It's Official: USAirways Wants American

[General Lee]

Listen cry baby you just crossed a line with me mister! USAPA was formed to represent pilots and to not deal with the ALPO bs from you DAL types. USAPA was formed to recognize and value the only thing we as pilots can hang our hats on: DATE Of HiRe!!
The rookies out west are the problem and always have been for this reason. Let mevput it to you this way, if DAL merges with ASA are they your equal? Didnt think so.
But for you to imply USAPA pilots are unethical is OUTRAGEOUS!


No word of a suspension, nothing else. Needless to say OYS isn't very happy. ASADFW7 is a loose cannon and needs to get off the throne.

Crossed which line? The dotted line your MEC Chair signed on for the BINDING ARBITRATION? You forgot about that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sean67]

Just a question...

If a merger were to happen right now... What are the OFFICIAL seniority lists of American and US Airways?

I don't believe the American list is in question, so their list is what it is... So we need the current OFFICIAL seniority list of US Airways... Is that the NIC? It's not the official list until ratified into a contract by the only members that are a party of the agreement (the restructuring agreement) that defined how it could become the official list. So as of right this moment, there are only 3 official seniority lists there... The East list, the West list and the new-hire list... How can you use an unofficial list for seniority list integration of a combined carrier? The NIC could only become official if it were ratified by all the members. So if that doesn't happen before a merger, the list is worthless...

Yep! I agree

 

[Crzipilot]

It's easy. The west has been told you can't file DFR until there is an actual list in place and all the terms surrounding it before you can debate if DFR has been broken.

So in the West dream scenerio lets flip it around. Dougie and APA want it to go through. APA looks at best SLI for their guys, and split the baby between NIC and DOH, in effect trying to appease both sides.

They finish negotiations for their contract and put SLI proposal in there with a note. Take sec. 22 or else. Vote it in, and viola you got a done deal.

Remember the 9th stated, just because the Nic isn't used does not automatically constitute a DFR...........what's that mean?

 

[dollacrackho]

Why not just straight doh keep 7 year fences for east and west and then just combine all three lists in 7 years.

 

[abefly]

It's easy. The west has been told you can't file DFR until there is an actual list in place and all the terms surrounding it before you can debate if DFR has been broken.

So in the West dream scenerio lets flip it around. Dougie and APA want it to go through. APA looks at best SLI for their guys, and split the baby between NIC and DOH, in effect trying to appease both sides.


There are no Redo's. The list is the list. Once you took away the AWA MEC you took away any chances of a compromise.

They finish negotiations for their contract and put SLI proposal in there with a note. Take sec. 22 or else. Vote it in, and viola you got a done deal.

Remember the 9th stated, just because the Nic isn't used does not automatically constitute a DFR...........what's that mean?

As a West Pilot I hope that happens. That is what we call Collusion. If US Air management were to agree to anything other than the list they accepted via the terms of the transition agreement, they will be sued by AOL and lose. They filed the DJ case so that a judge can do the dirty work for them.

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

What the ninth was hinting at was that in some way if the west were compensated at a higher rate than the EAST for the NIC not being used, then it might not be a DFR. But thats not going to happen.

 

[B-atch]

As a West Pilot I hope that happens. That is what we call Collusion. If US Air management were to agree to anything other than the list they accepted via the terms of the transition agreement, they will be sued by AOL and lose. They filed the DJ case so that a judge can do the dirty work for them.

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

What the ninth was hinting at was that in some way if the west were compensated at a higher rate than the EAST for the NIC not being used, then it might not be a DFR. But thats not going to happen.

And this is your EXPERT opinion? This train wreck has been in litigation for 5 years with no definite outcome in sight, but yet you and your kind come on these boards and attempt to impose such beliefs on all that lurk here..Give it a break The nic faithful are desperate and approaching CULT status. What will you do if nic dies on the vine? Have the west considered an alternative? What is the west plan B? Is it still all or nothing?

 

[j-3]

Have you read the transcripts? Did you read how the company attorney stated they know they have to use the NIC?

From:
APA DFW Local Update (Today's DFW Domicile Meeting): April 20, 2012

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.

After Dave left it was back to Q&A with Rusty and Russ and I asked Rusty about the seniority merge and the Nicolau award. Dave had basically said it was not a factor but Rusty wasn’t sure said the lawyers had differing opinions on it but said it should come out to where if you are at the 50 percentile point on your fleet your combined seniority number would put you at that place. Said that this along with seat pay protection might solve the Supp CC problem but if not then it would be decided by another 3 person panel.

 

[General Lee]

And this is your EXPERT opinion? This train wreck has been in litigation for 5 years with no definite outcome in sight, but yet you and your kind come on these boards and attempt to impose such beliefs on all that lurk here..Give it a break The nic faithful are desperate and approaching CULT status. What will you do if nic dies on the vine? Have the west considered an alternative? What is the west plan B? Is it still all or nothing?

I would think they would go for all or nothing. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. The Nic award was a legal, binding award. That should mean something.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[B-atch]

Something to think about. This merger has a real good chance of happening. The BIG money people want it. If the seniority issue is not resolved, we might see a fragmentation in some form. PHX is a low yield market, too close to LAX, the new AA HQ will remain in DFW, thereby closing LCC HQ in Tempe. Doug and the APA will follow the best case scenario for ALL involved. If the AOL crowd continues with their all or nothing mantra, they will instantly become The Weakest link. Don't think for a second that this seniority issue will slow this train. Get on board or be left at the platform!!
Also, guess who brings the largest pilot attrition to this merger? I'll give a hint. East of the river!

 

[doh]

Since everyone else is prognosticating, I'll give it a shot too. Dougie wants the threat of a lawsuit to go away. American pilots don't give a shiv about east/west. Dougie negotiates the NIC into his agreement. 9,000 American votes later you get a ratified joint contract including the NIC. I know there's a bunch of steps in between, but basically, American has the votes to stick whatever they want into the joint CBA and the rest of you can lump it. Majority rules as St. Nic likes to say.

 

[Crzipilot]

Then you have 1/3 of an airline pissed, with an injunction no longer in force (I.E. no more USAPA, who's the injunction against?)

The NIC has not and most likely will not be memorialized in a contract between east and west. Could it be in Sect 22 of the APA agreement? Possible, but then the APA would be looking at using the NIC as the basis of integrating NIC and AA. I have a sneaky feeling that APA would fair far better in a 3 way. East West and AA combination than AA and NIC.

As to the claim on colusion? Really? Three out of 4 parties agree on the way to integrate a list (which really the 4th party won't be invited anyways) and they put THAT out for a membership vote, it gets voted in. I.E. APA USAPA and MGMT

Then you will have the 1200 member strong LOA filing a DFR against a 13k pilot group. Ok.

 

[B-atch]

Since everyone else is prognosticating, I'll give it a shot too. Dougie wants the threat of a lawsuit to go away. American pilots don't give a shiv about east/west. Dougie negotiates the NIC into his agreement. 9,000 American votes later you get a ratified joint contract including the NIC. I know there's a bunch of steps in between, but basically, American has the votes to stick whatever they want into the joint CBA and the rest of you can lump it. Majority rules as St. Nic likes to say.

You are ASSUMING that the APA favors the nic....
Who has the higher attrition?

 

[abefly]

You are ASSUMING that the APA favors the nic....
Who has the higher attrition?

It doesn't matter what APA, Management, or East Favors. The fact of the matter is there was an agreed upon transition agreement in place. Then an arbitrated seniority list was accepted by management under the terms of that agreement. Any modification to the transition agreement to favor one group over another, regardless of size, would result in a union failing to fairly represent all of their members equally.


Here is the company's opening brief in the DJ case:

As set forth in US Airways’ opening brief (​

​

​

​

see Doc. No. 156 at 13:23-14:8) and its response (see Doc. No. 164 at 7:2-10:16), the case law makes clear that the Transition Agreement is a binding collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”) between US Airways and its pilots, and the pilots’ selection of a new collective bargaining representative did
not affect the binding nature of their pre-existing CBAs. Indeed, even USAPA has admitted to another federal court that “[a]s the certified, exclusive bargaining representative of the now merged US Airways pilots, USAPA became a party to the East CBA and West CBA . . . .” (US Airline Pilots Ass’n v. US Airways, Inc., et al., Case 1:11-
cv-02579-ARR-SMG (E.D.N.Y.) (Amended Compl. [Doc. No. 12] ¶ 22 (attached hereto as Exhibit A).) That principle is equally applicable in this case. That said, as also noted in US Airways’ prior briefs, the case law makes clear that either party can propose amendments to the binding Transition Agreement pursuant to the
terms of that Agreement and Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act – so long as the amendments are consistent with USAPA’s DFR to the West Pilots. The question to be resolved by this Court is whether the amendment to the Transition Agreement that USAPA is constitutionally bound to require is, or is not, consistent with its DFR.

APA will be bound by all the prior agreements, just as USAPA is. Including the Injunction against the EAST's Illegal work action.

They know this. The list will be the NIC. Wanna Bet on it?​

 

[abefly]

Something to think about. This merger has a real good chance of happening. The BIG money people want it. If the seniority issue is not resolved, we might see a fragmentation in some form. PHX is a low yield market, too close to LAX, the new AA HQ will remain in DFW, thereby closing LCC HQ in Tempe. Doug and the APA will follow the best case scenario for ALL involved. If the AOL crowd continues with their all or nothing mantra, they will instantly become The Weakest link. Don't think for a second that this seniority issue will slow this train. Get on board or be left at the platform!!
Also, guess who brings the largest pilot attrition to this merger? I'll give a hint. East of the river!

The seniority issue will not even be a bump. It has been decided. If judge Silber doesn't rule before single carrier status is decided, the APA will be the conductor of the train. And they will not let the brain children at USAPA interfere in this transaction. They know the path of least resistance is the NIC. They implement that, NO LAWSUITS. They don't, AOL and the west pilots get an injunction to stop the whole show. Sorry Easties, your days are numbered.

 

[abefly]

From:
APA DFW Local Update (Today's DFW Domicile Meeting): April 20, 2012

Dave went on to talk about how badly the AW-LCC seniority merger was done and said that this will be the opportunity to fix this for once and for all. It will fall under McCaskill-Bond which means it will be a 3 member board that decides if we can’t negotiate a deal and it will stick. There will be some kind of hard fence for wide body pilots.


Again you are confusing the 3 person panel. It is a panel that conducts the Mediation and then Arbitration. NOT three different pilot groups.

After Dave left it was back to Q&A with Rusty and Russ and I asked Rusty about the seniority merge and the Nicolau award. Dave had basically said it was not a factor but Rusty wasn’t sure said the lawyers had differing opinions on it but said it should come out to where if you are at the 50 percentile point on your fleet your combined seniority number would put you at that place. Said that this along with seat pay protection might solve the Supp CC problem but if not then it would be decided by another 3 person panel.

Of course lawyers have difference of opinions, lawyers will tell you anything you want to hear to get paid. Look at SEHAM. He made millions off the EAST. And what did that get you. Zero, USapa hasd not won a single suit in 5 years!!!!