Delta TA on SCOPE

[nwaf16dude]

I am trying to read through this TA, lots of lawyer-speak so it can be tough at times. But, I zeroed in on Scope, and here are some things I think I got:



1. for 76 seaters, the MAX limit will be 223 planes, the old was 256 total 70 or 76 seaters, 153 which were 76 seaters.


2. for 50-70 seaters, the max will be 125. (how many 50 seaters are there now? Hundreds. How many 70 seaters total? Now it looks like there will be only 125 total 50 or 70 seaters, and they have to be at that number by 2014 I believe.


3. There has to be 1.25 new mainline entry planes (either 717 or A319) for every additional 76 seater added, but it still can only go to the max of 223. Right now there are 153 76 seaters, so if DL gets a bunch of new 717s and A319s, they may be allowed to go up to 223. IF they don't get any new 717s or A319s, the limit still stands at 153 76 seaters, which is what they have now. IOW, they have to get new entry planes (717 or A319) to get anymore 76 seaters.



4. Foreign Scope---DL was allowed to codeshare or have Joint Ventures and have 50% of the seats onboard the other carriers' planes. Now it will be reduced to 40%.


5. Alaska Air----Delta currently can codeshare with AK and can purchase up to 50% of the seats on a plane (up to 86 seats). That will now be pushed back to only 35%, except on flights from SEA to MSP and ATL, where those planes can still have 50%.

6. 35% of newhires in classes have to come from ALPA DCI carriers.



I think most of that is right, from a cursory glance. If I made any mistakes, please correct me. Yes, there are more 76 seat RJs, but there will be a lot less RJs total, and that is the main deal right now. Sure, the 50 seaters were going away anyway, but Delta supposedly is on the hook for them for another 10 years. Why is that? Good question. What to do about it? You can always park them or continue to fly them at a loss. Or, you can trade them up, bring down the total number via the RJ manufacturer, and clean up most of the problem. If larger planes are guaranteed (no 717s or extra A319s, no 76 seaters), and the total number of RJs goes down, then that helps.


Overall, I like the Scope section a lot more than I like the compensation part.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I hope I'm wrong, but I think you are missing 102 51-70 seat aircraft. As I read it, the end state is 125 50 seaters, 102 51-70, and 223 76 seaters. That's 450 total DCI.

 

[waveflyer]

How about we allow unlimited 76-seat planes...flown by DELTA pilots. Not enough DELTA pilots to fly hundreds of LARGE RJs? Perhaps we could hire hundreds of DCI pilots.

For once, quit diluting and DISOLVING Delta Air Lines.



(I'm going to, stick this in its own thread.)

Great post!

 

[waveflyer]

Because it's not economically feasible. Doing so would place Delta at an extreme competitive disadvantage against the other carriers who can outsource that flying at a much lower cost. Remember, it's not just the pilots. Even if the pilots agreed to do it at regional rates, they still have the FAs, rampers, mechanics, customer service agents, etc. Paying mainline benefits, wages, and work rules to all of those people to handle the 76-seat operation while all of their competitors are outsourcing that same flying for a much lower cost is not a recipe for profitability.

If this is your mindset- you really won't fit in at SWA- the whole model is about quality, well paid people in all positions will perform and more than earn that wage.
I completely disagree with this theory- except that it would put delta at a small disadvantage- but CAL allowed no >50 seaters, they did well- SWA allows none- DELTA has the most profitable network-
If change is ever going to happen IT WILL START WITH DELTA PILOTS TODAY.

I couldn't disagree with overall argument above more bc it has virtually no end.

 

[KarmaPolice]

If this is your mindset- you really won't fit in at SWA- the whole model is about quality, well paid people in all positions will perform and more than earn that wage.
I completely disagree with this theory- except that it would put delta at a small disadvantage- but CAL allowed no >50 seaters, they did well- SWA allows none- DELTA has the most profitable network-
If change is ever going to happen IT WILL START WITH DELTA PILOTS TODAY.

I couldn't disagree with overall argument above more bc it has virtually no end.

What a strange idea!

If any of you lived out west, there is a tire chain called "Les Schwab". It's profitable because the workers, I swear, are the happiest people alive. It's noticeable. It's NOT like walking into Walmart or McDonalds. It's the opposite. The person behind the register isn't a zombie who hates their life because they get paid crap and have no long term devotion to the place they spend most of their waking hours at. They have a sense of belonging, and they will do ANYTHING they can to keep you coming back to the place they work at.

I get that every airline besides SWA has been Walmartized as much as management has been able to. It just scares me when I see my fellow workers being willing to do the Walmartization for them.

 

[amcnd]

What a strange idea!

If any of you lived out west, there is a tire chain called "Les Schwab". It's profitable because the workers, I swear, are the happiest people alive. It's noticeable. It's NOT like walking into Walmart or McDonalds. It's the opposite. The person behind the register isn't a zombie who hates their life because they get paid crap and have no long term devotion to the place they spend most of their waking hours at. They have a sense of belonging, and they will do ANYTHING they can to keep you coming back to the place they work at.

I get that every airline besides SWA has been Walmartized as much as management has been able to. It just scares me when I see my fellow workers being willing to do the Walmartization for them.

Except Les Schwab would only do my back brakes on my "airport" car if i bought 4 new tires from them.. (were they bald.. So so. But i only drive it 3-4 times a month. They said they did'nt want to "damage"my bald tires doing my brakes..??? Lame excuse.) so i went down the street to Big O tires. They had no problem just doing my back brakes.. Saved me $600... They both have free popcorn, free wifi, free coffee... Kind of sounds like the airlines....

 

[PCL_128]

Riddle me this smart guy. How does SWA compete with no RJs?

SWA has a completely different business model that is based around a domestic point-to-point system. Delta (and all of the other legacies) have an international business model that uses hub-and-spoke to connect passengers to their international flights, which are really their money makers. What works for SWA doesn't work for Delta, and vice versa.

 

[KarmaPolice]

SWA has a completely different business model that is based around a domestic point-to-point system. Delta (and all of the other legacies) have an international business model that uses hub-and-spoke to connect passengers to their international flights, which are really their money makers. What works for SWA doesn't work for Delta, and vice versa.

Now that Delta has several domestic hubs, you'd be surprised by how much more point to point our system is. That's an old argument. We make a lot of money on both our domestic and international system.

RJs are required to connect passengers to hubs to fly an international flight? Some smaller markets deserve RJ service, but DELTA is flying NINE RJS a day between Cinci and LaGuardia. NINE!!!! And that's just one route. WE DON'T NEED THIS MANY RJS. WE CAN FEED OUR NETWORK WITH MAINLINE JETS.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I just want to see a summary of what the ALPA guys were thinking. I can try to read the TA, but I would have to hire a lawyer to do that.

Bye Bye---General Lee

The NN is out, and it is misleading.

It makes you think they really are tightening scope. What they are really doing is taking credit for high fuel prices dooming the 50 seaters.

As has been said before. DCI will get 70 MORE 70-76 seaters if we ratify this. In my opinion, we'd be better off under old scope provisions. Let them fly the 50 seaters if they want (but they won't because they know they are losing money) Let's keep 70-76 seaters capped at 255.

 

[PCL_128]

Some smaller markets deserve RJ service, but DELTA is flying NINE RJS a day between Cinci and LaGuardia. NINE!!!!

Yeah, I'm with you there. As far as I'm concerned. slot controlled airports shouldn't even allow RJ service. Flying RJs from LGA to major cities is ridiculous.

 

[i fly boxes]

Hey delta guys, with the purchase of the 717's or lease i should say, doesnt management now have you backed in a corner? Under your current agreement, as mainline aircraft are added, can they not add 3 76 seat aircraft per every one mainline aircraft? Under your TA there can only be 233 crj 900's In other words, if the TA fails, will they be able to add more than 200 more 900's as opposed to the 70 that will be allowed in the new contract?