. The list will be the NIC. Wanna Bet on it?​

 

[abefly]

Something to think about. This merger has a real good chance of happening. The BIG money people want it. If the seniority issue is not resolved, we might see a fragmentation in some form. PHX is a low yield market, too close to LAX, the new AA HQ will remain in DFW, thereby closing LCC HQ in Tempe. Doug and the APA will follow the best case scenario for ALL involved. If the AOL crowd continues with their all or nothing mantra, they will instantly become The Weakest link. Don't think for a second that this seniority issue will slow this train. Get on board or be left at the platform!!
Also, guess who brings the largest pilot attrition to this merger? I'll give a hint. East of the river!

The seniority issue will not even be a bump. It has been decided. If judge Silber doesn't rule before single carrier status is decided, the APA will be the conductor of the train. And they will not let the brain children at USAPA interfere in this transaction. They know the path of least resistance is the NIC. They implement that, NO LAWSUITS. They don't, AOL and the west pilots get an injunction to stop the whole show. Sorry Easties, your days are numbered.

 

[abefly]

From:
APA DFW Local Update (Today's DFW Domicile Meeting): April 20, 2012

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.


Again you are confusing the 3 person panel. It is a panel that conducts the Mediation and then Arbitration. NOT three different pilot groups.

After Dave left it was back to Q&A with Rusty and Russ and I asked Rusty about the seniority merge and the Nicolau award. Dave had basically said it was not a factor but Rusty wasn’t sure said the lawyers had differing opinions on it but said it should come out to where if you are at the 50 percentile point on your fleet your combined seniority number would put you at that place. Said that this along with seat pay protection might solve the Supp CC problem but if not then it would be decided by another 3 person panel.

Of course lawyers have difference of opinions, lawyers will tell you anything you want to hear to get paid. Look at SEHAM. He made millions off the EAST. And what did that get you. Zero, USapa hasd not won a single suit in 5 years!!!!