Deal reached on new pilot hours

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A friend of mines daughter has been in the guard flying C-130's for over two years. She has around 600 hrs, but she is now not airline material, But two guys with their CFI's, buy a C-150, fly it together day/VFR for 300 hours giving each other dual and they are instant 800 hour pilots, a hard number has nothing to do with skill. For example the 500 ME means nothing, we have hired military helos drivers into the right seat of the DA-20 Falcon. They got 10 hours ME to get their ratings. They out flew the 1500 ME guys coming out of the 135 world. Why excellent CRM skills, and excellent IFR skills. Plus just an opinion that the light control touch that a helo driver has is better adopted to a jet transition than muscling a PA-31 around the skies. BTW We had minor problem with one guy who tried pulling up on the right armrest to get back on gluide slope, we fixed that one

Keep craming that round peg into a square hole....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I told her to go to MYR and tow banners for a summer, then she could be a real airline pilot

She has a better chance of getting hurt pulling rags than in the Herc.

 

[CX880]

This compromise basically renders the provisions useless. Very few pilots were ever actually getting hired with less than 800 hours. The average was probably in the 1000-1200 hour range. We needed the 1500 hours to make a significant impact. Disappointing to say the least.

I don't usually agree with you but this time you have it right. Another case of the gobernment intervening on something they know nothing about. This is now basically a joke, VERY FEW actually got on with 250 hours most had 500-1000.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't usually agree with you but this time you have it right. Another case of the gobernment intervening on something they know nothing about. This is now basically a joke, VERY FEW actually got on with 250 hours most had 500-1000.

The problem is the RAA and ATA pumping millions into the coffers of Congress..... they don't want their "free market" to cost them money.

 

[pilotyip]

round and round we go

The problem is the RAA and ATA pumping millions into the coffers of Congress..... they don't want their "free market" to cost them money.

no they want the free market to generate more revenue so they can create jobs, not restrict growth.

Keep craming that round peg into a square hole....

no I am all for the right person in the right seat, which would be the mil trained C-130 driver in the right seat of my Dash-8, not the 800 CFI. If you call the C-130 pilot square, it most likely reflect how squared away she really is, round just because it fits a number is not always the best choice.

 

[Smarta$$]

So these minimums require your future FO's to just have a set number of hours. The guy who flew the grand canyon in a 152 for 1,000 hours is now mandated to be more qualified than the guy that has 700 hours in a high performance twin in and of the north east. I'm with those that disagree entirely. No hiring minimums should exist other than legal qualifications. Very strong practical tests should be the filter.

Your a bonehead. The Guy flying the high performance twin just needs to do it for a few more months. There has to be a minimum standard. I am disappointed that it won't be 1500.

 

[ualdriver]

I told her to go to MYR and tow banners for a summer, then she could be a real airline pilot

800 hours in 2 years.......or you could actually try to give her GOOD advice and tell her to fly her C130 for several more months and then apply?

 

[FoxyWhiskey]

I am ok with the 800 hour deal. I also have to agree that the time AND type of flight experience...combination thereof... (as well as the resume & overall whole package) need to be considered when hiring pilots anywhere. A good recruiter and solid SIM eval will reveal if the candidate is truly someone who has the skills, and can be tolerated on a 4-day trip. 800 hours or 10,000 hours. :beer:

-FW

 

[CFI2766]

no they want the free market to generate more revenue so they can create jobs, not restrict growth.
no I am all for the right person in the right seat, which would be the mil trained C-130 driver in the right seat of my Dash-8, not the 800 CFI. If you call the C-130 pilot square, it most likely reflect how squared away she really is, round just because it fits a number is not always the best choice.

Ummm... point of order, here, your 'honor'.

Let's stop throwing around the idea that EVERY military pilot is better than EVERY civilian pilot. Sure, the odds are that the military trained pilot is a better pilot than the civilian pilot, but that is not necessarily the case. Who's to say that the mil guy, or gal, is better at accomplishing the mission of moving people than the civilian guy, or gal, that has done their homework and sought ways to excel?

800 hours is nothing in the grand scale of things. All this means is that the prospective pilot has to put both feet in the boiling water of being a professional pilot; not simply a dream chaser living off of mommy and daddy's money.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

no they want the free market to generate more revenue so they can create jobs, not restrict growth..

Who is "they"?

 

[pilotyip]

Who is "they"?

the they?, you named them

 

[hmmm]

I can say when we were flying cargo into Diego Garcia in the worst storms with so much rain we couldn't see anything but colors of the lights of the windshield in worst winds and lightning and 3 engines on DC-8s the military guy were always snuggling with their teddy bears or at least their teddies at 3AM.

And I know they didn't deal with gate agents and weather legalities and screwed up dispatchers dealing with 58.5 flights each and all other bs including contradictory mels and defrerals that although were airworthy they were not operationally airworthy and idiot ops people and a hundred other things to block out on time 6 and 7 legs a day at the airlines for thousands of hours. yeah those military guys excel at that stuff when their crystaline brain cells don't have everything in just the right place and can't hack it and complain and whine whereas others learn how to make it work legally and learn to direct.

The only thing that makes the military guys in any way better or more hire-able at the airlines especially the bathroom circle jerk that delta -was- is the good ol boy network.

But hey... that's my opinion. I'm human and some of the military guys do believe they are human. Some.

 

[crj567]

Once again-we will see my version of the endgame brought on by this type of new rule.

-The airlines will run out of "qualified" applicants very quickly. The ATA approach congress (with bags of money) and beg and plead for some way around this problem. The ATA will posit a solution: Cabotage.

Congress will buy it, and Cabotage will happen. $39 fares will continue, and our planes will just be piloted by people from 3rd-world countries. This "shortage" is just the vehicle the ATA will use to get congress to buy off on cabotage. People will be doing our job for minimum wage.

-It is coming-you can bet on it.

 

[xjhawk]

The way it was before was flawed since they had provision for those graduating from those "Elite" schools. If they came from them, the ones with political clout, they could have reduced hours. Just because they pay that kind of money does not make them better pilots at such a low time. I must say that neither does being a military pilot. What the military pilots have is as someone already posted, CRM abilities and procedures they follow to the letter. Discipline and professionalism. Oh well, another hopeful deal the government could have done but they screwed it up.

 

[pilotyip]

that is right going with the odds

Ummm... point of order, here, your 'honor'.

Let's stop throwing around the idea that EVERY military pilot is better than EVERY civilian pilot. Sure, the odds are that the military trained pilot is a better pilot than the civilian pilot,

As you said there is better chance that the 800 military pilot is better, so go with odds. BTW Only my humble experience, but having hired 47 military background pilots in last 12 years, only one failure, 298 civilian background hires, 27 failures. When you hired a mil pilot they are pretty much cookie cutter, you know what you are getting, when you hire a civilian you can get a superb pilot better than anything you have ever seen and you can also get something that should never be near an airplane unescorted.

 

[wrxpilot]

Congress will buy it, and Cabotage will happen. $39 fares will continue, and our planes will just be piloted by people from 3rd-world countries. This "shortage" is just the vehicle the ATA will use to get congress to buy off on cabotage. People will be doing our job for minimum wage.

-It is coming-you can bet on it.

So... Pilots from other countries, all of which pay better than US regional airlines, are going to flood the US for our sub-par wages and working conditions? Why?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So... Pilots from other countries, all of which pay better than US regional airlines, are going to flood the US for our sub-par wages and working conditions? Why?

They won't be pilots..... until they are trained. MPL?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As you said there is better chance that the 800 military pilot is better, so go with odds. BTW Only my humble experience, but having hired 47 military background pilots in last 12 years, only one failure, 298 civilian background hires, 27 failures. When you hired a mil pilot they are pretty much cookie cutter, you know what you are getting, when you hire a civilian you can get a superb pilot better than anything you have ever seen and you can also get something that should never be near an airplane unescorted.

Take the 298 civilians and give them the same slection process, budget and time to train as the MIL guys.....

 

[OCP]

Take the 298 civilians and give them the same slection process, budget and time to train as the MIL guys.....

Which ones were better for the airlines?

 

[phishn@daves]

As you said there is better chance that the 800 military pilot is better, so go with odds. BTW Only my humble experience, but having hired 47 military background pilots in last 12 years, only one failure, 298 civilian background hires, 27 failures. When you hired a mil pilot they are pretty much cookie cutter, you know what you are getting, when you hire a civilian you can get a superb pilot better than anything you have ever seen and you can also get something that should never be near an airplane unescorted.

I was airline and went fractional. At the airline I was CA for 4 yrs. FO for 3. Interviewed and was sim partners with an Air Force Training CA. He was the worst pilot I have ever shared a sim with.

1. He has almost zero instrument time (they do not fly in wx.)

2. Zero glass time ( I understand that)

3. Cannot hand fly in the clouds.

I can give you his name and number if you are ex AF and do not believe me.

Problem is........We (CIV) do not "plan" the trip for 12 hours the day before. We go out and fly as long as it it safe. We (civ) have the experience to fly in wx planned and forecast and most times beyond that.

Please don't play the Mil. vs. Civ card, because there is no comparison when you are flying for an airline.

I cannot fly a fighter jet. I would love to. But have not been through that training program.

I'm sure most Mil. guy's make it through just fine, but this one was just not working out in the "real" world.

 

[Poahi]

Looks like the airlines got what they wanted with this one. I'd bet most pilots were hired with north of 800 hours. And I'll say it again, this rule change wouldn't have prevented 3407.

 

[BigLebowski]

Of course I disagree, a hard number takes away the ability to make a rational decision. In my case above, in times of a hiring boom, the airline by regulation would be forced to hire the 800 CFI's, and bypass the C-130 pilot because she only has 600 hours.

quick question...why would someone in the military even consider the regionals? Why not stay in a little longer, get the times for a Major and go to the reserves and eventually collect a retirement?

 

[BigLebowski]

800 hours in 2 years.......or you could actually try to give her GOOD advice and tell her to fly her C130 for several more months and then apply?

Thank you...couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Interesting discussion until it turned into the Mil vs Civ cluster.

Yawn.

 

[Tristar]

As you said there is better chance that the 800 military pilot is better, so go with odds. BTW Only my humble experience, but having hired 47 military background pilots in last 12 years, only one failure, 298 civilian background hires, 27 failures. When you hired a mil pilot they are pretty much cookie cutter, you know what you are getting, when you hire a civilian you can get a superb pilot better than anything you have ever seen and you can also get something that should never be near an airplane unescorted.

It sounds to me that your interviewing and selection process is very poor, if you were unable to determine whether you were getting a superb or deficient pilot. What are you using to determine your selections, a ouija board? Or perhaps the problem is your carrier fails to offer an adequate compensation package, thereby denying itself the opportunity to hire some of the better candidates. The other option is your training department is failing miserably. I know the carriers I've been at didn't come anywhere near having a 10% failure rate, so something is wrong in your world.

 

[pilotyip]

Who wants to work here? a bottom feeder?

It sounds to me that your interviewing and selection process is very poor, if you were unable to determine whether you were getting a superb or deficient pilot. What are you using to determine your selections, a ouija board? Or perhaps the problem is your carrier fails to offer an adequate compensation package, thereby denying itself the opportunity to hire some of the better candidates. The other option is your training department is failing miserably. I know the carriers I've been at didn't come anywhere near having a 10% failure rate, so something is wrong in your world.

You have to understand we are a bottom feeder. You wear a pager, you are on 30 minute call outs, you fly to strange places in the middle of the night, you de-ice airplanes all the time, and YIP is IFR almost all winter with icing conditions. During hiring booms nobody applies here unless they can not find a job someplace else. During these times our turnover is high. In 2007 a 500 CFI was a typical hire, today it is 10,000 hr ex ABX, DHL, etc pilot, In 1999 we replaced 100% of our DA-20 pilots, 80%, 140% F/O's. This is the place pilots start and the place many end their careers. We have to take pilots we know may have training problems and weed them out in training. Once a pilot has a couple years of TJ time he is off to a better position. Inspection:The FAA has inspected USA Jet over 10 times in the last 12 years; there has never been a major find and only a few minor finding. Minor findings are non–compliance with company policy that is beyond the requirements of the FAA. Outside companies such as ARG/US inspect USA Jet for their clients. USA Jet receives rave reviews as one of the finest companies they ever inspected. The inspector for Ford Motor Company’s Corporate Flight Department went straight to Ford and told them they had the best charter company he had ever inspected in their back yard. We started getting charters from Ford that week. This is premier company. Management:USA Jet management was committed to running the finest airline in the charter business. This is an example of this teams capability. Putting passenerger operations on a Part 121 certificate is one the challenging tasks an airline can face. A special team called the RESEP team was in charge of the certification. No airline had passed on their first attempt. USA Jet not only passed on its first attempt, but also passed in a matter that shocked the inspection team on our knowledge and preparation. Training:USA Jet does all of its training under Part 121 subpart N & O. The FAA allows us to train in the DA-20 under the less demanding regulations found in Part 135, USA Jet in the interest of safety and standardization has elected to do all training to Part 121 standards. Our Simulator instructions teach from the company mandated USA Jet Standard Operating Procedures (SOP’s) found in the FAA approved Airplane Operating Manuals. The same SOP’s are used on both the DA-20 and the DC-9, and is modified to allow for operation differences between the two airplanes. This reinforces company procedures when moving between airplanes at USA Jet Airlines and is the industry standard for an Air Carrier flying more than one type of airplane under Part 121. Most new pilots coming to work for USA Jet Airlines are hired as DA-20 First Officers. Their training includes 2.5 weeks of Basic subjects, covering the FAR required Basic Indoc plus Hazardous Materials, CRM, and General Emergency Training. The DA-20 systems ground school is 2.5 weeks of full time ground school prior to starting sim training. Sim training on the DA-20 is done at Flight Safety Int’l where we dry lease their sim. Sim training for the DA-20 runs one week and 25 hours for F/O's. All training and checking is done under Part 121 Appendix E and F. All DA-20 F/O's receive 25 hours of supervised IOE prior to being released to line operations; we observe 100 min time in seat for pairing restrictions. When DA-20 Pilots move into the DC-9. They receive 4 weeks of DC-9 Systems training. Sim training on the DC-9 is done at Airborne Express where we also dry lease their sim. This followed by one week of DC-9 sim training that runs 25 hours for all DC-9 F/O's. Again IOE on the DC-9 and the DA-20 are identical. We have had pilots go to major airlines and tell us, except for fancy bells and whistles, the USA Jet training was as good as they got at their major. No USA Jet pilot has failed training at his next job. At an unnamed national passenger operator, 50% of the new hire pilots washed out of DC-9 training. Former USA Jet pilots hired by that airline had a 100% pass rate based upon their USA Jet Training. Some pilots hired by a large player in the business waived all testing and sim evals for USA Jet pilots, because of the known quality of their USA Jet Training. Maintenance USA Jet maintenance is the finest in our sector. Airlines are maintained to offer a high level of readiness and ability to meet customer’s demands.

 

[pilotyip]

she is not

quick question...why would someone in the military even consider the regionals? Why not stay in a little longer, get the times for a Major and go to the reserves and eventually collect a retirement?

just an example, I have not talked to her father in a while am not sure what she is doing since I tried to hire her.

 

[dooork]

You have to understand we are a bottom feeder. You wear a pager, you are on 30 minute call outs, you fly to strange places in the middle of the night, you de-ice airplanes all the time, and YIP is IFR almost all winter with icing conditions. During hiring booms nobody applies here unless they can not find a job someplace else. During these times our turnover is high. In 2007 a 500 CFI was a typical hire, today it is 10,000 hr ex ABX, DHL, etc pilot, In 1999 we replaced 100% of our DA-20 pilots, 80%, 140% F/O's. This is the place pilots start and the place many end their careers. We have to take pilots we know may have training problems and weed them out in training. Once a pilot has a couple years of TJ time he is off to a better position. Inspection:The FAA has inspected USA Jet over 10 times in the last 12 years; there has never been a major find and only a few minor finding. Minor findings are non–compliance with company policy that is beyond the requirements of the FAA. Outside companies such as ARG/US inspect USA Jet for their clients. USA Jet receives rave reviews as one of the finest companies they ever inspected. The inspector for Ford Motor Company’s Corporate Flight Department went straight to Ford and told them they had the best charter company he had ever inspected in their back yard. We started getting charters from Ford that week. This is premier company. Management:USA Jet management was committed to running the finest airline in the charter business. This is an example of this teams capability. Putting passenerger operations on a Part 121 certificate is one the challenging tasks an airline can face. A special team called the RESEP team was in charge of the certification. No airline had passed on their first attempt. USA Jet not only passed on its first attempt, but also passed in a matter that shocked the inspection team on our knowledge and preparation. Training:USA Jet does all of its training under Part 121 subpart N & O. The FAA allows us to train in the DA-20 under the less demanding regulations found in Part 135, USA Jet in the interest of safety and standardization has elected to do all training to Part 121 standards. Our Simulator instructions teach from the company mandated USA Jet Standard Operating Procedures (SOP’s) found in the FAA approved Airplane Operating Manuals. The same SOP’s are used on both the DA-20 and the DC-9, and is modified to allow for operation differences between the two airplanes. This reinforces company procedures when moving between airplanes at USA Jet Airlines and is the industry standard for an Air Carrier flying more than one type of airplane under Part 121. Most new pilots coming to work for USA Jet Airlines are hired as DA-20 First Officers. Their training includes 2.5 weeks of Basic subjects, covering the FAR required Basic Indoc plus Hazardous Materials, CRM, and General Emergency Training. The DA-20 systems ground school is 2.5 weeks of full time ground school prior to starting sim training. Sim training on the DA-20 is done at Flight Safety Int’l where we dry lease their sim. Sim training for the DA-20 runs one week and 25 hours for F/O's. All training and checking is done under Part 121 Appendix E and F. All DA-20 F/O's receive 25 hours of supervised IOE prior to being released to line operations; we observe 100 min time in seat for pairing restrictions. When DA-20 Pilots move into the DC-9. They receive 4 weeks of DC-9 Systems training. Sim training on the DC-9 is done at Airborne Express where we also dry lease their sim. This followed by one week of DC-9 sim training that runs 25 hours for all DC-9 F/O's. Again IOE on the DC-9 and the DA-20 are identical. We have had pilots go to major airlines and tell us, except for fancy bells and whistles, the USA Jet training was as good as they got at their major. No USA Jet pilot has failed training at his next job. At an unnamed national passenger operator, 50% of the new hire pilots washed out of DC-9 training. Former USA Jet pilots hired by that airline had a 100% pass rate based upon their USA Jet Training. Some pilots hired by a large player in the business waived all testing and sim evals for USA Jet pilots, because of the known quality of their USA Jet Training. Maintenance USA Jet maintenance is the finest in our sector. Airlines are maintained to offer a high level of readiness and ability to meet customer’s demands.

Who in f%^& wants to read that rant!

 

[Jiminmem]

So these minimums require your future FO's to just have a set number of hours. The guy who flew the grand canyon in a 152 for 1,000 hours is now mandated to be more qualified than the guy that has 700 hours in a high performance twin in and of the north east. I'm with those that disagree entirely. No hiring minimums should exist other than legal qualifications. Very strong practical tests should be the filter.

If you have 700 hour in a high performace twin, you have to have well over a 1000 total. I haven't had to get insurance in a while, but when I flew a Baron 58 10 years ago they wanted considerably more then 1000 hours to act as PIC. Granted, it was brand new, but I doubt it would change much for an older one.

 

[Kalifornia]

Of course I disagree, a hard number takes away the ability to make a rational decision. In my case above, in times of a hiring boom, the airline by regulation would be forced to hire the 800 CFI's, and bypass the C-130 pilot because she only has 600 hours.

You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.