It's Official: USAirways Wants American

[B-atch]

As a West Pilot I hope that happens. That is what we call Collusion. If US Air management were to agree to anything other than the list they accepted via the terms of the transition agreement, they will be sued by AOL and lose. They filed the DJ case so that a judge can do the dirty work for them.

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

What the ninth was hinting at was that in some way if the west were compensated at a higher rate than the EAST for the NIC not being used, then it might not be a DFR. But thats not going to happen.

And this is your EXPERT opinion? This train wreck has been in litigation for 5 years with no definite outcome in sight, but yet you and your kind come on these boards and attempt to impose such beliefs on all that lurk here..Give it a break The nic faithful are desperate and approaching CULT status. What will you do if nic dies on the vine? Have the west considered an alternative? What is the west plan B? Is it still all or nothing?

 

[j-3]

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

From:
APA DFW Local Update (Today's DFW Domicile Meeting): April 20, 2012

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.

After Dave left it was back to Q&A with Rusty and Russ and I asked Rusty about the seniority merge and the Nicolau award. Dave had basically said it was not a factor but Rusty wasn’t sure said the lawyers had differing opinions on it but said it should come out to where if you are at the 50 percentile point on your fleet your combined seniority number would put you at that place. Said that this along with seat pay protection might solve the Supp CC problem but if not then it would be decided by another 3 person panel.

 

[General Lee]

And this is your EXPERT opinion? This train wreck has been in litigation for 5 years with no definite outcome in sight, but yet you and your kind come on these boards and attempt to impose such beliefs on all that lurk here..Give it a break The nic faithful are desperate and approaching CULT status. What will you do if nic dies on the vine? Have the west considered an alternative? What is the west plan B? Is it still all or nothing?

I would think they would go for all or nothing. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. The Nic award was a legal, binding award. That should mean something.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[B-atch]

Something to think about. This merger has a real good chance of happening. The BIG money people want it. If the seniority issue is not resolved, we might see a fragmentation in some form. PHX is a low yield market, too close to LAX, the new AA HQ will remain in DFW, thereby closing LCC HQ in Tempe. Doug and the APA will follow the best case scenario for ALL involved. If the AOL crowd continues with their all or nothing mantra, they will instantly become The Weakest link. Don't think for a second that this seniority issue will slow this train. Get on board or be left at the platform!!
Also, guess who brings the largest pilot attrition to this merger? I'll give a hint. East of the river!

 

[doh]

Since everyone else is prognosticating, I'll give it a shot too. Dougie wants the threat of a lawsuit to go away. American pilots don't give a shiv about east/west. Dougie negotiates the NIC into his agreement. 9,000 American votes later you get a ratified joint contract including the NIC. I know there's a bunch of steps in between, but basically, American has the votes to stick whatever they want into the joint CBA and the rest of you can lump it. Majority rules as St. Nic likes to say.

 

[Crzipilot]

Then you have 1/3 of an airline pissed, with an injunction no longer in force (I.E. no more USAPA, who's the injunction against?)

The NIC has not and most likely will not be memorialized in a contract between east and west. Could it be in Sect 22 of the APA agreement? Possible, but then the APA would be looking at using the NIC as the basis of integrating NIC and AA. I have a sneaky feeling that APA would fair far better in a 3 way. East West and AA combination than AA and NIC.

As to the claim on colusion? Really? Three out of 4 parties agree on the way to integrate a list (which really the 4th party won't be invited anyways) and they put THAT out for a membership vote, it gets voted in. I.E. APA USAPA and MGMT

Then you will have the 1200 member strong LOA filing a DFR against a 13k pilot group. Ok.

 

[B-atch]

Since everyone else is prognosticating, I'll give it a shot too. Dougie wants the threat of a lawsuit to go away. American pilots don't give a shiv about east/west. Dougie negotiates the NIC into his agreement. 9,000 American votes later you get a ratified joint contract including the NIC. I know there's a bunch of steps in between, but basically, American has the votes to stick whatever they want into the joint CBA and the rest of you can lump it. Majority rules as St. Nic likes to say.

You are ASSUMING that the APA favors the nic....
Who has the higher attrition?

 

[abefly]

You are ASSUMING that the APA favors the nic....
Who has the higher attrition?

It doesn't matter what APA, Management, or East Favors. The fact of the matter is there was an agreed upon transition agreement in place. Then an arbitrated seniority list was accepted by management under the terms of that agreement. Any modification to the transition agreement to favor one group over another, regardless of size, would result in a union failing to fairly represent all of their members equally.


Here is the company's opening brief in the DJ case:

As set forth in US Airways’ opening brief (​

​

​

​

see Doc. No. 156 at 13:23-14:8) and its response (see Doc. No. 164 at 7:2-10:16), the case law makes clear that the Transition Agreement is a binding collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”) between US Airways and its pilots, and the pilots’ selection of a new collective bargaining representative did
not affect the binding nature of their pre-existing CBAs. Indeed, even USAPA has admitted to another federal court that “[a]s the certified, exclusive bargaining representative of the now merged US Airways pilots, USAPA became a party to the East CBA and West CBA . . . .” (US Airline Pilots Ass’n v. US Airways, Inc., et al., Case 1:11-
cv-02579-ARR-SMG (E.D.N.Y.) (Amended Compl. [Doc. No. 12] ¶ 22 (attached hereto as Exhibit A).) That principle is equally applicable in this case. That said, as also noted in US Airways’ prior briefs, the case law makes clear that either party can propose amendments to the binding Transition Agreement pursuant to the
terms of that Agreement and Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act – so long as the amendments are consistent with USAPA’s DFR to the West Pilots. The question to be resolved by this Court is whether the amendment to the Transition Agreement that USAPA is constitutionally bound to require is, or is not, consistent with its DFR.

APA will be bound by all the prior agreements, just as USAPA is. Including the Injunction against the EAST's Illegal work action.

They know this. The list will be the NIC. Wanna Bet on it?​

 

[abefly]

Something to think about. This merger has a real good chance of happening. The BIG money people want it. If the seniority issue is not resolved, we might see a fragmentation in some form. PHX is a low yield market, too close to LAX, the new AA HQ will remain in DFW, thereby closing LCC HQ in Tempe. Doug and the APA will follow the best case scenario for ALL involved. If the AOL crowd continues with their all or nothing mantra, they will instantly become The Weakest link. Don't think for a second that this seniority issue will slow this train. Get on board or be left at the platform!!
Also, guess who brings the largest pilot attrition to this merger? I'll give a hint. East of the river!

The seniority issue will not even be a bump. It has been decided. If judge Silber doesn't rule before single carrier status is decided, the APA will be the conductor of the train. And they will not let the brain children at USAPA interfere in this transaction. They know the path of least resistance is the NIC. They implement that, NO LAWSUITS. They don't, AOL and the west pilots get an injunction to stop the whole show. Sorry Easties, your days are numbered.

 

[abefly]

From:
APA DFW Local Update (Today's DFW Domicile Meeting): April 20, 2012

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.


Again you are confusing the 3 person panel. It is a panel that conducts the Mediation and then Arbitration. NOT three different pilot groups.

After Dave left it was back to Q&A with Rusty and Russ and I asked Rusty about the seniority merge and the Nicolau award. Dave had basically said it was not a factor but Rusty wasn’t sure said the lawyers had differing opinions on it but said it should come out to where if you are at the 50 percentile point on your fleet your combined seniority number would put you at that place. Said that this along with seat pay protection might solve the Supp CC problem but if not then it would be decided by another 3 person panel.

Of course lawyers have difference of opinions, lawyers will tell you anything you want to hear to get paid. Look at SEHAM. He made millions off the EAST. And what did that get you. Zero, USapa hasd not won a single suit in 5 years!!!!

 

[ackattacker]

The seniority issue will not even be a bump. It has been decided. If judge Silber doesn't rule before single carrier status is decided, the APA will be the conductor of the train. And they will not let the brain children at USAPA interfere in this transaction. They know the path of least resistance is the NIC. They implement that, NO LAWSUITS. They don't, AOL and the west pilots get an injunction to stop the whole show. Sorry Easties, your days are numbered.

It's difficult to trust the content of your posts because you clearly lack objectivity.

I have trouble believing that the mere threat of a future lawsuit would be enough incentive for APA to voluntarily put AWA 2004 hires ahead of their 1984 hires. Nor do I believe that they have the ability to dictate the terms of the SLI process.

Believe it or not it doesn't affect me personally one bit how it goes down. Obviously, it does for you.

 

[abefly]

I have replied to each one of your responses. Not one of you has come up with a logical explanation of how you intend to force your DOH list upon the west and still uphold your Duty of Fair representation top the east pilots.

The East pilots make less than most regional pilots and have dragged this whole industry down long enough. Finally doug parker has found a way to get past USAPA and their games. Doug has no intention of ever signing a contract with USAPA. He will simply wait until the APA is in control and they will decide all of our fate. That scares me more than anything with USAPA and their DOH quest. APA has the brains, money, and resources to screw all of us. It's just too bad that The brain kids at USAPA cant see this.

When it comes to it , you and I have no control over anything in the contract. That should scare you a whole lot more than section 22. Why fight over something you cant control?

 

[ackattacker]

I have replied to each one of your responses. Not one of you has come up with a logical explanation of how you intend to force your DOH list upon the west and still uphold your Duty of Fair representation top the east pilots.

The East pilots make less than most regional pilots and have dragged this whole industry down long enough. Finally doug parker has found a way to get past USAPA and their games. Doug has no intention of ever signing a contract with USAPA. He will simply wait until the APA is in control and they will decide all of our fate. That scares me more than anything with USAPA and their DOH quest. APA has the brains, money, and resources to screw all of us. It's just too bad that The brain kids at USAPA cant see this.

When it comes to it , you and I have no control over anything in the contract. That should scare you a whole lot more than section 22. Why fight over something you cant control?

Why indeed. I fight nothing. I try to understand.

One thing I'm trying to understand is why you seem to simultaneously believe that APA will have complete control over the SLI process, and also simultaneously believe that they will choose the SLI method which favors AWA over their own pilots.

 

[abefly]

It's difficult to trust the content of your posts because you clearly lack objectivity.

If you would like references feel free to ask. I would be happy to show you where all of my content comes from. Most of it is legal information that can be easily found on the web. The cactuspilot.com website contains all the documents from every suit since USAPA started. You can start their. Let me know if you would like help.

I have trouble believing that the mere threat of a future lawsuit would be enough incentive for APA to voluntarily put AWA 2004 hires ahead of their 1984 hires. Nor do I believe that they have the ability to dictate the terms of the SLI process.


That's where your not thinking objectively. It has nothing to do with date of hire. It has to do with where that person fell into their respective seniority list on the date the merger was announced. ( AT least on the AWA/US Air merger) . The fact of the matter is a process was agreed to by all pilots. It was followed by the Transition agreement and accepted by the company. There is no way around that. Can that agreement be modified and sent out to the membership[ for ratification. ABSOLUTELY. But it cannot be a modification that advantages one group over another, i.e. D.O.H.

So APA will have no say in what list they use, there simply is no case law to back USAPA's D.O.H.

USAPA's last ditch effort was to site the MDA lawsuit. Stating the list was not valid because MDA pilots were active at the time of the merger and should not have been put on the bottom of the list. This was their strongest argument. That case was just dismissed. Essentially killing the tiny little shot usapa had.





Believe it or not it doesn't affect me personally one bit how it goes down. Obviously, it does for you.

If you are an airline pilot then it affects you. USAPA's low wages are hurting the rest of the industry.

 

[abefly]

Why indeed. I fight nothing. I try to understand.

One thing I'm trying to understand is why you seem to simultaneously believe that APA will have complete control over the SLI process, and also simultaneously believe that they will choose the SLI method which favors AWA over their own pilots.

They will not have control over the SLI process. They will have control over the CBA. East and west need to be combined on a single contract before we can even talk about a merger with American. There is no transition agreement between America West/ US Airways/ and American. There is only a transition agreement between USAIR/AMWEST.

A new transition agreement for all three parties could be negotiated by usapa to have all three parties, and that can even include a SLI process for three seniority lists. However, this would be a breach of USAPA's Duty of Fair representation towards the west pilots. Uness the Transition agreement the agree too includes the nic. Does that make sense?

 

[FR8mastr]

They will not have control over the SLI process. They will have control over the CBA. East and west need to be combined on a single contract before we can even talk about a merger with American. There is no transition agreement between America West/ US Airways/ and American. There is only a transition agreement between USAIR/AMWEST.

I disagree, East West do not have a combined contract. Do you at least admit that?

Without a combined East/West contract there is no NIC. (all other issues aside) Do you admit that?

The new transition agreement including American can and will be whatever is negotiated, most likely whatever American wants.
Can you agree with any of that?

 

[ackattacker]

They will not have control over the SLI process. They will have control over the CBA. East and west need to be combined on a single contract before we can even talk about a merger with American.

I see no legal requirement that east and west be on a single contract prior to a merger. Why? Who would require it?

There is no transition agreement between America West/ US Airways/ and American. There is only a transition agreement between USAIR/AMWEST.

A new transition agreement for all three parties could be negotiated by usapa to have all three parties, and that can even include a SLI process for three seniority lists. However, this would be a breach of USAPA's Duty of Fair representation towards the west pilots. Uness the Transition agreement the agree too includes the nic. Does that make sense?

What you just said is self-contradictory. Either east/west is required to be on a single contract prior to the merger or they are not. If they are not, and USAPA breaches their DFR in the West's eye's, that doesn't stop them from doing it, it just opens them up to a future lawsuit. And the outcome of such a future lawsuit is not at all clear, the courts have not ruled that using something other than the Nic is a clear DFR violation. Perhaps Judge Silver will make this clear soon, until then it's not at all obvious what would happen.

 

[abefly]

I disagree, East West do not have a combined contract. Do you at least admit that?

I agree, we do not have a combined contract, nor will we ever under usapa

Without a combined East/West contract there is no NIC. (all other issues aside) Do you admit that?

Agreed, but that doesn't mean the NIC just goes away. It is alive and well in the transition agreement.



The new transition agreement including American can and will be whatever is negotiated, most likely whatever American wants.
Can you agree with any of that?

There will not be a transition agreement negotiated if the takeover happens.

1. APA votes in contract in 60 days, Merger gets approval
2. APA petitions nmb for single carrier status, and gets it
3. APA now represents all pilots, USAPA is gone
4. APA sends out same contract to all pilots. Only change is section 22
5. McCaskill-bond starts after all pilots sign new CBA. 90 days later, new list for the whole company

Now the question is what will APA use for section 22 for the east west pilots???? D.O.H (lawsuit from west and assumption company agrees to it. Which to this day they bever accepted a DOH list from USAPA)

Or the NIC, fast integration , company is not liabel in any way, USAPA can do nothing to stop it.
So we will have to wait and see what APA and the company does. USAPA has no control anymore

 

[Crzipilot]

There is nothing that says there has to be a east west contract before a merger. In fact dougie prolly doesn't even want to deal with it. I.E. just another chance for the merge to get hung up. I forsee a contract going out to APA that getting voted in.

I think see APA and USAPA sitting down and saying here's your contract, here is how we envision the SLI being put together, any issues? Good, Send it out for vote. It gets voted on and gets voted in.

Westies scream bloody murder. Continue to file a DFR lawsuit, which starts at Day 1. (new defendant you see) They can then put their donations against 15k pilots dues money....

 

[Crzipilot]

And you think the threat of a lawsuit, which will take a number of more years to figure out, is going to stop APA from doing what they want? I waterfront property in Fl for ya...