Delta TA on SCOPE

[General Lee]

I am trying to read through this TA, lots of lawyer-speak so it can be tough at times. But, I zeroed in on Scope, and here are some things I think I got:



1. for 76 seaters, the MAX limit will be 223 planes, the old was 256 total 70 or 76 seaters, 153 which were 76 seaters.


2. for 50-70 seaters, the max will be 125. (how many 50 seaters are there now? Hundreds. How many 70 seaters total? Now it looks like there will be only 125 total 50 or 70 seaters, and they have to be at that number by 2014 I believe.


3. There has to be 1.25 new mainline entry planes (either 717 or A319) for every additional 76 seater added, but it still can only go to the max of 223. Right now there are 153 76 seaters, so if DL gets a bunch of new 717s and A319s, they may be allowed to go up to 223. IF they don't get any new 717s or A319s, the limit still stands at 153 76 seaters, which is what they have now. IOW, they have to get new entry planes (717 or A319) to get anymore 76 seaters.



4. Foreign Scope---DL was allowed to codeshare or have Joint Ventures and have 50% of the seats onboard the other carriers' planes. Now it will be reduced to 40%.


5. Alaska Air----Delta currently can codeshare with AK and can purchase up to 50% of the seats on a plane (up to 86 seats). That will now be pushed back to only 35%, except on flights from SEA to MSP and ATL, where those planes can still have 50%.

6. 35% of newhires in classes have to come from ALPA DCI carriers.



I think most of that is right, from a cursory glance. If I made any mistakes, please correct me. Yes, there are more 76 seat RJs, but there will be a lot less RJs total, and that is the main deal right now. Sure, the 50 seaters were going away anyway, but Delta supposedly is on the hook for them for another 10 years. Why is that? Good question. What to do about it? You can always park them or continue to fly them at a loss. Or, you can trade them up, bring down the total number via the RJ manufacturer, and clean up most of the problem. If larger planes are guaranteed (no 717s or extra A319s, no 76 seaters), and the total number of RJs goes down, then that helps.


Overall, I like the Scope section a lot more than I like the compensation part.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[captain caveman]

Thanks GL.

 

[Jar Jar]

I woulda liked to see something in there preventing the alliance from selling tickets. Oh well, ahead of our time i guess..

WRT 50 vs 76 - 2 things.
1) Your product is seat miles. Not airplanes.
2) What prevents DAL from loading up on 717s, maxing 76seats at 223, and then dumping mainline birds in the scrap yard? The way I read it, they can keep all 223 76seaters under that scenario. Which basically negates the whole "they hafta grow mainline first" argument.

 

[SLUF4]

Read this article. also, what's to say they won't get the 717's then the large RJ's and decide to retire the dc-9's and some MD-88's? Then we lose planes but the RJ's stay around. I don't like it.



MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Under a new deal with pilots, Delta Air Lines Inc. traded pay raises of almost 13 percent for the ability to operate more large regional jets, according to details of the agreement released on Monday.
Pilots and airlines are in a constant tug-of-war over how many smaller jets can be flown. Airlines like to hire feeder carriers to operate jets in the 76-seat range because they're big enough to be profitable even with higher fuel prices. And they're operated on Delta's behalf by feeder airlines, which pay their pilots less. Pilots see those small planes as a threat to their own jobs and generally try to limit how many of them can be flown for their airline.
The new agreement would allow Delta to add as many as 70 additional 76-seat jets. It would allow Delta to contract for flying on a total of 325 jets with 70 and 76 seats, up from 255 now.
To add those jets, the agreement requires Delta to reduce the number of 50-seat jets, which it has already been doing. It would also have to add to its own fleet more so-called narrowbody planes, those with more than 100 seats generally used for domestic flying. One possible source would be the Boeing Co.'s 717s that Southwest Airlines Co. inherited when it bought AirTran. Southwest has said it wants to sell those planes.
"We have every reason to believe that Delta will soon announce the purchase of aircraft contingent on the ratification of this agreement," wrote Tim O'Malley, the chairman of the master executive council for the Air Line Pilots Association at Delta.
Atlanta-based Delta declined to comment on specific fleet plans. But spokeswoman Gina Laughlin said the deal creates career opportunities for Delta pilots "while providing Delta with productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy, which will result in a better customer travel experience."
The new agreement came seven months early. Delta pilots were able to get a deal now because of "Delta's desire to execute its business plan in a timely fashion," O'Malley wrote. "This agreement represents a significant accomplishment achieved in a difficult economic and negotiating environment."
Delta pilots would get 4 percent hourly raises as soon as the deal is ratified, and another 8.5 percent raise on Jan. 1. They would also get 3 percent raises at the beginning of 2014 and 2015. The deal runs through the end of 2015.
O'Malley wrote that the agreement includes several other improvements, including larger retirement plan contributions and improved sick pay.
Delta's 10,850 pilots begin voting on the agreement next month.

 

[SLUF4]

Jar Jar beat me to it!

 

[goahead]

Thanks for posting

 

[General Lee]

I've got to keep reading the TA, and I will look into it. I am sure these questions will be answered in a Negotiators notepad or the roadshows. You are right, if they park other planes, will RJs be parked too? That would be an obvious mistake if that weren't in there. My headache is now a migrane...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Jar Jar]

FYI Currently you have outsourced:

348 50 Seaters
102 65-69 Seaters
153 76 Seaters
Total: 603 Aircraft / 35862 seats

Proposed outsourcing:
125 "70 seaters" (using 67 as an average again = 8750 seats)
223 76 seaters (16948 seats)
Total: 348 Aircraft / 25698 seats

Total seats go down by about 28%. But, when was the last time you saw a 50 seater running DTW-IAH, SLC-LAX, LGA-ORD, JFK-ORD, or MSP-YVR?

I think if you looked at the average miles flown by the 900/175 you'd see that the seat mile reduction is probably much less than 28%.

 

[waveflyer]

And why can't mainline pilots fly the new ones?

 

[Tanker Clown]

And why can't mainline pilots fly the new ones?

They had to give that flying away to make less than SWA pilots. That's why they couldn't do it!

 

[General Lee]

FYI Currently you have outsourced:

348 50 Seaters
102 65-69 Seaters
153 76 Seaters
Total: 603 Aircraft / 35862 seats

Proposed outsourcing:
125 "70 seaters" (using 67 as an average again = 8750 seats)
223 76 seaters (16948 seats)
Total: 348 Aircraft / 25698 seats

Total seats go down by about 28%. But, when was the last time you saw a 50 seater running DTW-IAH, SLC-LAX, LGA-ORD, JFK-ORD, or MSP-YVR?

I think if you looked at the average miles flown by the 900/175 you'd see that the seat mile reduction is probably much less than 28%.

So wait, 348 50 seaters will go away? That's A LOT. (the new number will be 125 TOTAL either 50 or 70 seaters I believe. TOTAL) That will happen by 2014. Right now there are already 255 70/76 seaters (153 are 76 seaters). So, that means there are already 102 70 seaters. Add 23 more, and then 70 76 seaters, and get rid of 348 50 seaters. Sounds like a deal. Add 93, subtract 348. That is HUGE. And you don't think ANY of those 70 seaters will fly current 50 seat routes? NONE? Only mainline routes? Remember, you don't get any 76 seaters until mainline gets 717s or new A319s, and then only incrementally. Where will those 117 seat 717s fly if Delta gets them? Probably a lot of LGA and ATL flying. Delta is also getting 27 (?) MD90s this year too, and 100 737-900s starting late this Summer. Sounds like the domestic arena will be full, especially for that MSP to YVR route in the Summer. (maybe you can have it in the Winter when there are less pax anyway. The 739 on it in the Summer will revert to St Thomas nonstop from MSP in the Winter)

Also, I read on another board that any mainline drawdown of mainline planes will also cause a drawdown in DCI numbers. So, they are tied together. You can't just get a bunch of RJs and then park the remaining DC9s or older MD88s, and not add or keep the newer RJs.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

And why can't mainline pilots fly the new ones?

Why can't you fly the 717s? Probably the same reason. Thanks though for maybe giving them up....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flyer1015]

Am I reading this right, all 50 seater RJs will be gone?

 

[General Lee]

Am I reading this right, all 50 seater RJs will be gone?

If I read the TA correctly (a big IF, but I think I did), it said a TOTAL of 125 50-70 seaters. Then 223 TOTAL 76 seaters. Currently DCI has 255 70/76 seaters, of which 153 are 76 seaters. So, there are 102 or so 70 seaters currently flying. If they choose to keep them all, and 125 total are either 50 or 70 seaters, then that would mean 23 50 seaters left. I don't know which ones Delta would keep, they may keep 125 newer 50 seaters? That could be wrong, but I think the TA said that. I am waiting on a summary from ALPA, it should be out soon.

The TA also stated 35% of all newhires in upcoming classes would come from ALPA DCI carriers.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bake]

So, Genoyster, How are you voting? I smell kitty cat. Is it coming from your direction?

 

[Jar Jar]

And you don't think ANY of those 70 seaters will fly current 50 seat routes? NONE? Only mainline routes?

I'm sure some will. The number is anyone's guess. But im also sure there will be basically zero 50 seaters going forward. Kinda like there are zero 37 seaters now, even though they are technically permitted.

Delta is also getting 27 (?) MD90s this year too, and 100 737-900s starting late this Summer.

I wouldn't expect all of those for growth. You gotta paint the whole picture, including retiring airframes and aircraft orders that could be swapped to SWA.

Also, I read on another board that any mainline drawdown of mainline planes will also cause a drawdown in DCI numbers. So, they are tied together. You can't just get a bunch of RJs and then park the remaining DC9s or older MD88s, and not add or keep the newer RJs.

I hope you're right!

Also, how many seats is 40% of an airfrance A340? I understand 40% is an improvement, but man thats a lot of outsourcing on the top end - i didn't realize it was that bad.

 

[Jar Jar]

The TA also stated 35% of all newhires in upcoming classes would come from ALPA DCI carriers.

And when you factor the first 28 per class from Compass/Mesaba that pretty much fills that quota for the next 4 years.

 

[General Lee]

Here is a response from someone on the Dalpa internal website talking about Scope issues and this TA. Anyone who frequents that site would recognize him. His first name starts with a J. Anyway, he has some good points about the Scope issues, and it has nothing to do with the payrates which are upsetting to many on here, including me.


"First, under the current agreement the company has the authority to grow the 76 fleet to 256 hulls, under this one they are capped at 223 (153+70)

Second, The company has a financing problem with the 50 seat leases and can park them to lose 100% of potential or keep them and lose less than 100%. There are options where the lessors could take the 50 (losing some income) and replace them with 76's (and insure a longer revenue stream). IOW, the 50 IS going away, we can create an environment to accelerate that fact to our benefit our not. This agreement does...

Third, they can only take advantage of this exchange under 2 simultaneous events. They must FIRST place 1.25 NEW narrow bodies into action for each new swapped 76 AND they must remove 2-3 50's. At that point a snap shot is taken to establish a hard block hour ratio which can not be reduced. As they add more NB, they get more 76 (1.25 to 1) and they remove more 50's, a new more favorable mainline ratio is established. In the end of the day, should they chose to shrink ML for any reason, they will be required to shrink RJ by a greater degree (simple math).

Fourth, should they entertain a furlough, before the first pilot hits the street, they would have to pull 6 seats out or EVERY 76 plane being flown (not one, but ALL)

Fifth, they have finally achieved access to the JV/CS world and are in position to place defined limits."




Whether or not anyone believes this guy, he does bring up some interesting points, and a lot of that will be confirmed in writing when ALPA puts out the "negotiators notepad."



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[nimtz]

Sorry folks, but if you vote this I see us all heavily regretting it within 5 years ie same farking mistake made with the 50 seaters. The fact that my scumbag CEO sent all UAL pilots a letter TODAY telling us that this DAL TA is the new normal says it all about how management feels. Vote this and we ALL will regret it.

And for god sakes GL don't trust any "negotiators notepad". Bullet points sponsored by ALPA lead to numb nuts at CAL approving Contract '02

 

[waveflyer]

Why can't you fly the 717s? Probably the same reason. Thanks though for maybe giving them up....


Bye Bye---General Lee

You know that's a complete dodge-

As I slowly get more educated- this sounds like a lay down for a bit more pay- predictable-
50 seaters and RJs are going away due to economic pressures- and you're allowing them to be replaced with 90 seaters equipped with 76 seats...

But it's still early- I just don't have faith that the d-bag delta professionals aren't about to sellout the industry for a very small pay raise again-

Don't you have a mainline pay rate for 76 seaters? Why set a rate if you give away the flying? Why can't the replacement aircraft flying be done by mainline pilots?

It's pretty simple- it appears that is a non starter and dalpa pilots aren't willing to stand up for it.

Tell me why GL- why MUST it be farmed out. There is a natural, economically driven transition taking place- why not sieze this time to get at least all additional 76 seaters back in the fold?