Extraneous useless radio phrases

[Hollywood82]

Why would anyone ever say for flight level reporting "...twenty POINT five..." instead of "..two zero five.."??

Or along the same lines -- "...20 and a HALF.."??

Point?? Half?? Where does this crap get dreamed up???

You work for the FCC don't you.

Lighten up man. I hope you were on the radio today, I used "4.6" 133and a quarter" "climbing 41 and a half fer 43" "good morning" "any chance of" "on and hold" "gooday"(with an aussie accent) and "with you" about 50 times, in the hopes you would be listening somewhere. I think when app tells me to follow traffic for the runway tomorrow I'll read back, "lining up for the cattle drive rwy 26" Maybe I'll even throw a 30 second uuuuuuhhhhh uuuuummmm in there for ya.

For the record, when your FOs laugh, they are thinking "I better laugh at this dork or he is gonna make this a long miserable flight".

 

[kf4amu]

Lighten up man. I hope you were on the radio today, I used "4.6" 133and a quarter" "climbing 41 and a half fer 43" "good morning" "any chance of" "on and hold" "gooday"(with an aussie accent) and "with you" about 50 times, in the hopes you would be listening somewhere. I think when app tells me to follow traffic for the runway tomorrow I'll read back, "lining up for the cattle drive rwy 26" Maybe I'll even throw a 30 second uuuuuuhhhhh uuuuummmm in there for ya.

I know of 2 brand new center controllers in Jax that would hate talking to you. It took them about a year to realize how annoying non-standard phraseology is.

But thats ok I guess, as long as you make your FO laugh at your nonprofessionalism.

Seriously, save 10 seconds by using proper phraseology, and if you want to be funny and the controller isnt busy...tell him a joke.

 

[Hollywood82]

I know of 2 brand new center controllers in Jax that would hate talking to you. It took them about a year to realize how annoying non-standard phraseology is.

I've heard plenty of controllers around the country use allot of "nonstandard phraseology" Sorry if 2 "brand new" controllers at Jax get their feelings hurt when someone says "with you" or "4.6". They better get used to it, because over half of pilots use those phrases. I've even heard many controllers around the country use those exact phrases, and I don't think one plane has fallen out of the sky as a result.

But thats ok I guess, as long as you make your FO laugh at your nonprofessionalism.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to imply here, I think you're confused with the post mach80 made. I never mentioned making my FO laugh. Furthermore, my previous post was mostly joking, If you didn’t pick up on that then you are, as I suspect, not very bright.

The phraseology I use is the same that you would hear from NWA, SWA, UAL etc. and I really don’t think that there is anything unprofessional about it. Besides, since the majority of pilots and controllers use “with you” maybe it should be considered standard phraseology.

Seriously, save 10 seconds by using proper phraseology, and if you want to be funny and the controller isnt busy...tell him a joke.

Which takes longer to say? Four point six, or four thousand six hundred? That’s what I though. You have no argument.

Get some common sense, and find something more important to pick on.

 

[kf4amu]

Four point six, or four thousand six hundred? That’s what I though. You have no argument.

Get some common sense, and find something more important to pick on.

You are the one trying to argue with the AIM. But I guess if all the guys at the majors do it, that makes it professional.

 

[Hollywood82]

You are the one trying to argue with the AIM. But I guess if all the guys at the majors do it, that makes it professional.

The AIM is not regulatory. That's why it's separated from the FARs. Do you understand the difference between the two?

I have heard these phrases from numerous air traffic controllers, flight instructors, freight pilots, 135 pax carrying pilots, 121 pilots, and yes even the feds them selves. The first time I heard altitude reported as 4.6 was from a flight instructor who majored in ATC. He now works Chicago center. AIM or not, it is the norm, so get over yourself!

Just today I decided to count how many times I’ve heard altitude assigned or read back as a decimal (4.6 for 4,600). ATC: Aspen app. and Kansas City app.; There were too many “with yous” to count. And SkyWest, Mesaba, DAL, Net Jets, and Citation Shares all used the either 124 and a quarter for freq., 5.5 and/or 5 and a half for altitude. If this is as dangerous as you say it is we should ground 90% of crews out there and retrain them along with just as many air traffic controllers.

Either over half of aviation professionals are wrong, or the AIM doesn’t reflect what is truly standard phraseology. Maybe we should look at changing the AIM to represent the true standard phraseology.

 

[Marko Ramius]

>>>>you do know that some airlines want you to put the actual(ie. not ATIS) winds in the writeup for a sat./unsat.CAT II/III check don't you?<<<

I'd say about 15% of requested "wind checks" might be for that purpose.

I'd say that no matter the percentage, it's about 100% that you're talking out of a$$ on this one.

 

[kf4amu]

The AIM is not regulatory. That's why it's separated from the FARs. Do you understand the difference between the two?

Of course I do. Continue viewing the AIM as optional and it will eventually bite you in the ass.

The point is not whether these phrases are normal or common, they are. The point is they sound silly and serve no purpose except to either A. Save time or B. sound cute.

I can see why people shorten or substitute phrases to save time. Four point six vs four thousand six hundred is a great example. I do it too from time to time. Thats not the topic of this thread. Thats not an "extraneous" phrase (option B above), and my buddies at ATC facilities probably dont give a ******************** about things like that. It's still not as safe as doing it by the book, but I digress.

I wish phraseology was part of checkrides. Theres countless accidents/incidents were standard phraseology was not used. Why do you think the FAA holds their controllers to such a high standard with regards to phraseology? Sure you may hear controllers substitute phrases and words, but I guarantee they dont do it when they are getting checked out on a new position, or taking a proficiency check.

The point is that all these things are written in the AIM for a reason. Safety. Take shortcuts for speed, or to "sound professional" (even though you sound completely opposite) and there will eventually be a miscommunication. With enough miscommunication you will eventually have an accident.

 

[Hollywood82]

Of course I do. Continue viewing the AIM as optional and it will eventually bite you in the ass.

quote]

Optional and non regulatory are two different things. Don’t put words in my mouth. According to my companies POI, "the AIM is there to provide guidance, it's not law" check with your local FSDO.

So now you admit to deviating from the AIM as well. Apparently you view it as “optional”. So what's all the fuss about? According to the AIM 4.6 is non standard phraseology, yet you admit to using it.

I suppose the only non standard phraseology that's OK is the non standard phraseology that you use. There’s a name for people like you, hypocrite.

 

[kf4amu]

Optional and non regulatory are two different things. Don’t put words in my mouth. According to my companies POI, "the AIM is there to provide guidance, it's not law" check with your local FSDO.

So now you admit to deviating from the AIM as well. Apparently you view it as “optional”. So what's all the fuss about? According to the AIM 4.6 is non standard phraseology, yet you admit to using it.

I suppose the only non standard phraseology that's OK is the non standard phraseology that you use. There’s a name for people like you, hypocrite.

No hypocrites won't admit they are wrong. I admit I'm wrong when I do it. You don't. You still think its ok because its cute and/or saves time, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Your sole reason for non admitting you are wrong is the old "everyone else is doing it" argument. I tried that in grade school and learned pretty quickly it doesnt work, least of all in the professional world.

If you are ever in court for an aviation incident, don't ever say the AIM is optional. You might as well just bend over right there.

 

[say again]

No hypocrites won't admit they are wrong. I admit I'm wrong when I do it. You don't. You still think its ok because its cute and/or saves time, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Your sole reason for non admitting you are wrong is the old "everyone else is doing it" argument. I tried that in grade school and learned pretty quickly it doesnt work, least of all in the professional world.

If you are ever in court for an aviation incident, don't ever say the AIM is optional. You might as well just bend over right there.

Lighten up tightwad. Say what you wish/how you wish, and I will do the same. You don't like it?? Tough sh!t. I'm not gonna have a heart attack over someone's phraseology. Besides, I really don't pay much attention to others conversations to care or notice. Back to the AIM (need some TP). :beer:

 

[kf4amu]

Lighten up tightwad. Say what you wish/how you wish, and I will do the same. You don't like it?? Tough sh!t. I'm not gonna have a heart attack over someone's phraseology. Besides, I really don't pay much attention to others conversations to care or notice. Back to the AIM (need some TP). :beer:

I just dont want you running into my airplane because you turned to 240 instead of climbing to FL240. Or blocked a controller for 10 seconds 3 times while you're howdying and withyaing and ahhhhhing him to death and he couldnt move someone out of the way and got a deal.

Its a big deal, and it will eventually cause an incident/accident.

 

[Hollywood82]

You are the one trying to argue with the AIM. But I guess if all the guys at the majors do it, that makes it professional.

I can see why people shorten or substitute phrases to save time. Four point six vs four thousand six hundred is a great example. I do it too from time to time. Thats not the topic of this thread.

Continue viewing the AIM as optional and it will eventually bite you in the ass.

Sounds like you view it as optional.

The point is not whether these phrases are normal or common.

Actually that is the exact point I’m trying to make.

I wish phraseology was part of checkrides. Theres countless accidents/incidents were standard phraseology was not used.

Sounds like you’re reaching, find one accident that that was caused by someone using “with you”, or “4.6”. You can’t. There is no such accident. Quit trying to be dramatic.

The point is that all these things are written in the AIM for a reason. Safety. Take shortcuts for speed, or to "sound professional" (even though you sound completely opposite) and there will eventually be a miscommunication. With enough miscommunication you will eventually have an accident.

I can see why people shorten or substitute phrases to save time. Four point six vs four thousand six hundred is a great example. I do it too from time to time. Thats not the topic of this thread.

You’re just a big hypocrite.

I'm proud to have attended ERAU.

enough said

 

[kf4amu]

You will never improve until you recognize you have room to improve. My goal as a pilot is to continually improve. I'm not perfect, but when you dont even recognize you have a problem....you are dangerous. Keep telling yourself your nonstandard phraseology makes you a professional. The real professionals will be laughing.


The topic was not only about 4.6 or "with you". Those are minor...but you will never win the argument that those phrases are ok because "everyone does it".

If you read the thread title, it was about extraneous phrases. Just because they are normal or common doesnt mean they are correct.


Read the AIM, its there to help. Actually, read Don Brown's articles first. They are much easier to read and they will help you greatly.

 

[say again]

You will never improve until you recognize you have room to improve. My goal as a pilot is to continually improve. I'm not perfect, but when you dont even recognize you have a problem....you are dangerous. Keep telling yourself your nonstandard phraseology makes you a professional. The real professionals will be laughing.


The topic was not only about 4.6 or "with you". Those are minor...but you will never win the argument that those phrases are ok because "everyone does it".

If you read the thread title, it was about extraneous phrases. Just because they are normal or common doesnt mean they are correct.


Read the AIM, its there to help. Actually, read Don Brown's articles first. They are much easier to read and they will help you greatly.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! you are simply amazing. get over it already.

 

[Hollywood82]

You will never improve until you recognize you have room to improve. My goal as a pilot is to continually improve. I'm not perfect, but when you dont even recognize you have a problem....you are dangerous. Keep telling yourself your nonstandard phraseology makes you a professional. The real professionals will be laughing.


The topic was not only about 4.6 or "with you". Those are minor...but you will never win the argument that those phrases are ok because "everyone does it".

If you read the thread title, it was about extraneous phrases. Just because they are normal or common doesnt mean they are correct.


Read the AIM, its there to help. Actually, read Don Brown's articles first. They are much easier to read and they will help you greatly.

Thanks for the lecture! Get over yourself!

 

[kf4amu]

Thanks for the lecture! Get over yourself!

You're welcome. Hope it helps one day.

 

[Hollywood82]

The topic was not only about 4.6 or "with you". Those are minor...

So you decide what is considered minor? You get to pick and choose what you follow from the AIM? Wait a second, I thought you were just saying that using non standard phraseology will cause an accident? If you are so all knowing, why don’t you follow your own advice?

I can see why people shorten or substitute phrases to save time. Four point six vs four thousand six hundred is a great example. I do it too from time to time.

I see, it’s only OK if you do it.

Or blocked a controller for 10 seconds 3 times while you're howdying and withyaing and ahhhhhing him to death and he couldnt move someone out of the way and got a deal.

Sounds like you like to exaggerate a little. Drama added courtesy of kf4amu.

I bet you are one of those kneeboard wearing, tell everyone you’re a pilot, “I wish I was flying” license plate cover, can’t hand fly an ILS, hacks. But at least you’ll sound good on the radio when you go full scale, and tell ATC you’re going missed.

 

[highsky]

The AIM is not regulatory. That's why it's separated from the FARs. Do you understand the difference between the two?

I have heard these phrases from numerous air traffic controllers, flight instructors, freight pilots, 135 pax carrying pilots, 121 pilots, and yes even the feds them selves. The first time I heard altitude reported as 4.6 was from a flight instructor who majored in ATC. He now works Chicago center. AIM or not, it is the norm, so get over yourself!

Just today I decided to count how many times I’ve heard altitude assigned or read back as a decimal (4.6 for 4,600). ATC: Aspen app. and Kansas City app.; There were too many “with yous” to count. And SkyWest, Mesaba, DAL, Net Jets, and Citation Shares all used the either 124 and a quarter for freq., 5.5 and/or 5 and a half for altitude. If this is as dangerous as you say it is we should ground 90% of crews out there and retrain them along with just as many air traffic controllers.

Either over half of aviation professionals are wrong, or the AIM doesn’t reflect what is truly standard phraseology. Maybe we should look at changing the AIM to represent the true standard phraseology.

Idiot.

 

[Hollywood82]

Idiot.

Still trying to figure out how to form a whole sentence?

 

[kf4amu]

So you decide what is considered minor? You get to pick and choose what you follow from the AIM? Wait a second, I thought you were just saying that using non standard phraseology will cause an accident? If you are so all knowing, why don’t you follow your own advice?

Things that most people do on a daily basis that dont affect safety to a large degree would be considered minor. Unfortunately, you have so little experience in the communications industry that you don't even know the kinds of problems nonstandard phraseology cause, therefore to you, everything is minor.

And I DO try to follow my own advice. But I am human. The difference between you and I is I admit I'm wrong and try to get better. You justify it with a 2nd grade argument.

I bet you are one of those kneeboard wearing, tell everyone you’re a pilot, “I wish I was flying” license plate cover, can’t hand fly an ILS, hacks. But at least you’ll sound good on the radio when you go full scale, and tell ATC you’re going missed.

Good communications have nothing to do with flying ability. Nor would I be so bold or cocky to compliment my own flying skills. I'll let others do that if they wish.

Your attitude is dangerous.