Delta TA on SCOPE

[waveflyer]

Did a SWA pilot just call a Delta pilot a "sellout"???

A former legacy pilot who had his job outsourced called a delta pilot a sellout- yes. Until they prove me wrong, I'll continue to. Those that hold onto the pride and CONSIDERABLE achievements of DALPA are toting achievements at least 15 years old.

Man, was I an incredible athlete 15 years ago- you guys should have seen it.

NOW is all that matters.

 

[jonjuan]

Man, was I an incredible athlete 15 years ago- you guys should have seen it.

Well, at the Speshel Olyimpiks, everyone's a winner. :nuts:

 

[Dan Roman]

I'm sure you would like me to STFU -
You're wrong^^^ this deal affects everyone in the industry. All this does is get rid of a 150 50-seaters that are fuel priced out of the market anyway for raises far less than what DALPA pilots deserve.

As a SW pilot I'm, in the short term, far more affected by the largest legacy network pilots still making less than us than scope- but I talk as a former legacy guy. With the understanding that outsourcing undermines wages severely in the long run.

Wave, help me out here because I expect more from you than the Tankerclown/Outerlimits type SWA folks on here.
It's on here elsewhere that a DAL 737 Captain get's $249 an hour (hourly rate plus dc match) a SWA Captain get's $236 when combining hourly and 401k match. I 'm quoting PCL by the way. Clearly they are reducing the RJ flying with this contract and some of the biggest gains benefit the reserve (read junior) pilots. They also wisely made this a short contract so they will be able to get back to the table and build on the gains they made.

So how the hell is this a sellout, particularly in a weak economy??

 

[Dan Roman]

Well, at the Speshel Olyimpiks, everyone's a winner. :nuts:

I have a special needs son, you are a jerk. He's not.

 

[Scoot 11]

Did a SWA pilot just call a Delta pilot a "sellout"???

Yes. Quite humorous, since SWA has only since 2006 been in the lead in pay.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure you would like me to STFU -
You're wrong^^^ this deal affects everyone in the industry. All this does is get rid of a 150 50-seaters that are fuel priced out of the market anyway for raises far less than what DALPA pilots deserve.

As a SW pilot I'm, in the short term, far more affected by the largest legacy network pilots still making less than us than scope- but I talk as a former legacy guy. With the understanding that outsourcing undermines wages severely in the long run.

The problem was those 50 seaters have leases on them for another 10 years. Just like you had leases on the 717s through 2017. The only way the company could get rid of them and NOT pay the leases was to trade UP. Sounds crazy, and of course I would like to know who did that. Some say they could get rid of 50 seaters in PNCL's BK, but those are the newest 50 seaters out there (with the most cycles left), so they would be among the 125 allowed to stay. (150 will be parked)

Your company did what it could to rid themselves of a plane they didn't want (717s), and my company is trying to do the same. I don't really like the results, but it does lower the number of total RJs, and shifts a lot of the flying over to mainline (percentage wise). Less total RJs is good.

The UAL guys who complain about this need to fix their own deal first. The CAL guys who didn't think there would be anything over 50 seats were surprised when Smallstick just threw UA Express flight numbers over the CR7s and E170s and flew them through EWR and IAH.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Scoot 11]

Delta= sellouts.

If this passes is there any other word for it? All the promises that the new crowd there gets it. If this passes, it's unmitigated proof that DALPA doesn't. And I'll take every opportunity to point that out. Every.

You are a total tool! Your company/union SOLD out this industry for YEARS. Get back to lifting weights and sodomizing your boyfriend which you so highly brag about when you're not on here putting down the rest of the industry. You bring nothing constructive except tough guy talk from a guy who paid to work at an airline who undercut this industry for YEARS!

 

[General Lee]

Wave, help me out here because I expect more from you than the Tankerclown/Outerlimits type SWA folks on here.
It's on here elsewhere that a DAL 737 Captain get's $249 an hour (hourly rate plus dc match) a SWA Captain get's $236 when combining hourly and 401k match. I 'm quoting PCL by the way. Clearly they are reducing the RJ flying with this contract and some of the biggest gains benefit the reserve (read junior) pilots. They also wisely made this a short contract so they will be able to get back to the table and build on the gains they made.

So how the hell is this a sellout, particularly in a weak economy??

Dan,

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[777forever]

Dan,

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Spot on General, spot on. Well said.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[nwaf16dude]

Dan,

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

There are enough MD-90's in the inbound pipeline to more than replace the remaining DC-9 seats when they depart, so the 717's will be growth airplanes, unless there are more airplanes leaving that we haven't heard about.

 

[Hamfighter]

Republic Airways CEO talks Bombardier jet plans
Republic Airways: New Bombardier jet could be part of global alliance flying in US


By Joshua Freed, AP Airlines Writer | Associated Press

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- The CEO of feeder airline operator Republic Airways said on Wednesday that new Bombardier jets could be flown in the U.S. in a partnership with one of the big airline alliances.
Republic ordered 40 of the new C-Series jets being developed by Montreal-based Bombardier, which is aiming to begin delivering them to other customers by the end of next year.
Republic's main business is flying smaller jets for big airlines such as Delta and United. But the new Bombardier plane has 100 to 149 seats, a size typically flown by the major airlines themselves, not by feeder carriers.
Pilot contracts at all the major airlines bar partnerships with feeder carriers flying planes that big. Republic CEO Bryan Bedford was asked at a regional airline convention on Wednesday what his airline plans to do with those jets.
One possibility is that "it could fit into a global alliance as (a low-cost carrier) component to a broader North American strategy for a SkyTeam or Star or oneworld," Bedford said in an interview.
He declined to talk in detail about Republic's plans for the jet, which is supposed to begin arriving in late 2015. His comments appeared to suggest that Republic might operate those planes in partnership with one of the big three airline alliances. SkyTeam is anchored in the U.S. by Delta, the Star Alliance has United Airlines and US Airways, and oneworld has American.
"I still think that what we're going to see is a worldview where a low-cost carrier can participate in domestic alliances in 2015, and that there'll be a need for that product here," he said.
Republic also owns Denver-based Frontier Airlines, which is it trying to sell or spin off. Bedford said the C-Series order will stay with Republic, though, and not go with Frontier.

 

[135Drvr]

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

I have come to respect your level-headedness on this sometimes maddening board. However, it seems like you're starting to drink the DALPA Cool Aid and leaning to endorse this insult of a TA. It was rushed through so RA could get larger RJs to feed JFK and to obtain the 717's. The slight raises are funded by a reduction in PS contributions in a profitable company.

What's wrong with a NO vote and telling DALPA to go back and try to do a little better? This thing wasn't even expected to be finished until next January anyway. I'm willing to vote NO and wait and see, but I don't think RA wants to - that gives us leverage. Any future offers can not be less without royally pissing off the pilot group.

Interested in your thoughts.

 

[Hamfighter]

So how does Republic buying 40 100-149 seat C-Series to possibly fly for Delta's Skyteam work into the new scope clause? This wasn't mentioned in the TA...

 

[Scoot 11]

General,

I have come to respect your level-headedness on this sometimes maddening board. However, it seems like you're starting to drink the DALPA Cool Aid and leaning to endorse this insult of a TA. It was rushed through so RA could get larger RJs to feed JFK and to obtain the 717's. The slight raises are funded by a reduction in PS contributions in a profitable company.

What's wrong with a NO vote and telling DALPA to go back and try to do a little better? This thing wasn't even expected to be finished until next January anyway. I'm willing to vote NO and wait and see, but I don't think RA wants to - that gives us leverage. Any future offers can not be less without royally pissing off the pilot group.

Interested in your thoughts.

I appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
Here's my take on the profit sharing. The company has announced that not just for contract, but for the entire company, there will be a reduction to 10% for the first $2.5 billion. For me, that measly 5% isn't worth going back to the draw board. And who's to say the company will give in on that? They already announced it COMPANY WIDE.
I can appreciate that this is a turd contract. But it's something neither CAL/UAL, AA, LCC or any other legacy has been able to do under the worst environment thanks to Barak Obama. If we reject this contract, we are right back to a normal section 6, and by the time we hammer this out, we'd already be gearing up in 2 1/2 years for the next contract. This is not a cave at all on my part. I'm particularly happy about the cap on rj's and the top end JV language. This is the first time the contract has actually had a hard CAP on the number of rj's, and the block hour limit tied to mainline RSM's. That is big.
By the end of this 3 1/2 year deal, it will put us at or slightly above SW 737 pay for our 737 pilots.
I'm leaning toward a yes vote, but not before I attend a road show, to get some questions answered.

 

[Jar Jar]

Yup. Why you think they put alliance paint on the big planes? Theyve been creating brand awareness and now they are gonna start moving to sell tickets. Mark my words. One day your customers will buy their tickets on skyteam.com and they wont care whether its delta or airfrance. Game over.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

5. Alaska Air----Delta currently can codeshare with AK and can purchase up to 50% of the seats on a plane (up to 86 seats). That will now be pushed back to only 35%, except on flights from SEA to MSP and ATL, where those planes can still have 50%.

Snap, Skywest orders 300 CRJ 900's to be operated as Alaska Air Express out of SEA, MSP and ATL.

6. 35% of newhires in classes have to come from ALPA DCI carriers.

65% of newhires to come from non ALPA DCI carriers.

 

[LearLove]

The Reverend hints at making an end run around scope wrt to C-series jets.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/republic-airways-ceo-talks-bombardier-204425567.html


MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- The CEO of feeder airline operator Republic Airways said on Wednesday that new Bombardier jets could be flown in the U.S. in a partnership with one of the big airline alliances.

Republic ordered 40 of the new C-Series jets being developed by Montreal-based Bombardier, which is aiming to begin delivering them to other customers by the end of next year.

Republic's main business is flying smaller jets for big airlines such as Delta and United. But the new Bombardier plane has 100 to 149 seats, a size typically flown by the major airlines themselves, not by feeder carriers.

Pilot contracts at all the major airlines bar partnerships with feeder carriers flying planes that big. Republic CEO Bryan Bedford was asked at a regional airline convention on Wednesday what his airline plans to do with those jets.

One possibility is that "it could fit into a global alliance as (a low-cost carrier) component to a broader North American strategy for a SkyTeam or Star or oneworld," Bedford said in an interview.

He declined to talk in detail about Republic's plans for the jet, which is supposed to begin arriving in late 2015. His comments appeared to suggest that Republic might operate those planes in partnership with one of the big three airline alliances. SkyTeam is anchored in the U.S. by Delta, the Star Alliance has United Airlines and US Airways, and oneworld has American.

"I still think that what we're going to see is a worldview where a low-cost carrier can participate in domestic alliances in 2015, and that there'll be a need for that product here," he said. Republic also owns Denver-based Frontier Airlines, which is it trying to sell or spin off. Bedford said the C-Series order will stay with Republic, though, and not go with Frontier. Barclays will begin marketing Frontier to potential investors around mid-July, Bedford said.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I have come to respect your level-headedness on this sometimes maddening board. However, it seems like you're starting to drink the DALPA Cool Aid and leaning to endorse this insult of a TA. It was rushed through so RA could get larger RJs to feed JFK and to obtain the 717's. The slight raises are funded by a reduction in PS contributions in a profitable company.

What's wrong with a NO vote and telling DALPA to go back and try to do a little better? This thing wasn't even expected to be finished until next January anyway. I'm willing to vote NO and wait and see, but I don't think RA wants to - that gives us leverage. Any future offers can not be less without royally pissing off the pilot group.

Interested in your thoughts.

I guess the membership could tell them NO, and we all could go back to the bargaining again. I just don't know if the next offer would be as good, it might be. That's a chance you have to take. I looked at our whole contract, and there were many problems. Not just one or two, many. I don't know how you can try to fix all of them to 100%, and still get a big raise and park all RJs. If this were a 5 year contract, for 19% and giving away RJs without tying them to any growth, then it probably would be a NO from me. Instead, I look around at what the other legacies have done for all of us lately (zero), then look at our rates within 3 year with this TA, look at better JV and CS scope, parking a lot of 50 seaters, and improvements on many parts of our current contract, and then try to think how much more can we realistically get? I guess we could try. I still am awaiting a roadshow here in ATL. I do have some questions.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The Reverend hints at making an end run around scope wrt to C-series jets.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/republic-airways-ceo-talks-bombardier-204425567.html


MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- The CEO of feeder airline operator Republic Airways said on Wednesday that new Bombardier jets could be flown in the U.S. in a partnership with one of the big airline alliances.

Republic ordered 40 of the new C-Series jets being developed by Montreal-based Bombardier, which is aiming to begin delivering them to other customers by the end of next year.

Republic's main business is flying smaller jets for big airlines such as Delta and United. But the new Bombardier plane has 100 to 149 seats, a size typically flown by the major airlines themselves, not by feeder carriers.

Pilot contracts at all the major airlines bar partnerships with feeder carriers flying planes that big. Republic CEO Bryan Bedford was asked at a regional airline convention on Wednesday what his airline plans to do with those jets.

One possibility is that "it could fit into a global alliance as (a low-cost carrier) component to a broader North American strategy for a SkyTeam or Star or oneworld," Bedford said in an interview.

He declined to talk in detail about Republic's plans for the jet, which is supposed to begin arriving in late 2015. His comments appeared to suggest that Republic might operate those planes in partnership with one of the big three airline alliances. SkyTeam is anchored in the U.S. by Delta, the Star Alliance has United Airlines and US Airways, and oneworld has American.

"I still think that what we're going to see is a worldview where a low-cost carrier can participate in domestic alliances in 2015, and that there'll be a need for that product here," he said. Republic also owns Denver-based Frontier Airlines, which is it trying to sell or spin off. Bedford said the C-Series order will stay with Republic, though, and not go with Frontier. Barclays will begin marketing Frontier to potential investors around mid-July, Bedford said.

He is fishing for anything. ANY ALLIANCE? He's hoping AA let's them in, because if AA doesn't get with USAir, he might have a chance and the newly emerged AA after BK. Maybe he can do the next Indy Air? Smashed like an ant.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Yup. Why you think they put alliance paint on the big planes? Theyve been creating brand awareness and now they are gonna start moving to sell tickets. Mark my words. One day your customers will buy their tickets on skyteam.com and they wont care whether its delta or airfrance. Game over.

Then it's good that Dalpa got tighter (better) INTL Codeshare or Joint Venture language in the TA?


Bye Bye---General Lee