Delta TA on SCOPE

[FBN0223]

I'm voting a very enthusiastic "NO" on this TA. Accepting a pay raise that barely tops the inflation rate, while allowing even more 76 seaters to fly under the Delta brand with non-Delta pilots, is unacceptable. It demonstrates how ALPA is out of touch with the membership. Yet, even before the spin machine comes to life in the form of road shows, we have Delta pilots defending mediocrity and the continuation of massive outsourcing.

I hope all the easily bought yes voters/leaning yes voters soon realize that sub-standard contracts will forever be in our future until one pilot group finally says "NO".

Stop defending mediocrity and vote NO!!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

I'm voting a very enthusiastic "NO" on this TA. Accepting a pay raise that barely tops the inflation rate, while allowing even more 76 seaters to fly under the Delta brand with non-Delta pilots, is unacceptable. It demonstrates how ALPA is out of touch with the membership. Yet, even before the spin machine comes to life in the form of road shows, we have Delta pilots defending mediocrity and the continuation of massive outsourcing.

I hope all the easily bought yes voters/leaning yes voters soon realize that sub-standard contracts will forever be in our future until one pilot group finally says "NO".

Stop defending mediocrity and vote NO!!!!!!

There is very little leverage out there. A "guess" that DL may do something soon. Nobody else helping with pattern bargaining at all. A NMB that will not rescue us, not even close. This TA brings us up to SWA wages by the end of it's short 3 year duration, and caps scope with ratios that favor mainline going forward. You want to climb the ladder 3 steps at a time, which is risky. Again, the leverage you think we have isn't there because you don't know what future plans are, and our "peers" in the eye of the NMB haven't helped our cause at all. Tell me where the spin is? Is it the truth or not?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

GL is right......

Ask yourselves what help we get when the Republicans speak the usual "It's the economy stupid!" this fall...

And any of you monkeys think a GOP president will support labor should move to Wisconsin to learn the great heartburn they have for skilled workers who can do things they can't....

Voting yes only because of that......

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Cue the jealous jack hole Wave in 3.....2.......1.....mark!

 

[fam62c]

Nice distraction General and Fam-
I will not drift toward whatever issues you might have with Swa - I'm speaking from the experience of 6 airlines, including a legacy.
You want to hate on Swa - start another thread and hate on them all day long.
As coach just said- we ALL ARE ACCOUNTABLE IN THIS BUSINESS.
And your distractions are not the issue at hand- do not pretend that the CURRENT DELTA TA WILL NOT HAVE RAMIFICATIONS FOR ALL OTHER CARRIERS- it is absolutely every pilots business what you do -and we're all curious if this generation of DALPA pilots will live up to its responsibilities as the most influential pilot union in the US.
Or do you just want all the pride of being DALPA with none of the responsibility?

What you do now gives every other airline permission to go a step further.

-900's were only allowed under bankruptcy- if you allow more -900's in exchange for 50's you can bet every other major will have leverage and a good argument to do the same-

Or, you can fly the new -900's yourself and apply your own leverage to get that done

It's no distraction you know exactly what I'm saying and you don't have an answer. But don't sweat it bro, myself and many AT pilots agree with you 100%. We hope the DAL pilots reject this thing and protect the profession as much as you do, believe me.

 

[GogglesPisano]

If you take emotion out of the equation, look at how our peers are doing in their negotiations, and take a deep breath, a "Yes" vote is the only way to go.

 

[flyboyike]

There is very little leverage out there.

In our discussion a few months back you seemed to indicate that your pilot group had all the leverage in the world. I disagreed, but it seems we're now somewhat reversed in that I now think you have more leverage than you realize.

 

[waveflyer]

Fam- I'm just not changing the subject on this thread
Airline #6-
But I hear you

 

[waveflyer]

If you take emotion out of the equation, look at how our peers are doing in their negotiations, and take a deep breath, a "Yes" vote is the only way to go.

It's a well crafted TA- of course- they've put you guys in a spot balancing wage increases that you've all earned and the industry needs with doubling down on more outsourced -900's that the industry will be hurt by if you validate that part of the BK contract.
It's your call- but I vehemently disagree with your vote as very short sighted.

It was a deep breath Yes vote in the 90's that started this- along with a position paper or three as well.

If you really get the downward pressure on wages outsourcing provides us all- there is NO way you can vote yes on this. I haven't responded to every bit of literature that has been provided - but Ive read it- taken many deep breaths and would still place a logical No vote if I had one.

The only emotion I feel is sincere disappointment that after all the promises that DALPA pilots actually got outsourcing and it's issues, that DALPA might actually pass this. Amazing.

Do you guys look at the nose of the airplane when you fly too- probably how you landed on a taxi way.

Think. Long term.

 

[waveflyer]

GL is right......

Ask yourselves what help we get when the Republicans speak the usual "It's the economy stupid!" this fall...

And any of you monkeys think a GOP president will support labor should move to Wisconsin to learn the great heartburn they have for skilled workers who can do things they can't....

Voting yes only because of that......

I don't agree with the yes vote. Bc Obama will get re-elected. Romney is the R's version of Kerry. A lame duck nominee. But write it down, take a picture- I agree with much of what you said- except for the chickensh/t way you plan on voting.

 

[waveflyer]

There is very little leverage out there. A "guess" that DL may do something soon. Nobody else helping with pattern bargaining at all. A NMB that will not rescue us, not even close. This TA brings us up to SWA wages by the end of it's short 3 year duration, and caps scope with ratios that favor mainline going forward. You want to climb the ladder 3 steps at a time, which is risky. Again, the leverage you think we have isn't there because you don't know what future plans are, and our "peers" in the eye of the NMB haven't helped our cause at all. Tell me where the spin is? Is it the truth or not?


Bye Bye---General Lee

This would be a great TA with one VERY IMPORTANT change:
All new -900's will be flown by DALPA pilots, and every existing -900 will transition to mainline as contracts expire- no limits on -900's.

As it is- you'll cripple both UAL and AAs ability to ward off the large RJ scope battles they're fighting.

 

[trip]

GL is right......

Ask yourselves what help we get when the Republicans speak the usual "It's the economy stupid!" this fall...

And any of you monkeys think a GOP president will support labor should move to Wisconsin to learn the great heartburn they have for skilled workers who can do things they can't....

Voting yes only because of that......

Blue state drama queen, has been since 1988. Walker will win the recall because the people are tired of supporting those so called "Skilled Workers" while they bankrupt the state.
Try Again.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It sucks for our generation of pilots that we walked into this mess of outsourcing and scope.

Those out there on the fence on this TA:

LET'S make some sacrifices to get this career field back closer to what it once was. This TA is not reducing 50 seaters. THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD. This TA is capitalizing on their imminent death.

If Delta REALLY wants to fly the 200s until 2024, then let's call their bluff!! LET THEM! This management team is EFFING smart and ONLY wants profits. With those expensive checks coming due, let's let them figure another way out to get rid of them besides US giving them more of OUR FLYING. We will give momentum to UAL negotiators to do the same. This is our CHANCE!!!!

We DO NOT need to let them fly one more 76 seater. LOOK AT OUR ROUTES. Pull up Toronto! Look at Vancouver BC. Look at the flow from LGA. They've got enough to feed mainline and THEN SOME. Any more, and it's MORE pure outsourcing of OURS, OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, COUSINS, AND CHILDREN'S jobs. Those RJ pilots flying our routes deserve to be on our list making what we make.

Let's stop it right here. YES we take it in the crotch if we vote NO in some ways, but look at what we get. We lose the "TIME VALUE OF MONEY", we go to the NMB. But in the end we will have put this career field back on a SOLID ground. WE SHUT DOWN THE PUPPY MILL REGIONAL PILOT FACTORIES. Which is the greatest threat to our careers.

WE WILL get SWA rates from the NMB, AND we can't be forced to give away more flying.

If we were getting a huge pay raise, I could understand considering this. But this is just getting us to SWA in three years from now!!! WE CAN DO BETTER!!!! If you turned it down, the company and the association are still bound to exchange openers 270 days prior to the amendable date. That would happen immediately.

Yes voters like GL, 777 Forever, Googles P. Please consider this!!!!

 

[waveflyer]

I am digesting the position paper this enthusiastic "line pilot" has written. I am skeptical of much of it, but feel for credibility sake, I must give it fair consideration or my own arguments fall flat.

I have one question -

the limit on -900's currently is up to 255 correct? But isn't that 255 -700's OR -900's (config'd to 76 seats)?

That's my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that in order to get to 255 -900's they'd have to trade in all of their -700's? Is that good information?

It would also be helpful to know How many RJs delta currently has flying for you?

Thank you

 

[FBN0223]

Leverage? Remember Delta bought an oil refinery, invested itself numerous for foreign carriers, is in the process of bailing out Pinnacle, spent and continues to spend billions updating aircraft and facilities, and is making money. One might think that a much more significant portion of pay restoration was finally due.

To be honest, I may have been able to accept the small pay restoration if we hadn't given them an additional 70 76-seat aircraft. Did anyone, when filling out the contract survey, ask for more outsourcing? Answer: No! What does DALPA do? Allowed more outsourcing.

I'll attend the road shows but I quite simply cannot vote yes to a contract that continues massive outsourcing of our jobs.

Delta can buy all the additional 76 seaters they want, let us fly them.

 

[FBN0223]

It sucks for our generation of pilots that we walked into this mess of outsourcing and scope.

Those out there on the fence on this TA:

LET'S make some sacrifices to get this career field back closer to what it once was. This TA is not reducing 50 seaters. THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD. This TA is capitalizing on their imminent death.

If Delta REALLY wants to fly the 200s until 2024, then let's call their bluff!! LET THEM! This management team is EFFING smart and ONLY wants profits. With those expensive checks coming due, let's let them figure another way out to get rid of them besides US giving them more of OUR FLYING. We will give momentum to UAL negotiators to do the same. This is our CHANCE!!!!

We DO NOT need to let them fly one more 76 seater. LOOK AT OUR ROUTES. Pull up Toronto! Look at Vancouver BC. Look at the flow from LGA. They've got enough to feed mainline and THEN SOME. Any more, and it's MORE pure outsourcing of OURS, OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, COUSINS, AND CHILDREN'S jobs. Those RJ pilots flying our routes deserve to be on our list making what we make.

Let's stop it right here. YES we take it in the crotch if we vote NO in some ways, but look at what we get. We lose the "TIME VALUE OF MONEY", we go to the NMB. But in the end we will have put this career field back on a SOLID ground. WE SHUT DOWN THE PUPPY MILL REGIONAL PILOT FACTORIES. Which is the greatest threat to our careers.

WE WILL get SWA rates from the NMB, AND we can't be forced to give away more flying.

If we were getting a huge pay raise, I could understand considering this. But this is just getting us to SWA in three years from now!!! WE CAN DO BETTER!!!! If you turned it down, the company and the association are still bound to exchange openers 270 days prior to the amendable date. That would happen immediately.

Yes voters like GL, 777 Forever, Googles P. Please consider this!!!!

Amen brother

 

[FBN0223]

GL and Bill. Read the contract cover to cover. You'll see then that it is only worthy of your NO vote. Cheers

 

[jetflier]

It sucks for our generation of pilots that we walked into this mess of outsourcing and scope.

Those out there on the fence on this TA:

LET'S make some sacrifices to get this career field back closer to what it once was. This TA is not reducing 50 seaters. THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD. This TA is capitalizing on their imminent death.

If Delta REALLY wants to fly the 200s until 2024, then let's call their bluff!! LET THEM! This management team is EFFING smart and ONLY wants profits. With those expensive checks coming due, let's let them figure another way out to get rid of them besides US giving them more of OUR FLYING. We will give momentum to UAL negotiators to do the same. This is our CHANCE!!!!

We DO NOT need to let them fly one more 76 seater. LOOK AT OUR ROUTES. Pull up Toronto! Look at Vancouver BC. Look at the flow from LGA. They've got enough to feed mainline and THEN SOME. Any more, and it's MORE pure outsourcing of OURS, OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, COUSINS, AND CHILDREN'S jobs. Those RJ pilots flying our routes deserve to be on our list making what we make.

Let's stop it right here. YES we take it in the crotch if we vote NO in some ways, but look at what we get. We lose the "TIME VALUE OF MONEY", we go to the NMB. But in the end we will have put this career field back on a SOLID ground. WE SHUT DOWN THE PUPPY MILL REGIONAL PILOT FACTORIES. Which is the greatest threat to our careers.

WE WILL get SWA rates from the NMB, AND we can't be forced to give away more flying.

If we were getting a huge pay raise, I could understand considering this. But this is just getting us to SWA in three years from now!!! WE CAN DO BETTER!!!! If you turned it down, the company and the association are still bound to exchange openers 270 days prior to the amendable date. That would happen immediately.

Yes voters like GL, 777 Forever, Googles P. Please consider this!!!!

Very well said, I totally agree.

 

[filejw]

It sucks for our generation of pilots that we walked into this mess of outsourcing and scope.

Those out there on the fence on this TA:

LET'S make some sacrifices to get this career field back closer to what it once was. This TA is not reducing 50 seaters. THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD. This TA is capitalizing on their imminent death.

If Delta REALLY wants to fly the 200s until 2024, then let's call their bluff!! LET THEM! This management team is EFFING smart and ONLY wants profits. With those expensive checks coming due, let's let them figure another way out to get rid of them besides US giving them more of OUR FLYING. We will give momentum to UAL negotiators to do the same. This is our CHANCE!!!!

We DO NOT need to let them fly one more 76 seater. LOOK AT OUR ROUTES. Pull up Toronto! Look at Vancouver BC. Look at the flow from LGA. They've got enough to feed mainline and THEN SOME. Any more, and it's MORE pure outsourcing of OURS, OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, COUSINS, AND CHILDREN'S jobs. Those RJ pilots flying our routes deserve to be on our list making what we make.

Let's stop it right here. YES we take it in the crotch if we vote NO in some ways, but look at what we get. We lose the "TIME VALUE OF MONEY", we go to the NMB. But in the end we will have put this career field back on a SOLID ground. WE SHUT DOWN THE PUPPY MILL REGIONAL PILOT FACTORIES. Which is the greatest threat to our careers.

WE WILL get SWA rates from the NMB, AND we can't be forced to give away more flying.

If we were getting a huge pay raise, I could understand considering this. But this is just getting us to SWA in three years from now!!! WE CAN DO BETTER!!!! If you turned it down, the company and the association are still bound to exchange openers 270 days prior to the amendable date. That would happen immediately.

Yes voters like GL, 777 Forever, Googles P. Please consider this!!!!

And lets add what kind of pressure does this put on the folks at United /Continental. For the uninformed they are negotiating a joint contract with Continental having a 50 seat limit and UAL 70 or 75 and of course they are trying to retain Continentals 50 seat restriction.Think also about the American BK judge. Passing this TA will make 76 seats the new normal , we need to say no.

 

[Speedtape]

Get rid of the feed, and you will die on the vine. It is a necessary evil.