It's Official: USAirways Wants American

[Turtle21]

Unions are us. Unions are always what we make them and I have no room for cynics. But good try.

Indeed they are, and that is exactly why there is no such thing as collective honor when the money is at stake. For proof, one need not look beyond the disparity of pay across the members of a figment "union", having members who all perform the same skilled labor, in the glorious facade called a "brotherhood", with leaders eating caviar and crumpets while rallying "food stamp pilots" against the largesse of the so-called greedy management.

Shout "for collective honor" and pass the plate to collect some more dues. :lol:

 

[St. Nic]

This is why he was banned? REALLY???? Because he said they could shove their Bylaws up their "you know where?" The whole USAPA union was created to hurt the America West guys because the others didn't want to abide by a binding award. That sounds like the truth, to almost everyone. Yet OYS gets banned. Way too much power given to ASADFW7. Abuse of power.


And OYS sent me ASADFW7's message to him on the "infraction":


"Can you dial down the finger pointing in this case? I would like for members who work for both companies to come and debate issues, without being told to shove it up their......thank you"
Bye Bye---General Lee

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

 

[steveg]

Ah oh, someone let the village idiot out again!

 

[ackattacker]

Ok, I have a reference for you,

.........

Do you understand now?

No, not at all, and I don't see any reference just a story. And references to the AWA/USAir non-merger are disingenuous because that was covered under ALPA merger policy not McCaskill-Bond so it's not the same legal ground.

Assuming it goes down as you say, APA petitions for single carrier status and puts a contract out for ratification. APA cannot just submit any random LCC seniority list they want to start from. If they could, they'd just put whatever was most convenient for them. Which, quite frankly, wouldn't be nic. When it goes to negotiations, McCaskill-Bond specifically calls for the two Unions to negotiate. You can't disband USAPA and then do whatever you want, that's what the McCaskill-Bond amendment was specifically created to prevent. That means USAPA and APA sit down at some point. You can bet USAPA's list which they submit to the negotiations wouldn't be the nic either. I could see an arbitrator starting from the nic if/when it comes to that, but I don't see how APA or the company could impose it.

 

[vetrider]

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

Baaaaaahhhhh ha ha ha. Uh huh.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

 

[charlie2]

Ok so how would this go down. The TA in the east west merger says binding arbittation with the list being implimented on ratification of a contract. If there were to be a merger with AA would the nic award survive? I don't think it would due to the language in the TA because there woudn't be a ratified contract with AWA and us eastinfecti
ons.o

 

[abefly]

No, not at all, and I don't see any reference just a story. And references to the AWA/USAir non-merger are disingenuous because that was covered under ALPA merger policy not McCaskill-Bond so it's not the same legal ground.

Assuming it goes down as you say, APA petitions for single carrier status and puts a contract out for ratification. APA cannot just submit any random LCC seniority list they want to start from.

Isn't that what USAPA is doing with their D.O.H List?

If they could, they'd just put whatever was most convenient for them. Which, quite frankly, wouldn't be nic. When it goes to negotiations, McCaskill-Bond specifically calls for the two Unions to negotiate.

No, It calls for 20 days of Mediation, then arbitration with a list in no more than 90 days.


You can't disband USAPA and then do whatever you want,

Again, isn't that what USAPA did to Alpa?

that's what the McCaskill-Bond amendment was specifically created to prevent.

No, it was desigigned to prevent one group from taking advantage of another group. Ex, TWA American, and What US Air East has been trying to do, Unsuccessfully, to the west for five years.




That means USAPA and APA sit down at some point. You can bet USAPA's list which they submit to the negotiations wouldn't be the nic either. I could see an arbitrator starting from the nic if/when it comes to that, but I don't see how APA or the company could impose it.

The NIC will be the list no matter how you look at it. You can keep trying to come up with dream ideas on how to make it so, But the law is not on your side.

 

[abefly]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Exactly. The only list accepted by US Air management is the Nicolau Award. When APA is the barganing agent for all pilots there will be a vote for a single contract for all pilots. Section 22 will contain language for the nic and americans current list with Mcaskill-bond to take place after ratification.

USAPa is done. APA is in the drivers seat now. No seperate ratification, no voice. Just take it.

 

[abefly]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Another answer......

In order to negotiate with American and three seniority lists as you speak of, there would need to be a modification to our current transition agreement. Any attempt to a modification of our current transition agrrement would be yet another DFR suit against USAPA. With collusion from US Air management. Which would lead to a very easy injunction.

Like it or not, the NIC is the list.

 

[IBNAV8R]

OTOH, USAir doesn't have to worry about integration. Either they will continue lauging themselves to the bank as pilots feud it out. When they tire of running three separate companies, they'll just wind down part of the operation that is most troublesome and least profitable.

What part of "binding" do people not understand?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list.

It's on an un-implemented list. It's official in that it complied with the TA and was accepted and no other list has.

Remember, you don't get to vote on the list. You only get to vote on a contract which will implement the list - in this case the Nic.

 

[FR8mastr]

Lets try this...

As of this moment there are 3 list in action at Airways This is undisputed.

Nic can only happen if there were a combined contract, (all other issues aside) there is not, hence 3 lists.

9th has ruled DFR not ripe as no harm has yet been done.

So the only official ratified lists that are CURRENTLY at play can be used in any official new transaction.

With the above in mind, all the rest is opinion.

If this deal goes down, they will used a list based mostly on DOH with fences, as this is the way American will want it. I know its hard to believe, but the APA really doesn't care about East or West.

Then if a group of pilots still feel they have be slighted, they would then be able to resume court proceedings in an attempt to prove how they have been wronged. (as per the 9th)

Yes USAPA will give way to the APA, but after the deal is done and....
There is a transition agreement of some kind, just like now to govern during the merging process.

Unlike the East West deal, if this one proceeds, management will have their ducks in a row prior to signing.

That is why you have seen Airways management courting the APA, and the APA agreeing to terms.

I know this won't sit well with all you East bashers, but there it is.

Yes there could be subtle differences, but nothing major, as the new merger laws will prevent the railroading some seem to crave so desperately.

No matter how it may go down, there is little any of us with a flag on the tail can do about it.

 

[JoeMuch]

"No matter how it may go down, there is little any of us with a flag on the tail can do about it."

Thank goodness!

 

[abefly]

Lets try this...

As of this moment there are 3 list in action at Airways This is undisputed.

Nic can only happen if there were a combined contract, (all other issues aside) there is not, hence 3 lists.

9th has ruled DFR not ripe as no harm has yet been done.

So the only official ratified lists that are CURRENTLY at play can be used in any official new transaction.

With the above in mind, all the rest is opinion.

If this deal goes down, they will used a list based mostly on DOH with fences, as this is the way American will want it. I know its hard to believe, but the APA really doesn't care about East or West.

Then if a group of pilots still feel they have be slighted, they would then be able to resume court proceedings in an attempt to prove how they have been wronged. (as per the 9th)

Yes USAPA will give way to the APA, but after the deal is done and....
There is a transition agreement of some kind, just like now to govern during the merging process.

Unlike the East West deal, if this one proceeds, management will have their ducks in a row prior to signing.

That is why you have seen Airways management courting the APA, and the APA agreeing to terms.

I know this won't sit well with all you East bashers, but there it is.

Yes there could be subtle differences, but nothing major, as the new merger laws will prevent the railroading some seem to crave so desperately.

No matter how it may go down, there is little any of us with a flag on the tail can do about it.

What are you smoking??? I really have no idea how you guys come uo with this stuff. I give up.

 

[General Lee]

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

Crossed which line? The dotted line your MEC Chair signed on for the BINDING ARBITRATION? You forgot about that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sean67]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Yep! I agree

 

[Crzipilot]

It's easy. The west has been told you can't file DFR until there is an actual list in place and all the terms surrounding it before you can debate if DFR has been broken.

So in the West dream scenerio lets flip it around. Dougie and APA want it to go through. APA looks at best SLI for their guys, and split the baby between NIC and DOH, in effect trying to appease both sides.

They finish negotiations for their contract and put SLI proposal in there with a note. Take sec. 22 or else. Vote it in, and viola you got a done deal.

Remember the 9th stated, just because the Nic isn't used does not automatically constitute a DFR...........what's that mean?

 

[dollacrackho]

Why not just straight doh keep 7 year fences for east and west and then just combine all three lists in 7 years.

 

[abefly]

It's easy. The west has been told you can't file DFR until there is an actual list in place and all the terms surrounding it before you can debate if DFR has been broken.

So in the West dream scenerio lets flip it around. Dougie and APA want it to go through. APA looks at best SLI for their guys, and split the baby between NIC and DOH, in effect trying to appease both sides.


There are no Redo's. The list is the list. Once you took away the AWA MEC you took away any chances of a compromise.

They finish negotiations for their contract and put SLI proposal in there with a note. Take sec. 22 or else. Vote it in, and viola you got a done deal.

Remember the 9th stated, just because the Nic isn't used does not automatically constitute a DFR...........what's that mean?

As a West Pilot I hope that happens. That is what we call Collusion. If US Air management were to agree to anything other than the list they accepted via the terms of the transition agreement, they will be sued by AOL and lose. They filed the DJ case so that a judge can do the dirty work for them.

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

What the ninth was hinting at was that in some way if the west were compensated at a higher rate than the EAST for the NIC not being used, then it might not be a DFR. But thats not going to happen.