Delta TA on SCOPE

[BILL LUMBERG]

Holy Cow I can't believe the Delta guys are even considering this TA!

Should be a VERY EASY no vote based on scope alone.

Hope this serves as the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back with the decert effort.

Absolutely disgraceful that ALPA sent this to the pilots. It will be even more disgraceful the the pilots of DAL ratify the agreement. If DAL pilots approve this TA you will have lowered the profession to an all new low.

Yep,

20 years ago it was SWA working without a pension for what our flight attendants would make in a year. No holding pay, taxiing fast, loading bags....the old can-do spirit UNDERCUT this business, so don't go lecturing me or any other Delta Pilot about lowering the profession.

What lofty perch are you parked at Wolfman Pack?

 

[redflyer65]

Funny Red....

Talk about SJS over in HerbTurd land...You clowns were all celebrating getting the 737 "heavy" just a few months ago and make an International trip look like (cue Shatner)..."The Final Frontier".

Most of the posts on this thread are from SWA Pracks like yourself who have no dog in the fight. Go back to screwing your AirTran brothers or beating your wife or boyfriend and let the adults talk ok?

Bill,

I'm sorry I hit a nerve buddy. I just tired of the Deltoids coming on here and pounding the table about how you will hold the line ANY additional scope and at the same time blast past the SW payrates.

Now you're trying to defend this TURD that ALPA dropped on your doorstep? Then step up and let's hear you defend it tough guy. I'm ready to hear the 'adults' defend how good this is for you and conversely good for the industry as a whole. Ya, you might live in a hole in South Georgia but it actually does affect everyone else in the industry.....and you know it, therefore you are completely defensive about it.

How is cutting your PS good for ANYONE at Delta? Paying for your new payrates with PS, that's plain genius right there.

What have SW pilots sold out for a larger 737? Let me help you...nothing. Nice try though.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I am not defending anything about this TA.....and sorry Jackhole, not in Atlanta....are you on Herb Time.....oh that's right....EVERYBODY at SWA is on outdated Herb time.

You and your Barf Orange crew come on here and troll on our TA page like it makes ANY BIT OF EFFING difference in your world....

Or did I hit a nerve WITH YOU and Gary is pointing at this TA as your future?

 

[boeing717]

I am not defending anything about this TA.....and sorry Jackhole, not in Atlanta....are you on Herb Time.....oh that's right....EVERYBODY at SWA is on outdated Herb time.

You and your Barf Orange crew come on here and troll on our TA page like it makes ANY BIT OF EFFING difference in your world....

Or did I hit a nerve WITH YOU and Gary is pointing at this TA as your future?

You really need to relax. Red really got to you and it shows. Relax and don't let him get to you. It is a ********************ty deal and you have to admit you are giving in. ALPA did it again for you.

 

[Flopgut]

Ya, you might live in a hole in South Georgia but it actually does affect everyone else in the industry.....and you know it, therefore you are completely defensive about it.

I can't believe a SW pilot is writing this!? Unbelieveable. You guys flew so F-ing cheap, for so F-ing long..... Do you not realize that?!

 

[redflyer65]

Flop,

My point is simple when you stip all the emotion away, I really hope the Delta guys get a better deal than this.

-Decrease the scope
-Better pay without sacrificing PS, etc.

I would like to see the same with UCAL. It's honestly good for everyone.

 

[waveflyer]

I can't believe a SW pilot is writing this!? Unbelieveable. You guys flew so F-ing cheap, for so F-ing long..... Do you not realize that?!

Go ahead, you and delta fly cheap. Just don't outsource so that you make others fly cheap for you.

 

[waveflyer]

Delta= sellouts.

If this passes is there any other word for it? All the promises that the new crowd there gets it. If this passes, it's unmitigated proof that DALPA doesn't. And I'll take every opportunity to point that out. Every.

 

[777forever]

Scope is the ratio of Mainline to DCI flying by BLOCK HOURS not by number of aircraft. With this TA the Mainline to DCI block hour ratio increases by 57% in favor of mainline. Start thinking analytically instead of emotionally folks. Heck DCI could have an unlimited amount of 200 seaters of DCI block hours were limited to no more than 1%


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[777forever]

Now that Delta has several domestic hubs, you'd be surprised by how much more point to point our system is. That's an old argument. We make a lot of money on both our domestic and international system.

RJs are required to connect passengers to hubs to fly an international flight? Some smaller markets deserve RJ service, but DELTA is flying NINE RJS a day between Cinci and LaGuardia. NINE!!!! And that's just one route. WE DON'T NEED THIS MANY RJS. WE CAN FEED OUR NETWORK WITH MAINLINE JETS.

Really? I'm sure your vast amount of experience with airline financials and marketing on the corporate side helped you come to that conclusion.


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[General Lee]

You really need to relax. Red really got to you and it shows. Relax and don't let him get to you. It is a ********************ty deal and you have to admit you are giving in. ALPA did it again for you.

I wouldn't say we're giving in. I would say that we had A LOT OF MAJOR PROBLEMS with our current contract thanks to BK, and it is really hard to rid ourselves of everything in one contract change. You can try to do that, and then wait 5 years like AA did. Or, you can try to improve different sections and then get a short contract so you can improve more in the shortest amount of time. I don't really like the pay rates part, but other parts of the TA are fairly good. I am still waiting to hear more from the union and get their take, but overall the TA did improve many sections of the current contract.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Now that Delta has several domestic hubs, you'd be surprised by how much more point to point our system is. That's an old argument. We make a lot of money on both our domestic and international system.

RJs are required to connect passengers to hubs to fly an international flight? Some smaller markets deserve RJ service, but DELTA is flying NINE RJS a day between Cinci and LaGuardia. NINE!!!! And that's just one route. WE DON'T NEED THIS MANY RJS. WE CAN FEED OUR NETWORK WITH MAINLINE JETS.

With 150 fewer RJs in the new TA and at least 88 717s coming, I would think CVG to LGA has a good chance of switching back to mainline.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Go ahead, you and delta fly cheap. Just don't outsource so that you make others fly cheap for you.

Hey Man: couldn't agree more! We'll do it just like you were all too happy to do it! DAL ALPA might just go ahead and make this a 10 year contract? Then it would be exactly like you guys.

Outsource? Yeah, bad stuff. But even if DAL signs this small step in the right direction, it's going to allow UAL ALPA to try and improve on it, and we have a hand of cards at the table that can make that happen.

This effects DAL pilots, and then UAL pilots next most. It would be nice if you SW guys could just STFU for a little while.

 

[boeing717]

I wouldn't say we're giving in. I would say that we had A LOT OF MAJOR PROBLEMS with our current contract thanks to BK, and it is really hard to rid ourselves of everything in one contract change. You can try to do that, and then wait 5 years like AA did. Or, you can try to improve different sections and then get a short contract so you can improve more in the shortest amount of time. I don't really like the pay rates part, but other parts of the TA are fairly good. I am still waiting to hear more from the union and get their take, but overall the TA did improve many sections of the current contract.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I agree with you. However, Delta needs to get their own union. ALPA cannot represent you and at the same time represent the regionals that fly your passengers. It is like having the same attorney when getting a divorce.

 

[CRJ puppy]

I hope I'm wrong, but I think you are missing 102 51-70 seat aircraft. As I read it, the end state is 125 50 seaters, 102 51-70, and 223 76 seaters. That's 450 total DCI.

This is correct. By 2015, with the additional 717's or 319's.

Oh. Plus the DCI/Mainline block hr restrictions.

Still a decrease of approx 150 50 seaters over 2.5-3 yrs

 

[waveflyer]

This effects DAL pilots, and then UAL pilots next most. It would be nice if you SW guys could just STFU for a little while.

I'm sure you would like me to STFU -
You're wrong^^^ this deal affects everyone in the industry. All this does is get rid of a 150 50-seaters that are fuel priced out of the market anyway for raises far less than what DALPA pilots deserve.

As a SW pilot I'm, in the short term, far more affected by the largest legacy network pilots still making less than us than scope- but I talk as a former legacy guy. With the understanding that outsourcing undermines wages severely in the long run.

 

[Flyer1015]

Did a SWA pilot just call a Delta pilot a "sellout"???

 

[79%N1]

Flop,

My point is simple when you stip all the emotion away, I really hope the Delta guys get a better deal than this.

-Decrease the scope
-Better pay without sacrificing PS, etc.

I would like to see the same with UCAL. It's honestly good for everyone.

How is it a decrease in scope? Ths TA will gut every one of DAL's regional partners, some will go out of business. You can argue that is a good thing (not for those that will lose their jobs and careers for the junior fo's that will be forced out of the industry) but this TA crushes regionals with the scope. Less RJ's, but more seats (more revenue, better bottom line for DAL) is hardly caving on scope. Where are you guys getting this notion. The DCI regionals will fly half of what they did, or less.

 

[777forever]

How is it a decrease in scope? Ths TA will gut every one of DAL's regional partners, some will go out of business. You can argue that is a good thing (not for those that will lose their jobs and careers for the junior fo's that will be forced out of the industry) but this TA crushes regionals with the scope. Less RJ's, but more seats (more revenue, better bottom line for DAL) is hardly caving on scope. Where are you guys getting this notion. The DCI regionals will fly half of what they did, or less.

Because they have tunnel vision and all they see is OMG 70 more 76 seaters!!!! Kinda like when you got the PBS TA it was like OMG PBS!!!!!

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[Freebrd]

Because they have tunnel vision and all they see is OMG 70 more 76 seaters!!!! Kinda like when you got the PBS TA it was like OMG PBS!!!!!

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you ever get tired of yourself, well, we do

 

[waveflyer]

Did a SWA pilot just call a Delta pilot a "sellout"???

A former legacy pilot who had his job outsourced called a delta pilot a sellout- yes. Until they prove me wrong, I'll continue to. Those that hold onto the pride and CONSIDERABLE achievements of DALPA are toting achievements at least 15 years old.

Man, was I an incredible athlete 15 years ago- you guys should have seen it.

NOW is all that matters.

 

[jonjuan]

Man, was I an incredible athlete 15 years ago- you guys should have seen it.

Well, at the Speshel Olyimpiks, everyone's a winner. :nuts:

 

[Dan Roman]

I'm sure you would like me to STFU -
You're wrong^^^ this deal affects everyone in the industry. All this does is get rid of a 150 50-seaters that are fuel priced out of the market anyway for raises far less than what DALPA pilots deserve.

As a SW pilot I'm, in the short term, far more affected by the largest legacy network pilots still making less than us than scope- but I talk as a former legacy guy. With the understanding that outsourcing undermines wages severely in the long run.

Wave, help me out here because I expect more from you than the Tankerclown/Outerlimits type SWA folks on here.
It's on here elsewhere that a DAL 737 Captain get's $249 an hour (hourly rate plus dc match) a SWA Captain get's $236 when combining hourly and 401k match. I 'm quoting PCL by the way. Clearly they are reducing the RJ flying with this contract and some of the biggest gains benefit the reserve (read junior) pilots. They also wisely made this a short contract so they will be able to get back to the table and build on the gains they made.

So how the hell is this a sellout, particularly in a weak economy??

 

[Dan Roman]

Well, at the Speshel Olyimpiks, everyone's a winner. :nuts:

I have a special needs son, you are a jerk. He's not.

 

[Scoot 11]

Did a SWA pilot just call a Delta pilot a "sellout"???

Yes. Quite humorous, since SWA has only since 2006 been in the lead in pay.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure you would like me to STFU -
You're wrong^^^ this deal affects everyone in the industry. All this does is get rid of a 150 50-seaters that are fuel priced out of the market anyway for raises far less than what DALPA pilots deserve.

As a SW pilot I'm, in the short term, far more affected by the largest legacy network pilots still making less than us than scope- but I talk as a former legacy guy. With the understanding that outsourcing undermines wages severely in the long run.

The problem was those 50 seaters have leases on them for another 10 years. Just like you had leases on the 717s through 2017. The only way the company could get rid of them and NOT pay the leases was to trade UP. Sounds crazy, and of course I would like to know who did that. Some say they could get rid of 50 seaters in PNCL's BK, but those are the newest 50 seaters out there (with the most cycles left), so they would be among the 125 allowed to stay. (150 will be parked)

Your company did what it could to rid themselves of a plane they didn't want (717s), and my company is trying to do the same. I don't really like the results, but it does lower the number of total RJs, and shifts a lot of the flying over to mainline (percentage wise). Less total RJs is good.

The UAL guys who complain about this need to fix their own deal first. The CAL guys who didn't think there would be anything over 50 seats were surprised when Smallstick just threw UA Express flight numbers over the CR7s and E170s and flew them through EWR and IAH.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Scoot 11]

Delta= sellouts.

If this passes is there any other word for it? All the promises that the new crowd there gets it. If this passes, it's unmitigated proof that DALPA doesn't. And I'll take every opportunity to point that out. Every.

You are a total tool! Your company/union SOLD out this industry for YEARS. Get back to lifting weights and sodomizing your boyfriend which you so highly brag about when you're not on here putting down the rest of the industry. You bring nothing constructive except tough guy talk from a guy who paid to work at an airline who undercut this industry for YEARS!

 

[General Lee]

Wave, help me out here because I expect more from you than the Tankerclown/Outerlimits type SWA folks on here.
It's on here elsewhere that a DAL 737 Captain get's $249 an hour (hourly rate plus dc match) a SWA Captain get's $236 when combining hourly and 401k match. I 'm quoting PCL by the way. Clearly they are reducing the RJ flying with this contract and some of the biggest gains benefit the reserve (read junior) pilots. They also wisely made this a short contract so they will be able to get back to the table and build on the gains they made.

So how the hell is this a sellout, particularly in a weak economy??

Dan,

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[777forever]

Dan,

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Spot on General, spot on. Well said.

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[nwaf16dude]

Dan,

The senior guys would get a 13% pay bump for the remaining few years of their career (19.5% by 2015), and the junior guys get 717s. If 88 717s are taken (and 17 DC9s are dumped eventually), that means 71 planes will get new Captains (widebody FOs or narrowbody FOs will upgrade, helping out QOL, and allowing junior guys to move up to widebodies if they want, more of a pay raise), and that isn't counting the MD90s and 737-900s coming (some of those will replace outgoing 757s and 767-300 domestic planes). There will be movement, newhires, and higher pay for all, all in a 3 year contract. New openers would be exchanged again in 2.5 years, when analysts are saying Delta could be making billions per year in profits.

Scope is a two edged sword. Yes, more 76 seaters would be allowed, but overall RJ numbers would decrease by 150. Tougher codeshare and Joint Venture language is included. Work rules are improved. Yet, some want a 30% raise now, and they want to fly the 76 seaters, a part of the industry that we do not participate in now, and that is struggling because the Legacies are paying less for current regional contracts.

We are still awaiting ALPA to give a presentation on what the TA means and how it could affect us. High emotions on this board, which is understandable.



Bye Bye---General Lee

There are enough MD-90's in the inbound pipeline to more than replace the remaining DC-9 seats when they depart, so the 717's will be growth airplanes, unless there are more airplanes leaving that we haven't heard about.