I thought riding on airline could not get any worse

[imacdog]

and who, pray tell, gave him that idea?

Not that it matters - those who can afford private jet travel will pay whatever it takes to avoid the airlines. I would too if i could afford it.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Riiiight, more seats, less legroom, surely FA"s, overcrowded overheads, no more ontime departures or arrivals, long lines at checkin, long times to wait for baggage, cancellations....

Should I continue?

Not really sure what you mean. Other than United and AA's economy plus seating going bye bye, most airlines have maintained or increased the legroom.

I know MD-80s used to seat 161 pax at most airlines, now they only have 150 seats in the US, and Midwest Airlines has only 132 seats in some of theirs.
I'm can't speak for all other airplane types, but I'm almost 6' 2" and 260 lbs and I have absolutely no problem with the legroom in most airlines. In fact it's only the seat width that bothers me most, especially in RJ's. Overcrowded overheads are the fault of the passengers, not the airlines; they surely haven't decreased the size of the overhead bins and they haven't increased allowable size of carryons.

Ontime departures and arrivals change constantly, some years are better, some are worse. The same goes for lost luggage. Since I was a ticket agent for CAL in 2000, most airlines have voluntarily raised their liability for lost luggage from $1500 to over $2500. In the 1990's it used to be less than $1000.
Check-in line wait times have decreased significantly too thanks to online check-in and e-ticket kiosks.

Ticket prices have also decreased significantly from 10 years ago. They're just now starting to increase again.
I'm sure some of the FA's are surly, but I can't really blame them when you have pax complaining all day long for no good reason.

I've found that most passengers will complain about anything when it comes to the airlines, even if there's no basis for it.

 

[gunfyter]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/15/washington/15air.htm

Highlights:

A tax increase on the Rich! How out of character.

 

[imacdog]

Check-in line wait times have decreased significantly too thanks to online check-in and e-ticket kiosks.

Yep right up until you have a problem with your ticket or the machines are down. Then you're effed in the A trying to get an actual human to help you out.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Biz jets are quieter than 121 jets.

Doesn't matter. Proximity to the noisemaker matters. Know of any curfews that affect bizjets at non-121 airports?

On the last point... not as long as money calls the shots and last I checked... money calls the shots.

Actually, We The People call the shots (I looked it up!). That means SMO can pass an ordinance restricting bizjets regardless of how loudly the "money" was talking. That means states can pile-on taxes and fees...and it means people squawking about "rich folk" not getting wanded at Signature is going to result in you barefoot and grumbling on your way to work.

Don't think for a second the ATA and other groups aren't aware of what's happening.

 

[ProFracPilot]

That means SMO can pass an ordinance restricting bizjets regardless of how loudly the "money" was talking.

They can pass all the ordinances they want. That doesn't mean they'll keep their restrictions. Unfortunately for the City of Santa Monica, they ate from the public trough of FAA Airport Improvement Funds. The acceptance of these funds came with performance guarantees - one is the public access to the aiport for a fixed period of time (25 years?). Also, the city is attempting to couch a noise issue in a safety restriction - basically mixing apples and oranges. I don't believe the city will prevail in the short term.

Don't think for a second the ATA and other groups aren't aware of what's happening.

Oh, they're certainly all part of the well orchestrated attack on general aviation. The legacy carriers have failed to properly manage their business for decades. They're not getting the windfall they'd like from the government, so why not attack the (perceived) deep pockets? It doesn't matter whether or not user fees would equitable in the overall picture of air travel. This user fee debate is right out of the liberals playbook of legalizing wealth transfer, and unfairly imposing taxes.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Blame who you wish...it's gonna happen.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doesn't matter. Proximity to the noisemaker matters. Know of any curfews that affect bizjets at non-121 airports?

This is true, turbo-props can and have set these off before.

Actually, We The People call the shots (I looked it up!).

Yes we do! (Right after Corporate America which is dumping millions into lobbying efforts for their interests)

That means SMO can pass an ordinance restricting bizjets regardless of how loudly the "money" was

Not when they're receiving federal money. Yes, SMO did pass an ordinance, but the FAA got a court ordered injunction to block it.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yes, SMO did pass an ordinance, but the FAA got a court ordered injunction to block it.

Hooray! The threat is defeated! Now you don't have to worry about TSA-creep, noise/aircraft restrictions, or fees and taxes!

Move along now. Nothing to see here.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Razor, your insight here is priceless. But you're really needed back over on the Majors board. Not that you're wanted anywhere.

 

[RTRHD]

Hooray! The threat is defeated! Now you don't have to worry about TSA-creep, noise/aircraft restrictions, or fees and taxes!

Move along now. Nothing to see here.

I pissed off airline employee......Thats rare

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Yep right up until you have a problem with your ticket or the machines are down. Then you're effed in the A trying to get an actual human to help you out.

So e-ticket machines are convenient and they shorten wait times in line significantly (I can't remember the last time I waited more than 15 minutes in line, I think it was over 10 years ago), but you're still gonna complain about e-ticket machines because one time out of a hundred you might have a problem with your ticket??? If you want it your way all the time, I suggest you charter your own airplane. It will only cost you about $6000 and it still won't guarantee no problems, but at least you won't have to fly on the airlines.

In my last job, which I left last September, I travelled on airline tickets about 5 times a month. I travelled so much that I got 4 free round trip frequent flyer tickets in one year. Actually, make that 5, I forgot about the free AA ticket I haven't used yet.
Only one time did I ever have a problem with my ticket. I had it fixed with very little wait and I checked in at the counter just fine.

Like I said, some people will complain about anything when it comes to the airlines; and for no good reason.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Razor, your insight here is priceless. But you're really needed back over on the Majors board. Not that you're wanted anywhere.

Thanks! Silly me...for some reason I thought it appropriate for an airline pilot to comment on a airline topic. If the thread topic was merely a clever ruse to dupe unsuspecting pilots into a discussion where most participants are blissfully unaware of what the future holds for them...well done!

 

[Occam's Razor]

I pissed off airline employee......Thats rare

Proper sentence construction...rarer still.

And for the record, I'm not pissed. I'm amused.

Thanks for helping.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Doesn't matter. Proximity to the noisemaker matters. Know of any curfews that affect bizjets at non-121 airports?



Actually, We The People call the shots (I looked it up!). That means SMO can pass an ordinance restricting bizjets regardless of how loudly the "money" was talking. That means states can pile-on taxes and fees...and it means people squawking about "rich folk" not getting wanded at Signature is going to result in you barefoot and grumbling on your way to work.

Don't think for a second the ATA and other groups aren't aware of what's happening.

Dearest Occam,

On point one... yes, I do. Several... too many to list actually. Most are driven my proximity of the airport to housing and would be in place regardless of the operating rules followed.

On the second point... I'm not defending or attacking "We The People". I simply know that those with money would sooner wipe their ass with those words than be inconvenienced by those who don't have the same options they enjoy. I see it every day I am at work. "That is soooo 200 years ago" is the attitude.

Again, not defending it or attacking it. If you really take a look at how things work out in this country, it's towards and for big money. Every time.

The ban in SMO, ironically, is designed to affect the size of the aircraft, not the loudness. It limits aircraft based on Approach Category so a CE560 (with it's loud noisemakers) can come in all day but a CE750 with quieter Rolls Royce engines is prohibited.

Funny stuff. Oh! And the FAA has overruled the SMO city council ban anyway so the entire example is moot.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Thanks! Silly me...for some reason I thought it appropriate for an airline pilot to comment on a airline topic. If the thread topic was merely a clever ruse to dupe unsuspecting pilots into a discussion where most participants are blissfully unaware of what the future holds for them...well done!

I think it's great you are here. I comment on the majors section all the time as I have experience in moth arenas.

In this one though, money rules. Again... I live it every workday.

 

[imacdog]

So e-ticket machines are convenient and they shorten wait times in line significantly (I can't remember the last time I waited more than 15 minutes in line, I think it was over 10 years ago), but you're still gonna complain about e-ticket machines because one time out of a hundred you might have a problem with your ticket??? If you want it your way all the time, I suggest you charter your own airplane. It will only cost you about $6000 and it still won't guarantee no problems, but at least you won't have to fly on the airlines.

In my last job, which I left last September, I travelled on airline tickets about 5 times a month. I travelled so much that I got 4 free round trip frequent flyer tickets in one year. Actually, make that 5, I forgot about the free AA ticket I haven't used yet.
Only one time did I ever have a problem with my ticket. I had it fixed with very little wait and I checked in at the counter just fine.

Like I said, some people will complain about anything when it comes to the airlines; and for no good reason.

You really think it's one time out of 100 that the airlines experience a problem? Not just when your E-ticket doesn't come through but ANY problem. Or was I just imagining things when I stood in line for an hour after my flight cancelled last tour? (one, count it one agent at the gate to handle a 757 full of people needing to be rebooked). Nah it must be just me - those "worst ever customer service" rankings you see in the news is all made up in my head.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I pissed off airline employee......Thats rare

Who would not be pissed? Did you read the two editorials in the USA today yesterday? Two direct quotes regarding AA's $15 bag fee:

"I'd like to see an itemized bill for the outrageous airfares. I want to know exactly how the money is spent."

"Can we charge the airline for every incompetant or rude employee who works in the service industry?"

Cletus gets a cross country ticket for 200 bucks and suddenly has discriminating tastes and he demands satisfaction!

I wouldn't put up with that garbage and I feel sorry for the pilots who have to.

 

[NJA Capt]

I've found that most passengers will complain about anything when it comes to the airlines, even if there's no basis for it.

No basis??? Riiiiiiiight.

CSA treating pax like they are interfering with their jobs.
First class seating decreased to 2-3 rows instead of 6-8.
Meals eliminated from coach
Meals eliminated from FC
Snacks now eliminated from coach
Charging for bags
Charging for snacks
Flight attendant numbers decreased to minimum FAA requirements.
Continuous onslaught of VISA app solicitations in flight.
Advertising stickers on tray tables
Advertising on cabin monitors
Windows that haven't been cleaned (inside cabin)..ie..greasy head/hand prints.
Tray tables that aren't cleaned
Uncleaned lavatories
Seats and carpets that are no longer vacuumed.
Trapping pax on planes for 5+ hours on tarmacs
Addition of 1100+ regional jets/retirement of 400+ mainline jets
Airlines scheduling multiple departures win thin minutes of each other (and blaming private a/c)
Gate agents not showing up until 5 mins before departure, then saying they don't have time to help.
Gate agents not making announcements about delays/changes.

Face it. The airlines dropped the ball. Man up and fix it and quit blaming your problems on your passengers and private jets.

 

[RTRHD]

Who would not be pissed? Did you read the two editorials in the USA today yesterday? Two direct quotes regarding AA's $15 bag fee:

"I'd like to see an itemized bill for the outrageous airfares. I want to know exactly how the money is spent."

"Can we charge the airline for every incompetant or rude employee who works in the service industry?"

Cletus gets a cross country ticket for 200 bucks and suddenly has discriminating tastes and he demands satisfaction!

I wouldn't put up with that garbage and I feel sorry for the pilots who have to.

Sorry I was going to mess with that razor guy but I dicked up my statement. It should have read "A pissed off airline employee......That Rare" Note the sarcasm. :cartman:

 

[CopilotDoug]

Sorry I was going to mess with that razor guy but I dicked up my statement. It should have read "A pissed off airline employee......That Rare" Note the sarcasm. :cartman:

That was my initial interpretation...
I have a PhD in Sarcasm

Mine was more of a side-note. A huge part of their problem is the clientele (sp?) they're pandering too i.e. Willy Onetooth and the Trailerpark Pack

I kid you not, I listened to a woman on SWAo a row in front of me telling her neighbor (with all seriousness) they deserve to be getting a meal (it was dinner) because of how much she paid for her ticket (which was under $150.)

 

[Daytonaflyer]

No basis??? Riiiiiiiight.

CSA treating pax like they are interfering with their jobs.
First class seating decreased to 2-3 rows instead of 6-8.
Meals eliminated from coach
Meals eliminated from FC
Snacks now eliminated from coach
Charging for bags
Charging for snacks
Flight attendant numbers decreased to minimum FAA requirements.
Continuous onslaught of VISA app solicitations in flight.
Advertising stickers on tray tables
Advertising on cabin monitors
Windows that haven't been cleaned (inside cabin)..ie..greasy head/hand prints.
Tray tables that aren't cleaned
Uncleaned lavatories
Seats and carpets that are no longer vacuumed.
Trapping pax on planes for 5+ hours on tarmacs
Addition of 1100+ regional jets/retirement of 400+ mainline jets
Airlines scheduling multiple departures win thin minutes of each other (and blaming private a/c)
Gate agents not showing up until 5 mins before departure, then saying they don't have time to help.
Gate agents not making announcements about delays/changes.

Face it. The airlines dropped the ball. Man up and fix it and quit blaming your problems on your passengers and private jets.

Sorry man, but most of this is old news. My entire point from the beginning of this thread is that airline travel hasn't changed much recently, yet some people act like it's sooo much worse now. I never said anything bad about private jets; I just commented that pax can always pay to charter one if they don't want to fly the airlines.
Nor did I blame any of the airlines' problems on the passengers. All I said was some passengers will complain about anything and it's usually for no good reason.

90% of the stuff you just mentioned has been in effect for years. It's nothing new to anybody, including passengers!

-Meals and snacks...what do you care, everybody used to complain how they hated airline food anyway. Now you're complaining because you want it back again...make up your minds people!

-Paying to check bags...oh my lord! A round trip ticket anywhere in the country used to average $500; now it's less than $300, so even with bag and snack fees you're still saving a couple hundred dollars off what you used to pay. Yet people will still complain.

-I've never once received a VISA application in flight, I understand that US Air does that sometimes. I fly on tons of airlines and have never received one.

-Also, only one airline I know of puts advertising on tray tables, that too was US Air, but I haven't seen it in a long time. Dozens of other airlines don't do it, but of course you'll complain about it nonetheless.

-Airlines have had commercials on their monitors for over a decade, this is nothing new. Movie theaters also began doing this over 10 years ago and they've increased their ticket prices over 200% and snack prices by over 300%, but I bet you'll never see a news article about how terrible movie theater service has gotten.

-Lavatories, windows, seats, and floors are cleaned the same way they used to be. This also has not changed.

-Trapping pax on tarmac for 5+ hours (I agree this is inexcusable) but it is extremely rare; you have a much better chance of being trapped in traffic for 5 hours driving to the airport, but I suppose you'd probably blame the airlines for that too.

-Addition of regional jets? Are you kidding? These too are nothing new and have been around for years, and most of them replaced smaller, slower, noisier turbo-props. But of course the passengers don't recognize those benefits, they'd rather complain that it's not a "big airplane". They don't even acknowledge that the roomier RJ holds twice as many people as the old turbo-props and gets them there twice as fast.

Like I said, other than meals and security, not much has changed but people will still complain.

 

[NJA Capt]

Sorry man, but most of this is old news. My entire point from the beginning of this thread is that airline travel hasn't changed much recently,

Who said anything about recent, and what exactly IS recent? 1 year? 5 years, 20 years? I agree, it has been bad for a long time, but that doesn't make it right. One flight, one price. Would you want to buy a car and then have to pay for a steering wheel, tires, and a gas cap separate?

And yes...credit card apps and tray table ads are still alive and well at USAir.

My point is to quit nickle and diming everyone and charge what the service is worth (one price). People who can afford to fly, will fly. People who can't don't have to. Airlines can't grow and charge less. They need to target customers who can afford their service. Charge what it cost to operate the flights and size the airline for the amount of customers you have. Airlines have been TELLING customers what they want for years. Airlines work for the customers, not the other way around.

-Meals and snacks...what do you care, everybody used to complain how they hated airline food anyway. Now you're complaining because you want it back again...make up your minds people!

So instead of improving the product, they eliminated it or start charging for it. Brilliant move (sarcasm).

-Dozens of other airlines don't do it, but of course you'll complain about it nonetheless.

Sorry, most of us don't intend to try out all of the airlines. But of the 70 flights/year I ride in the back, they are all equally sub par if it makes you feel better.

-Movie theaters...increased their ticket prices over 200% and snack prices by over 300%, but I bet you'll never see a news article about how terrible movie theater service has gotten.

I have also drastically reduced the amount of movies my family sees in theaters.

-Lavatories, windows, seats, and floors are cleaned the same way they used to be. This also has not changed.

The average airliner today is dirtier than a People Express jet in the mid 80s. Planes used to be cleaned by a team of people between each flight and then hard cleaned every night. Now Pax are asked to "clean the pockets" for them before they get off. Wanna tell me again how it hasn't changed?

-you have a much better chance of being trapped in traffic for 5 hours driving to the airport, but I suppose you'd probably blame the airlines for that too.

I most certainly can blame the airlines. In my car I can pull over and rest, eat and go to the bathroom. Or even turn around and go home.

-But of course the passengers don't recognize those benefits, they'd rather complain that it's not a "big airplane".

I have heard people get on a B757 and say "what a small plane." Size is relative, turbo props serve(d) a valuable niche. Since when should an airline give up the profitability of a Prop because they think customers want a jet? They haven't listen to customers about anything else, why single out this item?

Please notice that I did not say anything about the actual fare pricing. I fully expect the airlines to charge what it cost to operate. What I oppose to is setting a price and then tacking on the "extras." I also object to the airlines bragging about their low fares and then begging the government for bailouts.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Show 'em how you feel! Buy a G650 and fly yourself to your Netjets trips!

See? Easy!

 

[imacdog]

We need the airlines to move our crews around to meet up with aircraft.

We also need the airlines to keep pissing off their highest paying customers and sending them to us.

It's a love-hate relationship.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Agree! It's a symbiotic relationship. You guys should be THANKING the airlines.

I'm still convinced we're going to see uncomfortable changes in BizjetLand, and some of the factors that make airline travel rritating will find their way to your daily routine.

In the meantime, here's what I'm reading: "We hate airline travel because people we have no control control over make it yucky!"

Welcome to my World, Princesses.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In the meantime, here's what I'm reading: "We hate airline travel because people we have no control control over make it yucky!"

Welcome to my World, Princesses.

And we agree with glee to our jobs including airline travel so we can live where we want......

in fact, airline travel was a very attractive reason you took the frac job.... live where you want....



whiners and crybabies.....

its a good thing you, princesses don't represent the majority of frac guys.....

 

[Guitar rocker]

I never said the airlines did not stink....

I'll say it again since you guys seem to be slow on this one.....

If you agreed to it.... then why are you whining??

Rez....Im not complaining about the actual airlining part. I am complaining about what makes airlining such a pain. Sure, there are delays but thats par for the course and not much you can do about that.

Buuuut when Im sitting next to some guy that streches on out, makes himself all comfortable an then takes his shoes off and I get that wonderful scent from those old gym socks like I opened a fresh bag of doritos, or the guy that sits next to me and picks his nose for the whole 45 minute flight and wipes the residue under his seat (MSP-ORD), or the couple that changes their kids diapers right on the seat tray behind us so that we all get the boquet of the farm fresh turd like odor, the times when I stepped in the can because it was not "occupied" and found people actually snapping one off (not the cool kind to view for that brief moment in time), the number of times that my nose has been raped as it was forced to smell something that I never wanted to smell...and Im talking about those people that love to cut repeated deadly farts in that tube for everyone else or the guy that I recently sat next to that also raped my nose with the fact that he hadnt seen a shower/soap/shampoo for an extended period of time, the kid behind me that cant stop hitting my seat and the parents that dont do a damn thing about it, and some of the wonderful stories that Ive heard from the one sitting next to me...spilling out all the details of their life/problems/sex acts (that was interesting but a bit embarrassing as the sound of his voice carried +/- a few rows) and making sure they say it as loud as can be for all to hear. Those items are a bit fatiguing and sort of wear down on yah and make the over all airline experience challenging. And we all have our stories....those are just a few of my highlights that I could come up with off the top of my head.

Rez, like I said, I dont mind the airlining that I do. However, perhaps you can see that the traveling public has wrecked the airline experience all together. When I was exposed to the above stuff, it used to chap my ass. Today, I totally expect it all to happen (be it going to/from work or pleasure) and it almost doesnt even phase me anymore. If you arent exposed to that on a regular daily basis, then I would expect you to not understand and tell everyone here to quit "whining."

Airlining on an airliner isnt so much the painful part as it is sharing the space with the traveling public.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Agree! It's a symbiotic relationship. You guys should be THANKING the airlines.

I'm still convinced we're going to see uncomfortable changes in BizjetLand, and some of the factors that make airline travel rritating will find their way to your daily routine.

In the meantime, here's what I'm reading: "We hate airline travel because people we have no control control over make it yucky!"

Welcome to my World, Princesses.

Razor,

Oh...so now its the fact that we cant control people here. Bla bla bla. From one thing to the next. Your world is getting in that seat on the airbus of yours and flying chumps from A-B. You get to close the door and you ofcourse are a cut above the rest, right? Yup. If you were exposed to all the crap in the back, then you wouldnt have posted such a worthless piece here. The point is, who cares about having "control" over people....people ought to act in a respectful and decent manner for just themselves at the very least. You would think...???

That "world" that you got Princess is pretty nice. When your tired of hearing the the miserable people and all their complaining, the odors, etc. all you do is close the door. Go back to your majors thread and bitch about your airline over there.

 

[acaTerry]

Rez,
I think you misunderstand what's going on here. You seem awfully defensive, but the simple fact is that the US airline industry is doing a poor job. If you compare the level of service to even 10 years ago, you would see remarkable differences. Now why? Simple. Because the airlines, by their desperation, have made one stupid decision after another, and to make up for it they have to cut cut cut. As a result, the only people they can currently attract are the Jerry Springer crowd. THIS is where the majority of the complaints are. Not to omit other stupidity like pushing off the gate for the "on time" departure that they KNOW is going to sit and sit and sit. Or hiring those brainless consultants who come up with such idiotic ideas (like the window-middle-aisle boarding process). Or now charging for the first checked bag. Now we can have an even longer wait to board while cheap-azz passengers try desperately to overstuff the bins. Here come more late departures. So what happens? Mgt will send notes to the crews telling them that they are the slow link.
In my opinion, there are 2 airlines that have their stuff together, hopefully you work for them. SWA, I hate their clientèle, but I love the way they run things. Even if I do have to ride from PHX to BWI on a 737. The other is Continental. You get a decent snack, planes are C-L-E-A-N and the crews, agents, etc are all top notch (if I can only find a way to not get that middle seat!).
You call us whiners and crybabies...do you really think that we are the only ones who are displeased with the airlines these days? Try riding on a foreign carrier, and you will see firsthand that the US airline industry is the Tijuana of resorts.