FLOPS Strike ballots are being sent out !!!

[William Holiday]

Hey Skanza, I've been looking at your avatar....A single RED EYE.....now go grab a mirror, bend over, pull your cheeks a-part, and come back here and tell me if you don't see a single red eye in the reflection. I'm sure most would call that an a$$ hole.

 

[slowtation capt]

How quick do you think we could burn up their fuel savings by EVERYBODY flying HSC ALL THE TIME.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Skanza you talk self serving and hypocrisy. Look in the mirror ED. You were sent from management to the field to be a field agent for your "friend" Bob. I'm sure promises have been made that you will again be some form of manager if the union is broken. Even now you are benefitting from a "special deal". When you were a manager you thew pilots under the bus and were less than honest all to advance your own self interest ED. You don't give a rip about anybody other than yourself ED, and never have. I find it ironic that you call someone else a self serving hypocrit. If you want to see a self serving hypocrit look in the mirror ED

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

PS skanza AKA Ed. When the strike happens and you cross the picket line feel free to look for me. Even though I don't work there anymore as a union pilot I fully intend to be there supporting my fellow pilots. See you then ED.

 

[TurboHonda]

Just curious as to how the 1108 is defining struck work? Say Joe Millionaire wants to go to ASE RTF now and FLOPS is striking. He calls up the Marquis or CS sales rep and buys a 25 hour jet card and does the trip. Is this considered struck work?

A definition from 1108 leadership would be nice. However, I’m of the opinion that if a pilot “thinks” he’s flying struck work, he probably is.

I have a lot of friends that were former frac pilots that now work for charter operators. They have told me that they will be looking for FLOPS trips and brokered trips that they recognize as FLOPS. Will they refuse them? A lot of them will. Those charter operators need to be advised that putting struck work on their pilots might just yield results that they really don’t want to deal with.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Well said. Looks like you have a grasp on simple mathematics - unlike others here...

Simple mathematics Ed would dictate that if the company isn't doing well that senior management would be sharing in the cutbacks that they have inflicted on labor. Instead there are junior executives going on family vacations in company jets. You claim that the union guys are self serving. It seems to me that "senior leadership" is self serving and really doesn't care about the survival of the company or they wouldn't be acting that way. If you are so altruistic and care about the health of the company how about you save some corporate funds and give back some of your pay from your special deal Ed.

 

[o2bflyn]

A definition from 1108 leadership would be nice. However, I’m of the opinion that if a pilot “thinks” he’s flying struck work, he probably is.

I have a lot of friends that were former frac pilots that now work for charter operators. They have told me that they will be looking for FLOPS trips and brokered trips that they recognize as FLOPS. Will they refuse them? A lot of them will. Those charter operators need to be advised that putting struck work on their pilots might just yield results that they really don’t want to deal with.

Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. Just an honest question.

Wouldn't a CS or NJA pilot simply be flying their customers around and not necessarily a FLOPS owner? As I look at it...as long as the passenger is not listed as a FLOPS sell-off, then he is just another Marquis or jet card customer. There is no way for the CS or NJA pilot to know.

Not against unions at all, nor would I ever cross the line. This situation just promotes an interesting question.

 

[gunfyter]

Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. Just an honest question.

Wouldn't a CS or NJA pilot simply be flying their customers around and not necessarily a FLOPS owner? As I look at it...as long as the passenger is not listed as a FLOPS sell-off, then he is just another Marquis or jet card customer. There is no way for the CS or NJA pilot to know.

Not against unions at all, nor would I ever cross the line. This situation just promotes an interesting question.

This is a false question. If somene owns a Marquis card. He is a nj customer. Plenty of people own shares on more than one frac.

 

[skyismyoffice]

If you don't have a withdrawal card, you will not get to vote.

My bad...I meant WITH withdrawal cards. It's my understanding that a very large percentage of MIGs are saying they will vote yes. We'll see.

 

[7on7Off]

This is a false question. If somene owns a Marquis card. He is a nj customer. Plenty of people own shares on more than one frac.

I think the question is if he purchases the card after the strike, will the IBT try to label that as struck work?

 

[glasspilot]

If FedEx goes on strike don't you think all of there customers would be shipping UPS? UPS would not be flying struck work. Flying struck work would be adding FedEx routes to your system, like say only FedEx served ABC airport before the strike. Now, if UPS started service to ABC after the strike then that would be struck work.

At fractionals it is different in that we don't have routes. Every airport is fair game to all of the fractionals. The only situation I could see is if FLOPS pilots struck and FLOPS management tried to use NJ or Shares to pick up the scheduled flights for the day. I don't see that happening so I think we're safe. There is no way a FLOPS owner going to the compitition during the strike could be interpruted as flying struck work.

I agree 1108 clarification would be nice.

 

[gunfyter]

I think the question is if he purchases the card after the strike, will the IBT try to label that as struck work?

It's not if "he" purchases.... It's if flops purchases charter to fly their program flights.

Otherwise if I had American tickets to ORD... And AA went on strike, I couldn't just purchase SWA to MDW. But if AA chartered planes from SWA... That would be an AA trip flown by non APA pilots.

 

[NJAowner]

Do you really think that FLOPs management would want to put its customers on a NJ or CS fractional plane? That may be a sure way to have an owner leave your program.

Fly safe.

 

[skanza]

Simple mathematics Ed would dictate that if the company isn't doing well that senior management would be sharing in the cutbacks that they have inflicted on labor. Instead there are junior executives going on family vacations in company jets. You claim that the union guys are self serving. It seems to me that "senior leadership" is self serving and really doesn't care about the survival of the company or they wouldn't be acting that way. If you are so altruistic and care about the health of the company how about you save some corporate funds and give back some of your pay from your special deal Ed.

First of all: ED? Who?
Second, I don't think any "junior executives" fly on company airplanes for family vacations. Just how do you define a junior executive anyway?
Finally, I'm still puzzled about this "Ed" thing and that I have some pay to give back.
Senior leadership may be self serving, but it's their company. Their personal investment. I seriously doubt they would abuse it to the point of breaking - or even abuse it at all. What would you do in their position?

 

[skanza]

Hey Skanza, I've been looking at your avatar....A single RED EYE.....now go grab a mirror, bend over, pull your cheeks a-part, and come back here and tell me if you don't see a single red eye in the reflection. I'm sure most would call that an a$$ hole.

Hey,... Nah, forget it. You're not worth it, fool.

 

[glasspilot]

Do you really think that FLOPs management would want to put its customers on a NJ or CS fractional plane? That may be a sure way to have an owner leave your program.

Fly safe.

No I don't. That's why I said, "I don't see that happening".

I was only trying to see a way that it COULD be considered struck work. That's how far fetched it would have to get and we both agree it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Hung Start]

Not sure how it is a FLOPS, but at some other Frac's, the owner contracts have a limit to the amount of chartered aircraft they can be put on.

How would that play if there is a strike?

Hung

 

[ProFracPilot]

There's still a ways to go before FlOps pilots strike. But as we approach that decision point, I believe there lies a conundrum for NJASAP and will reveal one of the false promises made when they chose to leave 1108. We were paid a lot of lip service by the NJASAP folks about how NJASAP stood fully behind the organizing effort at FlOps (enter NJW in 3..2..1...). Of course our effort continues and I believe NJASAP could choose to NOT fly a yet to be determined definition of struck work. But the level of support they're really willing to provide remains yet to be seen.

That said we watch the 121 air carriers - and ALPA in particular - eat their own on a weekly basis. Frankly, as the FlOps organizing effort moves forward I don't expect much in the way of NJASAP support - let alone support from any of the other fracs.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

First of all: ED? Who?
Second, I don't think any "junior executives" fly on company airplanes for family vacations. Just how do you define a junior executive anyway?
Finally, I'm still puzzled about this "Ed" thing and that I have some pay to give back.
Senior leadership may be self serving, but it's their company. Their personal investment. I seriously doubt they would abuse it to the point of breaking - or even abuse it at all. What would you do in their position?

Ed is you you former management now line pilot that lived in CLE and now lives in Montana. Go ahead deny it but I know the truth. Also go ahead and deny that you are receiving check airman pay even though you aren't a check airman. Life is good when you are one of Bob's chosen ones isn't it? Nice pay for being one of Bob's boys. Just keep pushing Ed and I will continue to air your dirty laundry. If you are soooo concerned about the financial health of the company Ed why don't you give back the check airman override. I'm sure they could put that money to use somehow since they are too strapped to pay anyone other than you well. I know in your miond you earn that money because you are "special" Ed.
If I were in their position I would bring the employees on board and try to weather this rotten economy. I would try and improve the operation and its efficiency so my investment would grow. I certainly wouldn't be taking a family vacation in the company airplanes. It affects your credability when you say the company is too broke even restore the pay and benefits to what they were 10 years ago. A junior executive is someone who holds a title of VP but isn't that important like say the VP of safety.

 

[Narrow Bridge]

You all talk llike people in other fractionals or charter companies give a sh--t what happens to you. Do you really think that they are going to turn down any trips and sacrifice their jobs to "walk the line" with you guys? Those that are former FLOPS pilots probably left because they were sick of your BS.

I think your all crazy.

Just remember, self help goes both ways....

 

[o2bflyn]

This is a false question. If somene owns a Marquis card. He is a nj customer. Plenty of people own shares on more than one frac.

False question? Not even sure thats a term in use.

 

[TurboHonda]

You all talk llike (sic) people in other fractionals or charter companies give a sh--t what happens to you. Do you really think that they are going to turn down any trips and sacrifice their jobs to "walk the line" with you guys? Those that are former FLOPS pilots probably left because they were sick of your BS.

I think your (sic) all crazy.

Just remember, self help goes both ways....

Yes. There are those that will. There are those that will refuse to finish their careers as a scab.

Don't ask me how I know. I could explain it, but you wouldn't/couldn't understand.

 

[gunfyter]

Ugh. We don't fly charter. Now why would I not fly a trip for one of our owners?

No I won't fly for Flight Options. They are not one of our owners.

Now if someone buys a Marquis card because they can't fly on options because of a strike. That person is now a nja owner. And that's part of the pressure on flops management tosettle your contract. How many customers do they want to send to other companies before they settle with the union.

 

[o2bflyn]

I think the question is if he purchases the card after the strike, will the IBT try to label that as struck work?

thank you.....exactly what I was asking.

* deleted section because Gunfyter just answered it for me*


To take it one step further....If FLOPS decides (obviously they wont) to charter out their work while the pilots strike, are the charter pilots ( Non NJA, CS,FLX pilots) who take these trips doing struck work? Are they now SCABs?


In my eyes, these are questions that need a black/white answer. So as to not become a part of the SCAB group that formed in the wake of the Eastern strike.

As a past FLOPS pilot (left in 2001) I want to wish good luck to all you guys in the trenches

 

[TurboHonda]

thank you.....exactly what I was asking.

* deleted section because Gunfyter just answered it for me*


To take it one step further....If FLOPS decides (obviously they wont) to charter out their work while the pilots strike, are the charter pilots ( Non NJA, CS,FLX pilots) who take these trips doing struck work? Are they now SCABs?


In my eyes, these are questions that need a black/white answer. So as to not become a part of the SCAB group that formed in the wake of the Eastern strike.

As a past FLOPS pilot (left in 2001) I want to wish good luck to all you guys in the trenches

FLOPS most likely will try to charter out some of their trips. They will have to supplement their management pilots and in-house scabs somehow. Therefore, charter pilots, and the company they work for, will have some soul searching to do.

The most obvious situation would be a charter pilot looks at his trip sheet and sees that FLOPS is the customer. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The not so obvious situation is the trip sheet shows the customer to be a broker, such as Sentient. The pilot learns, by whatever means, that the real customer is FLOPS. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The least obvious is the pilot doesn’t know the ultimate customer is FLOPS and does the trip. He is still flying struck work and his company made him a SCAB.

 

[guido411]

FLOPS most likely will try to charter out some of their trips. They will have to supplement their management pilots and in-house scabs somehow. Therefore, charter pilots, and the company they work for, will have some soul searching to do.

The most obvious situation would be a charter pilot looks at his trip sheet and sees that FLOPS is the customer. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The not so obvious situation is the trip sheet shows the customer to be a broker, such as Sentient. The pilot learns, by whatever means, that the real customer is FLOPS. FLOPS is on strike. If he does the trip, he is flying struck work and is a SCAB.

The least obvious is the pilot doesn’t know the ultimate customer is FLOPS and does the trip. He is still flying struck work and his company made him a SCAB.

Turbo,

I've silently agreed with almost every post you've evey put on this board (and the 1108 board while I was still a Flops pilot) but I disagree with the last 2 exapmles. Are you now telling me that (if Flops strikes) it is a charter pilot's responsibility to research his passenger list to find out if any one if them is a Flops owner or risk being labeled a SCAB for life? This is going outside the lines. How do you suggest they do this? Should this charter pilot prepare for a flight by making sure his airplane is ready to fly, route is planned, wx, notams, tfrs checked, crew is current, etc? Or should that pilot sit down and Google his passenger list and make phone calls to try and determine if his next trip is carrying Flops owners.

Just so there isn't any confusion, I am NOT a charter pilot.

 

[TurboHonda]

Turbo,

I've silently agreed with almost every post you've evey put on this board (and the 1108 board while I was still a Flops pilot) but I disagree with the last 2 exapmles. Are you now telling me that (if Flops strikes) it is a charter pilot's responsibility to research his passenger list to find out if any one if them is a Flops owner or risk being labeled a SCAB for life? This is going outside the lines. How do you suggest they do this? Should this charter pilot prepare for a flight by making sure his airplane is ready to fly, route is planned, wx, notams, tfrs checked, crew is current, etc? Or should that pilot sit down and Google his passenger list and make phone calls to try and determine if his next trip is carrying Flops owners.

Just so there isn't any confusion, I am NOT a charter pilot.

I’m not suggesting that at all. On the other hand, how tight should someone wear their blinders? F’rinstance, a pilot receives a call from an old associate saying “do you know that you’re flying a FLOPS trip tomorrow?” Well, he knows now.

The bigger issue is the company the pilot works for. There will be companies that respect their pilots enough to not put them in that position. Unfortunately, there are a bunch of them that don’t.

 

[shanes123]

Just Strike already..this is getting ridiculious....Anybody have any info worth reading?

 

[jetwash]

Ugh. How many customers do they want to send to other companies before they settle with the union.

That is the key question that should be asked.

 

[X-rated]

thank you.....exactly what I was asking.

* deleted section because Gunfyter just answered it for me*


To take it one step further....If FLOPS decides (obviously they wont) to charter out their work while the pilots strike, are the charter pilots ( Non NJA, CS,FLX pilots) who take these trips doing struck work? Are they now SCABs?


In my eyes, these are questions that need a black/white answer. So as to not become a part of the SCAB group that formed in the wake of the Eastern strike.

As a past FLOPS pilot (left in 2001) I want to wish good luck to all you guys in the trenches

I fly for a company that flies charter, and has in the past flown selloffs for Flops. IMHO, if there is a strike, and Flight Options brokers a trip for one of their customers, that would be a problem! However, if an independent customer comes to us regardless of whether he is a Flops owner/card member, I don't see any issue with accepting his business. (how would we know he's a Flops customer anyway?) As someone has already said, if an airline strikes there is nothing preventing the consumer from walking down the counter to the next airline to buy a seat. The customer is not owned by anyone, or in anyway limited to using one provider exclusively. To suggest otherwise seems short sighted, self serving and ultimately irrelevant.

I'm certainly willing to entertain intelligent differing viewpoints though.

Good luck guys. I hope it never becomes an issue.