Delta TA on SCOPE

[Crash Pad]

Section 1 Scope:
Delta branded, painted, or ticketed planes or passengers will be flown by Delta pilots.

Look one line and I don't even charge 500 an hour. I'd even take a 5 dollar pay cut for that line

 

[JustaNumber]

Which makes more sense than putting 90 seats in a 90 seater and flying it yourself.

Just a minor correction, but a CRJ900 with single-class configuration (which DAL does not want) typically can seat only 86. (Although I suppose you could try to squeeze 90 seats in if you're flying in China).

 

[Homer Jay]

This TA looks like a POS. PLEASE do not vote this in. I doubt the CAL/UAL MEC would even allow this to get voted on by the line pilots.

 

[Rough67]

History says -->. Pay rates come and go... Profits come and go... Scope/seats/jobs just go. Voting NO.

Card going in (they aren't hearing me "loud and clear").

The 50 seaters are going on their own, and the company will get more mainline aircraft regardless of our vote.

Have a nice day.

 

[wms]

Sorry folks, but if you vote this I see us all heavily regretting it within 5 years ie same farking mistake made with the 50 seaters. The fact that my scumbag CEO sent all UAL pilots a letter TODAY telling us that this DAL TA is the new normal says it all about how management feels. Vote this and we ALL will regret it.

And for god sakes GL don't trust any "negotiators notepad". Bullet points sponsored by ALPA lead to numb nuts at CAL approving Contract '02

Ditto, unfortunately I think it will pass. I'm tired of being the low-cost scape goat so ml mgmt can avoid raising prices.

 

[jtf]

Are there any limits on contracting out 70 seat or greater turboprops? Or any other size? Can they replace the 50 jets with turboprops for the routes that are still better served by smaller airplanes without counting against the the limits already discussed?

 

[General Lee]

You realize if you buy us ( JetBlue), you get 190ish mainline jets added and now gain a bunch of Rjs in the process... Oh, and no new pilots.

The 717s were just announced, and there is a LIMIT to the number of RJs, both 76 seats and 50/70. The total number drastically goes down, which is good. Can Delta do that without the "trade up" to 76 seaters? I don't know, maybe there are iron clad leases on the 50 seaters. I guess you could just park them and still pay for them.....


Remember, I am not very happy about this TA so far, but we are talking about the scope section here. The limits made on INTL scope, and AK scope are a lot better. As far as the RJs go, there is a problem, and it also contains the problem of what to do with those 50 seaters that may or may not go away. Tell me what to do if you can't dump the leases.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Are there any limits on contracting out 70 seat or greater turboprops? Or any other size? Can they replace the 50 jets with turboprops for the routes that are still better served by smaller airplanes without counting against the the limits already discussed?

I think there is a limit on large turboprops. I'll have to go look again.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

This dip$$/t sold scope for nothing. Riddle me this smart guy. How does SWA compete with no RJs? Thank god they bought us or we would be selling the 717 to Pinnacle so we could compete.

Your argument is that it is cheaper to put 76 seats in a 90 seater, then pay someone at a profit to fly them.

Which makes more sense than putting 90 seats in a 90 seater and flying it yourself. Maybe Delta is buying leverage on the cheap.

A used 717 is a lot cheaper than a new CR9 with 90 seats. Used MD90s are a lot cheaper than a new CR9 with 90 seats. The MD90s, including the engines, are about $8 million total, and DL is actively looking to buy every one of them out there that is flyable. (the 29 Saudi MD90s were sold to Aerosale, and might be parted out. They had a different configuration and cockpit anyway). So, instead of making a 90 seat CR9 that probably wouldn't have a first class, or getting the even more expensive CRJ1000 (some are flying in Europe now), they are getting used planes that are cheaper and can be fixed up to be even more comfortable and flyable for at least 10 more years. 4 or 5 used 717s or MD90s per NEW CRJ1000 or CR9 with 90 seats.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Sorry folks, but if you vote this I see us all heavily regretting it within 5 years ie same farking mistake made with the 50 seaters. The fact that my scumbag CEO sent all UAL pilots a letter TODAY telling us that this DAL TA is the new normal says it all about how management feels. Vote this and we ALL will regret it.

And for god sakes GL don't trust any "negotiators notepad". Bullet points sponsored by ALPA lead to numb nuts at CAL approving Contract '02

I just want to see a summary of what the ALPA guys were thinking. I can try to read the TA, but I would have to hire a lawyer to do that.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[nwaf16dude]

I am trying to read through this TA, lots of lawyer-speak so it can be tough at times. But, I zeroed in on Scope, and here are some things I think I got:



1. for 76 seaters, the MAX limit will be 223 planes, the old was 256 total 70 or 76 seaters, 153 which were 76 seaters.


2. for 50-70 seaters, the max will be 125. (how many 50 seaters are there now? Hundreds. How many 70 seaters total? Now it looks like there will be only 125 total 50 or 70 seaters, and they have to be at that number by 2014 I believe.


3. There has to be 1.25 new mainline entry planes (either 717 or A319) for every additional 76 seater added, but it still can only go to the max of 223. Right now there are 153 76 seaters, so if DL gets a bunch of new 717s and A319s, they may be allowed to go up to 223. IF they don't get any new 717s or A319s, the limit still stands at 153 76 seaters, which is what they have now. IOW, they have to get new entry planes (717 or A319) to get anymore 76 seaters.



4. Foreign Scope---DL was allowed to codeshare or have Joint Ventures and have 50% of the seats onboard the other carriers' planes. Now it will be reduced to 40%.


5. Alaska Air----Delta currently can codeshare with AK and can purchase up to 50% of the seats on a plane (up to 86 seats). That will now be pushed back to only 35%, except on flights from SEA to MSP and ATL, where those planes can still have 50%.

6. 35% of newhires in classes have to come from ALPA DCI carriers.



I think most of that is right, from a cursory glance. If I made any mistakes, please correct me. Yes, there are more 76 seat RJs, but there will be a lot less RJs total, and that is the main deal right now. Sure, the 50 seaters were going away anyway, but Delta supposedly is on the hook for them for another 10 years. Why is that? Good question. What to do about it? You can always park them or continue to fly them at a loss. Or, you can trade them up, bring down the total number via the RJ manufacturer, and clean up most of the problem. If larger planes are guaranteed (no 717s or extra A319s, no 76 seaters), and the total number of RJs goes down, then that helps.


Overall, I like the Scope section a lot more than I like the compensation part.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I hope I'm wrong, but I think you are missing 102 51-70 seat aircraft. As I read it, the end state is 125 50 seaters, 102 51-70, and 223 76 seaters. That's 450 total DCI.

 

[waveflyer]

How about we allow unlimited 76-seat planes...flown by DELTA pilots. Not enough DELTA pilots to fly hundreds of LARGE RJs? Perhaps we could hire hundreds of DCI pilots.

For once, quit diluting and DISOLVING Delta Air Lines.



(I'm going to, stick this in its own thread.)

Great post!

 

[waveflyer]

Because it's not economically feasible. Doing so would place Delta at an extreme competitive disadvantage against the other carriers who can outsource that flying at a much lower cost. Remember, it's not just the pilots. Even if the pilots agreed to do it at regional rates, they still have the FAs, rampers, mechanics, customer service agents, etc. Paying mainline benefits, wages, and work rules to all of those people to handle the 76-seat operation while all of their competitors are outsourcing that same flying for a much lower cost is not a recipe for profitability.

If this is your mindset- you really won't fit in at SWA- the whole model is about quality, well paid people in all positions will perform and more than earn that wage.
I completely disagree with this theory- except that it would put delta at a small disadvantage- but CAL allowed no >50 seaters, they did well- SWA allows none- DELTA has the most profitable network-
If change is ever going to happen IT WILL START WITH DELTA PILOTS TODAY.

I couldn't disagree with overall argument above more bc it has virtually no end.

 

[KarmaPolice]

If this is your mindset- you really won't fit in at SWA- the whole model is about quality, well paid people in all positions will perform and more than earn that wage.
I completely disagree with this theory- except that it would put delta at a small disadvantage- but CAL allowed no >50 seaters, they did well- SWA allows none- DELTA has the most profitable network-
If change is ever going to happen IT WILL START WITH DELTA PILOTS TODAY.

I couldn't disagree with overall argument above more bc it has virtually no end.

What a strange idea!

If any of you lived out west, there is a tire chain called "Les Schwab". It's profitable because the workers, I swear, are the happiest people alive. It's noticeable. It's NOT like walking into Walmart or McDonalds. It's the opposite. The person behind the register isn't a zombie who hates their life because they get paid crap and have no long term devotion to the place they spend most of their waking hours at. They have a sense of belonging, and they will do ANYTHING they can to keep you coming back to the place they work at.

I get that every airline besides SWA has been Walmartized as much as management has been able to. It just scares me when I see my fellow workers being willing to do the Walmartization for them.

 

[amcnd]

What a strange idea!

If any of you lived out west, there is a tire chain called "Les Schwab". It's profitable because the workers, I swear, are the happiest people alive. It's noticeable. It's NOT like walking into Walmart or McDonalds. It's the opposite. The person behind the register isn't a zombie who hates their life because they get paid crap and have no long term devotion to the place they spend most of their waking hours at. They have a sense of belonging, and they will do ANYTHING they can to keep you coming back to the place they work at.

I get that every airline besides SWA has been Walmartized as much as management has been able to. It just scares me when I see my fellow workers being willing to do the Walmartization for them.

Except Les Schwab would only do my back brakes on my "airport" car if i bought 4 new tires from them.. (were they bald.. So so. But i only drive it 3-4 times a month. They said they did'nt want to "damage"my bald tires doing my brakes..??? Lame excuse.) so i went down the street to Big O tires. They had no problem just doing my back brakes.. Saved me $600... They both have free popcorn, free wifi, free coffee... Kind of sounds like the airlines....