FLOPS Strike ballots are being sent out !!!

[TurboHonda]

I fly for a company that flies charter, and has in the past flown selloffs for Flops. IMHO, if there is a strike, and Flight Options brokers a trip for one of their customers, that would be a problem! However, if an independent customer comes to us regardless of whether he is a Flops owner/card member, I don't see any issue with accepting his business. (how would we know he's a Flops customer anyway?) As someone has already said, if an airline strikes there is nothing preventing the consumer from walking down the counter to the next airline to buy a seat. The customer is not owned by anyone, or in anyway limited to using one provider exclusively. To suggest otherwise seems short sighted, self serving and ultimately irrelevant.

I'm certainly willing to entertain intelligent differing viewpoints though.

Good luck guys. I hope it never becomes an issue.

I agree totally.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

AIN info

Flight Options Pilots Vote on Strike Authorization
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Teamsters Local 1108, the union representing some 500 pilots at fractional provider Flight Options, yesterday announced a strike-authorization vote as final sessions of mediated negotiations nears. “Local 1108 is ready to make a fair agreement with Flight Options management,” said Mat Slinghoff, pilot-union president. “A fair agreement requires industry-standard scope protections, benefit security and compensation increases.” The union and Flight Options management have been in negotiations on an initial contract since June 2006, three months after the union was voted in. The parties met last week at National Mediation Board (NMB) offices in Washington to try to reach agreement on remaining compensation, benefit and work-rule issues, without success. The federal mediator subsequently scheduled a final bargaining session for late next month. If these final mediated sessions also fail, then the NMB can offer voluntary binding arbitration. If either party rejects arbitration, a 30-day cooling period starts, after which the pilots are free to strike. Strike-authorization ballots, which have been mailed to the union’s membership, will be counted on October 19. Flight Options said it presented a “comprehensive” proposal to the union last week and is awaiting a counter proposal. In the meantime, the company and pilot union will hold nine non-mediated sessions before the final NMB negotiations start on October 26[/FONT]

 

[o2bflyn]

FLOPS most likely will try to charter out some of their trips. They will have to supplement their management pilots and in-house scabs somehow. Therefore, charter pilots, and the company they work for, will have some soul searching to do.

The most obvious situation would be a charter pilot looks at his trip sheet and sees that FLOPS is the customer. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The not so obvious situation is the trip sheet shows the customer to be a broker, such as Sentient. The pilot learns, by whatever means, that the real customer is FLOPS. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The least obvious is the pilot doesn’t know the ultimate customer is FLOPS and does the trip. He is still flying struck work and his company made him a SCAB.

I see your point, but I can't really say I agree with your definition. The charter pilot in question would not be working for FLOPS rather he/she would be working for his/her charter company. Basically, by your definition I should tuned down all charter trips from Phillip-Morris Corporation because smoking causes cancer.

Let me offer this twist of logic to you. 1108 strikes......FLOPS selloffs a lot of flights and pays a premium to do so. Therefore they are bleeding more money at a faster rate. They would run out of whatever cash researve they may have and would probably be willing to negotiate 1108 contract quicker.....or they go out of business. Basically, what you are defining as SCAB work would actually stregthen your negotiating position.

Look, I don't condone SCAB work. I am very much in favor of 1108 getting a fair contract. I just ask you (the "general" you) to keep one thing in mind when terms like "struck work" and "SCAB" are thrown around with charter pilots in mind. You (1108) will not be able to get Captain John Smith from ABC Charter his job back when your contract is resloved.

 

[TurboHonda]

FLOPS most likely will try to charter out some of their trips. They will have to supplement their management pilots and in-house scabs somehow. Therefore, charter pilots, and the company they work for, will have some soul searching to do.

The most obvious situation would be a charter pilot looks at his trip sheet and sees that FLOPS is the customer. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The not so obvious situation is the trip sheet shows the customer to be a broker, such as Sentient. The pilot learns, by whatever means, that the real customer is FLOPS. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The least obvious is the pilot doesn’t know the ultimate customer is FLOPS and does the trip. He is still flying struck work and his company made him a SCAB.

I should have put two statements in the comments.

1. In my opinion
2. I don’t speak for the union or any other union member.

Do other pilots feel the same way? Probably.
Will they tell you? Maybe not.

 

[lookin4better]

So if AA goes on strike and the passengers are re-booked on every other airline out there, the pilots on these other airlines are now SCABs?

Long shot bro... but you miss the mark by quite a bit.

I wont lose a wink of sleep over it.... count on it.

I do wish you guys luck, but I dont work for FLOPS... and if I did I would honor the picket line and not fly a FLOPS airplane...

But the example above will be the rule, not the exception.... the passengers are re-booked... its not my problem... and never will be... go ahead and make a little list..... it will hurt no one.

 

[highnpressurizd]

Never flown 121, never flown for a union shop so I might be wrong. I always thought a "scab" was someone who crossed a picket line. I don't see any charter pilot out there being a scab unless they became a FLOPS pilot and flew while 1108 was on strike. IMHO, I think the term "scab" is used too loosely these days. By all means guys, ask for support from your fellow aviators and ask them to avoid flying your work if you think that will help. But, as long as they don't cross the line, don't label someone something their not just because they don't support your position.

Disclaimer: Not a charter pilot, just one of many with a useless opinion.

 

[NJAowner]

I own a NetJets share. I have a card with another frax (not FLOPs). I have it because I am happy with the service and safety and the terms are more in my favor for what I need than a Marquis card. Theoretically, if my card pilots went on strike, do some of you say that my NJ pilots should research me to see if I own another card (which happens to be in a corporate name other than my NJ share) or share, to determine if I am struck work? You guys are stretching this waaaaaaaaaaaay too far. For example, if FLOPS is struck and pays for the flight it is struck work. If I use more than I supplier for services (which we do in many areas) it is not struck work.

Fly safe. And pay attention to your families and hobbies so you have some other life than beat this struck work issue to death.

 

[mitsdriver]

I should have put two statements in the comments.

1. In my opinion
2. I don’t speak for the union or any other union member.

Do other pilots feel the same way? Probably.
Will they tell you? Maybe not.

Turbo. I support what FLOPS pilots are trying to accomplish and I wish them nothing but the best. However, your thoughts on scabs are completely off into the la-la-land.

Are you suggesting that charter pilots now have a responsibility to investegate their trip sheet to determine whether they're flying any FLOPS clients? How do you propose they do this? Search online? Make phone calls? Ask pax directly? And if they do discover that they're doing a FLOPS trip, what should be done about it? Tell the pax to get off? Call the office and say they can't accept the trip because of FLOPS deal? How do you think that'll go over? Remember that trips are assigned by the company and not chosen by the crew.

Furthermore, if a charter pilot does go to the bat for you and do refuse such trips, as you demand, he/she most likely will get fired for it. Remember that most of these charter pilots are non-union and therefore are not protected. Will you and your union then come to his/her aid, provide benefits, and help out with job placement and such? When FLOPS pilots do get a better contract, will those charter pilots who stuck their necks out for you get a piece of the pie? No? Why not? Because they're not one of you? Yet you're demanding that they go into the battle on your behalf at significant risk to themselves? What gives?

As mentioned before, a scab in this case is someone who takes a job at FLOPS and flys FLOPS airplanes while there's a strike at FLOPS. Charter pilots are employed by their respective companies and flys its own airplanes. They're NOT taking any jobs away from any FLOPS pilot and are NOT scabs. Neither are any mechanic, linemen, FBO customer service rep, caterer, ATC controller, kid with a lemonade stand, and his/her dog who interacts or does business with FLOPS.

 

[CALRepublic]

FLOPS most likely will try to charter out some of their trips. They will have to supplement their management pilots and in-house scabs somehow. Therefore, charter pilots, and the company they work for, will have some soul searching to do.

The most obvious situation would be a charter pilot looks at his trip sheet and sees that FLOPS is the customer. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The not so obvious situation is the trip sheet shows the customer to be a broker, such as Sentient. The pilot learns, by whatever means, that the real customer is FLOPS. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The least obvious is the pilot doesn’t know the ultimate customer is FLOPS and does the trip. He is still flying struck work and his company made him a SCAB.

I try not to post on this forum anymore, I haven't posted anything in several months, too much flaming going on, but I have to for this...

You're WRONG.....you're asking everyone else stop competing because your company is going on strike.. that is so selfish is not even funny. Then you're calling corporate piltos SCABS?? are you f%$#*ng kidding me??? those guys don't belong to unions, they have nothing to do with unions, they want nothing to do unions... they're a whole different animal, they're barely hanging on to their jobs, they don't even know if they'd have a job tomorrow and yoou want them to join the FLOPS cause......if I was flying for a mall charter company I'd come on here and tell you to F**** off

You want support from the NJASAP?? if/when we furlough, should we expect any suppport from FLOPS???.

 

[HSDriver]

Way too far...

This is getting way out of hand. Keep it simple. The scabs will be the pilots that cross the line to fly flops passengers in a flops plane. They are the ones that will have to do the soul searching. Not Joe Charter Pilot that has no clue who he is flying. Not the FBO lineman that fuels the Flops Plane, not the chick at the counter that swipes the credit card. That whole notion is ridiculous. The struck work is the seat in the cockpit of a flops plane. Its simple to me.

The one group that really has some thinking to do is the current flop pilots on furlough that will be called to fly the line when the sheeot hits the fan.

 

[shanes123]

what if they buy a marquis card and they put there dog on the flight they used and the flight is operated buy a charter company that once flew a FLOPS trip 8 years ago? and the trip is done during the time flops is striking..Is the Dog considered a scab?

 

[glasspilot]

What if FLOPS goes on strike and their owners are forced to walk. Could those kids in Korea making Nike shoes be considered SCABS?!?!?

OMG, that scab list is going to get looooooonnnnnnngggg...

 

[TurboHonda]

I own a NetJets share. I have a card with another frax (not FLOPs). I have it because I am happy with the service and safety and the terms are more in my favor for what I need than a Marquis card. Theoretically, if my card pilots went on strike, do some of you say that my NJ pilots should research me to see if I own another card (which happens to be in a corporate name other than my NJ share) or share, to determine if I am struck work? You guys are stretching this waaaaaaaaaaaay too far. For example, if FLOPS is struck and pays for the flight it is struck work. If I use more than I supplier for services (which we do in many areas) it is not struck work.

Fly safe. And pay attention to your families and hobbies so you have some other life than beat this struck work issue to death.

Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying.

 

[o2bflyn]

Be careful Turbo....you are contradicting yourself a little.

I agree with NJAowner.....if it is a different provider it is NOT struck work. If a guy is paid to fly a FLOPS tailnumber, then that is absolutely struck work.

Good luck to all involved. I am taking NJAowners advice and heading out to do the hobby (golf, that is)

Cheers!

 

[OHGOON]

Look, I don't condone SCAB work. I am very much in favor of 1108 getting a fair contract. I just ask you (the "general" you) to keep one thing in mind when terms like "struck work" and "SCAB" are thrown around with charter pilots in mind. You (1108) will not be able to get Captain John Smith from ABC Charter his job back when your contract is resloved.

This is the most simple way to illustrate that outside, non Flops pilots cannot possibly be held responsible, no matter how much we may wish it!! Excellent!!

I really wish the Flops folks luck. It is about time that some pilots actually stand up for what's right and unequivably speak out against all the anti worker propaganda fed to us every single day by the media.

Every blowdried bubble head on Fox Noise, CNBC, CNN, MSNBC or whatever never really question their outsized pay and benni packages nor those of upper management or Government. They never fail to point out however that fair pay for the workers is bad for business. It's BS period! Just like blaming the demise of GM on the UAW workers. The fact that the company stopped innovating somewhere in the late 60s and coasted for the next 40 yrs had no effect at all. It was the workers pay that brought it all down.

Pilots deserve to be fairly paid what we are actually worth and not just what someone from up high thinks they can get away with. I, for one, am with you and hope and pray that all will turn out well. If nothing else, at least you will have stood up together to show the world that the American Dream should not be reserved for just the few who have managed to lie and steal their way to the top!!

 

[TurboHonda]

Be careful Turbo....you are contradicting yourself a little.

I agree with NJAowner.....if it is a different provider it is NOT struck work. If a guy is paid to fly a FLOPS tailnumber, then that is absolutely struck work.

Good luck to all involved. I am taking NJAowners advice and heading out to do the hobby (golf, that is)

Cheers!

Show me where.

I never once suggested that a fractional owner should be hindered from exercising his choice of transportation, unless that choice happened to be with a struck company.

If the struck company is arranging the flight, because their own plane is grounded by a strike, then that is in my opinion struck work.

If the individual arranges alternate transportation on his own and separate from the struck company, then that is not struck work.

That is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of the union or any union member.

 

[acpilot]

Ed is you you former management now line pilot that lived in CLE and now lives in Montana. Go ahead deny it but I know the truth. Also go ahead and deny that you are receiving check airman pay even though you aren't a check airman. Life is good when you are one of Bob's chosen ones isn't it? Nice pay for being one of Bob's boys. Just keep pushing Ed and I will continue to air your dirty laundry. If you are soooo concerned about the financial health of the company Ed why don't you give back the check airman override. I'm sure they could put that money to use somehow since they are too strapped to pay anyone other than you well. I know in your miond you earn that money because you are "special" Ed.

It sounds like he was either (a) smart enough to negotiate a higher level of compensation or (b) knew the right people and exploited his advantage.

I wouldn't consider this "dirty laundry." This is something people should try to emulate rather than denounce. You are fighting for better pay? Well, "Ed" has managed to pull it off and now you're mad at him. Go figure.

 

[o2bflyn]

Show me where.

Sorry, I misread NJA owners post that you highlighted....you were consistant. My apologies.

I still think you may want to reconsider your stance on management using charter companies during a strike. Think about it.....it will cost them probably twice as much to charter the trips. They will run out of money A LOT quicker, and this will further strengthen your negotiating posture.

I don't think that any pilot running Charter for FLOPS during a strike should be considered a SCAB unless they get hired by FLOPS and fly FLOPS aircraft.

 

[AeroBoy]

It sounds like he was either (a) smart enough to negotiate a higher level of compensation or (b) knew the right people and exploited his advantage.

I wouldn't consider this "dirty laundry." This is something people should try to emulate rather than denounce. You are fighting for better pay? Well, "Ed" has managed to pull it off and now you're mad at him. Go figure.

acpilot, the union is fighting for better pay for all pilots, not just a select few. That's why it's called "collective bargaining," not "singular bargaining".

And union supporters are denouncing "Ed" because he's anti-union, ostensibly because he doesn't want to lose his special deal he negotiated in a back room somewhere. Problem is that those only looking after number 1 should be careful not to step in number 2 along the way.

 

[TurboHonda]

Sorry, I misread NJA owners post that you highlighted....you were consistant. My apologies.

I still think you may want to reconsider your stance on management using charter companies during a strike. Think about it.....it will cost them probably twice as much to charter the trips. They will run out of money A LOT quicker, and this will further strengthen your negotiating posture.

I don't think that any pilot running Charter for FLOPS during a strike should be considered a SCAB unless they get hired by FLOPS and fly FLOPS aircraft.

1. I accept your apology.

2. As for the economics of changing the traditional stance of the way that unions deal with management, I’ll leave that up to the union leadership.

3. I will henceforth not use the word SCAB in the context that someone is knowingly or unknowingly flying struck work. I’ll let the union decide the definition of scab. However, I will not change my personal definition of struck work.

Thank you and everyone else for the civility that still comes through, even in a heated discussion.

Once again, my opinions are my own.

 

[o2bflyn]

1. I accept your apology.

2. As for the economics of changing the traditional stance of the way that unions deal with management, I’ll leave that up to the union leadership.

3. I will henceforth not use the word SCAB in the context that someone is knowingly or unknowingly flying struck work. I’ll let the union decide the definition of scab. However, I will not change my personal definition of struck work.

Thank you and everyone else for the civility that still comes through, even in a heated discussion.

Once again, my opinions are my own.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck with this. I really wish you guys/gals get the contract you deserve.

 

[onetimer]

First of all: ED? Who?
Second, I don't think any "junior executives" fly on company airplanes for family vacations. Just how do you define a junior executive anyway?
Finally, I'm still puzzled about this "Ed" thing and that I have some pay to give back.
Senior leadership may be self serving, but it's their company. Their personal investment. I seriously doubt they would abuse it to the point of breaking - or even abuse it at all. What would you do in their position?

You know what this is all about dont LIE you PM me about this, did you ride the short bus to school as a kid. The family trip by Chuck S. and his family to Jackson Hole and back to ACK..you must think were a bunch of dumb A$$es.

By the way I JUST VOTED YES...because HELL YEA was not listed!!!

 

[dime line]

It sounds like he was either (a) smart enough to negotiate a higher level of compensation or (b) knew the right people and exploited his advantage.

I wouldn't consider this "dirty laundry." This is something people should try to emulate rather than denounce. You are fighting for better pay? Well, "Ed" has managed to pull it off and now you're mad at him. Go figure.

Ed shouldn't even be flying an airplane, let alone still work at FLOPS!

 

[mxpilot2]

I'm glad I got out of Options when I did....all the choices would have been very difficult, and I don't envy any of what you all have been through.

I would say, however, that to brand any other pilot a "scab" for flying their airplanes, for their company, for whoever books it, is asking way too much of a much beleaguered (sp) industry. I further don't think the "stink" will "stick" to any that do either.

No charter business should have to turn down business and endanger it's well-being to support your gripe with your company. No pilot "friends" should be put in that position either- "You're flying an Options customer. Don't do it, or we'll mark you as a scab." No friend of mine would do it, and I wouldn't do it for a friend. He wouldn't be one if he put me in that position.

You can't expect the whole industry to support your cause by killing themselves (business-wise). The only outside support you might reasonably hope for would be from other businesses that have your union's support, that serve Options' needs. If they want to take that path, it's up to them.

Take the moral support that will be with you from the majority of them and hope that your leadership can make headway with management. I do wish you the best and that you get what you need to make your future better.

Regards,
Chris

 

[acpilot]

FLOPS most likely will try to charter out some of their trips. They will have to supplement their management pilots and in-house scabs somehow. Therefore, charter pilots, and the company they work for, will have some soul searching to do.

The most obvious situation would be a charter pilot looks at his trip sheet and sees that FLOPS is the customer. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

Not only would ANY self respecting charter company take the trip (and the money), they would do their best to convert that passenger to a regular customer.

 

[bartttman]

Turbo. I support what FLOPS pilots are trying to accomplish and I wish them nothing but the best. However, your thoughts on scabs are completely off into the la-la-land.

Are you suggesting that charter pilots now have a responsibility to investegate their trip sheet to determine whether they're flying any FLOPS clients? How do you propose they do this? Search online? Make phone calls? Ask pax directly? And if they do discover that they're doing a FLOPS trip, what should be done about it? Tell the pax to get off? Call the office and say they can't accept the trip because of FLOPS deal? How do you think that'll go over? Remember that trips are assigned by the company and not chosen by the crew.

Furthermore, if a charter pilot does go to the bat for you and do refuse such trips, as you demand, he/she most likely will get fired for it. Remember that most of these charter pilots are non-union and therefore are not protected. Will you and your union then come to his/her aid, provide benefits, and help out with job placement and such? When FLOPS pilots do get a better contract, will those charter pilots who stuck their necks out for you get a piece of the pie? No? Why not? Because they're not one of you? Yet you're demanding that they go into the battle on your behalf at significant risk to themselves? What gives?

As mentioned before, a scab in this case is someone who takes a job at FLOPS and flys FLOPS airplanes while there's a strike at FLOPS. Charter pilots are employed by their respective companies and flys its own airplanes. They're NOT taking any jobs away from any FLOPS pilot and are NOT scabs. Neither are any mechanic, linemen, FBO customer service rep, caterer, ATC controller, kid with a lemonade stand, and his/her dog who interacts or does business with FLOPS.

I couldn't agree more with your post. It's naive of anyone to think that charter pilots are going to throw themselves on their swords for 1108 pilots. Best response I have read yet to Turbo's attempt to label unsuspecting charter pilots as scabs. Get real!

Turbo posted the same intimidating "struck work" remarks on the charter thread. The response has been overwhelmingly negative and only serves to hurt the cause of Flight Options pilots among the community of charter pilots.

And if anyone cares, I worked for Options for 8 years and was a union member in good standing from day one. Good luck to all.

 

[glasspilot]

Okay...but the Korean kids are still scabs, right?


Down with Nike...?

 

[shanes123]

Okay...but the Korean kids are still scabs, right?


Down with Nike...?

of course they are.and the dog is too..and if you live next door to a guy that has a friend that knows a guy thats a scab..that makes you one too..This whole thread has gone to sh*t with the idiot posts..why dont you just all turn it over to skanza a b19..speaking of b19..did ricci fire him? havent heard a word from him lately..we all know who he is..I guess that makes us all scabs..

 

[ultrarunner]

If the struck company is arranging the flight, because their own plane is grounded by a strike, then that is in my opinion struck work.

That may be the case Turbo, but ultimately, your MEC will define "struck work" or they may choose not to. Read my response to your post on the 135 board.

And in any event, no one at a charter outfit is really going to care, IMO. And it is completely unrealistic to even THINK a charter pilot is going to refuse a trip, and put their job on the line, because of some job action at some other company. And in the end, there is no recourse anyway.

I don't do charter, but we're capable. If I get a request by FLOPS to fly one of their customers during your strike, and its slow time for our ops, and it's a good trip, I'll likely fly it. It's that simply. And my decision is going to be based on strictly selfish reasons, and NOT because you're walking some line somewhere.

I won't loose a lick of sleep over it either. What the heck is the FLOPS MEC gonna do, put me on some meaning list somewhere buried on the internet? Go ahead. BFD! Really!

My responsibility to to my employer. End of discussion.

Remember, FLOPS Mgt is already two steps ahead of you. They have already made the calls to line up lift in the event you do walk. I don't think you will, but if you do, life will go on, and your customers are still going to get to where they need to go over the holidays and in the manner they are accustomed. You can count on that!

Good luck.

 

[mitsdriver]

Ultrarunner said it best. The job of any employee at any company is to put their company's interest first. While many, if not most, of us are in support of FLOPS pilots' efforts, don't think for a moment that those of us who do not work for FLOPS are going to put FLOPS' interest before our respective company's. To do so would be unprofessional and be grounds for dismissal, and rightfully so.

And as Bartttman correctly points out, this effort by a misguided few is going to be counterproductive to the union's overall efforts. No one's going to respond positively to such threats and intimidation. If you want to drum up support from outsiders, there's ways to do it. And this isn't one of them.

My responsibility and obligation is to the firm that signs my paycheck. And last time I checked, it isn't FLOPS or its union. So don't be offended when I work for the benefit of my employer. That is simply my job.

Good luck to all.