Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[FamilyGuy]

"I understand this is a fine line and i can see both arguments, but why not do the regular audit and then ask the q's if you want more info."

Why? Because a majority of the pilots at NJA say the do not care about the audit. One, we do not believe the numbers. Two, our pay is linked to management fees. Not enough money, raise the fees.

So enough of this audit crap, it is just a waste of electrons. Pay us or shut the doors.

I've got to throw the BS flag on this.

Fozzy - you've been at NetJets for just 3 years. What makes you think you are owed anything? Where does this sense of entitlement come from? You didnt build this company. You weren't here for the last contract. You weren't even here when it became amendable.

No employee, pilot or non-pilot, is owed anything by a company after just 3 years. When you get to 20+ then maybe we can talk.

Lets face facts here...NetJets has provided you and many other pilots a safe haven from the worst economic storm the aviation world has ever seen. In the meantime many of our aviation colleagues have found themselves out on the street. Your response to that safe haven is economic blackmail. Pay me what I want or shut it down.

All you are looking for is the quick jackpot and then you can move on to someplace else. You apparently do not even care if NetJets can afford the pay package you are demanding. Where does a 3 year employee get off with this kind of an attitude?!?!

Executive Jet/NetJets has been in business for over 40 years. We didnt last this long by making foolish financial decisions. If you want a quick jackpot then you need to go play the lottery, cause it aint going to happen here. Why dont you move on to another company and try to bankrupt them?

Your attitude and arrogance is a slap in the face to every long tenured employee who wants to make a career here.

Come to think of it, it appears that many of the ardent union supporters on this board are relative newcomers to NetJets....Lets take a roll call and see:

Fozzy - 3 years
Hogprint - 3.5 years
Abenaki - 3 years
Just Peachy - 3 years
Mach92 - 3.5 years
beytzim - 3.5 years - if he hadnt left in june

I think I can see why everyone's so focused on that 5th year salary number....

 

[FamilyGuy]

Did you even stay awake in economics 101????

WTFO???

Its called supply and demand. We have more demand then product to deliver. Simple econ- raise the rates to match demand= equilebrium.

First two quarters we reported that income was UP $400,000,000.00 from same time last year. Let's see, project that out for the rest of the year and we will be $800,000,000.00 above what we made last year.. Like I said WTFO?? what don't you understand???

The company is allright with taking money and not having enough assets to cover flying, yet the egomniacs will not pay pilots. Pilots make airplane go from point A to B.

Like I said you should have stayed awake in class.

AMF

Did you stay awake in accounting 101?

Revenue does not equal Profit.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Just look at the recent AIN articles leaving NJA at the bottom of owner renewals.

No... Flex and Flight Options were at the bottom for owner renewals. NetJets was in second, just behind Citation Shares.

Flex and Flight Options were losing more people than they were signing up. NetJets and Citation Shares were gaining.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Let me also respond to the fact that the MMF's have been kept artifically low, it's called predatory pricing practices and is against federal law.

Now that it's all out WAR I think that this will come to light and you will now see a federal case coming down to bear. Can you say supeonas for BB, Shamtulli, Buffett, et el.?

There are over two thousand pilot witnesses to statements made by management to this fact in company recurrent class.

Bye by scum sucking management.

How many classes did you sleep through anyways? Or did you even go to school?

Predatory pricing occurs when you sell a product below cost. Selling it at a low margin doesnt meet the criteria.

I suspect from your rhetoric that you're another relatively low-time employee with NetJets looking for a quick payout. Why dont you move along to some other company and let us get back to the business we built of taking care of the owners...

 

[steel]

Family guy-



“Fozzy - you've been at NetJets for just 3 years. What makes you think you are owed anything? Where does this sense of entitlement come from? You didnt build this company. You weren't here for the last contract. You weren't even here when it became amendable.”



How much have you had to drink? Based on the knowledge exhibited in your posts, one can only deduce you have been here less than 5 years. How does one have the gall to decide who is what owed what with that “tenure”? Besides, we have a lot of great folks here who have contributed to this company while being here less than 1 year. Some have contributed with less than 3 months seniority. What does it matter how long one has been here? Duck, I just threw up a “union busting spin” BS flag! Get a clue, and please quit embarrassing yourself. In fact, go get yourself a management 101 book, something that delves into innovations. I believe you will be shocked (most people wouldn’t, but you’re really behind the power curve) when you see what great companies do to keep the innovations alive and well. It’s not just about coming up with an idea. It’s about making the idea better for all involved. It’s about providing relevance to employees to carry out the systems in place to execute the plan. In our case, we should be innovating to help both our internal and external customers understand why their presence is valuable.



“Lets face facts here...NetJets has provided you and many other pilots a safe haven from the worst economic storm the aviation world has ever seen. In the meantime many of our aviation colleagues have found themselves out on the street.”



So, it’s ok for you to compare the fractional industry to the airline industry now? Pick a side please.



“We didnt last this long by making foolish financial decisions.”



Please….sell offs anyone? Like I wrote, get a clue, and get some knowledge please.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family guy-

“Fozzy - you've been at NetJets for just 3 years. What makes you think you are owed anything? Where does this sense of entitlement come from? You didnt build this company. You weren't here for the last contract. You weren't even here when it became amendable.”

How much have you had to drink? Based on the knowledge exhibited in your posts, one can only deduce you have been here less than 5 years. How does one have the gall to decide who is what owed what with that “tenure”? Besides, we have a lot of great folks here who have contributed to this company while being here less than 1 year. Some have contributed with less than 3 months seniority. What does it matter how long one has been here?

Wow...people have been here three whole months and they contributed....What the hell....give them $100,000 as well. Who cares if the company can afford it

Get a clue....people that have been here for only a couple of years or less should never be trying to hold a company hostage - threatening to shut down a 40+ year old company and destroying the jobs that it has created for thousands of families. All of these low time employees came here knowing full well what the pay was, what the situation was....and now they want to act holier than thou and try to convince the world that there's some big conspiracy against the employees at NetJets. Its a bunch of crap.

Everyone at NetJets has received exactly what the company has promised them - their wages and benefits.

And by the way an employee of 3 months had better be contributing to the company. If he isnt then he should be fired. (that obviously applies to everyone, regardless of time in service)

Family guy-

“Lets face facts here...NetJets has provided you and many other pilots a safe haven from the worst economic storm the aviation world has ever seen. In the meantime many of our aviation colleagues have found themselves out on the street.”

So, it’s ok for you to compare the fractional industry to the airline industry now? Pick a side please.

If you think this economic storm has only affected the airline side of the house then you are truly clueless.

“We didnt last this long by making foolish financial decisions.”

Please….sell offs anyone? Like I wrote, get a clue, and get some knowledge please.

So you think NetJets wants to be selling off at this rate? That this is the norm?

I guess it couldnt have anything to do with the increased DNIF rate, the increased break rate of the aircraft, and the lower productivity from disgruntled low time employees....

 

[steel]

Thank you for the quick, emotional and senseless reply.



Thank you for helping to make my point that you have not been here at NetJets, as part of OUR family, for any length of time.



Thank you for assuming things that I said, while putting a union busting spin on them.



Thank you for helping to unify this group of airmen.



Thank you!



Now, where did you get the $100,000 figure? I won't negotiate with you on this board, as we have very capable personnel doing that for us. However, I will state we would never ask for $100,000 for a three month employee. Good spin though.



Next, as you would have known had you been here more than two years, we were indeed aware of what the pay was when we came here. We were also aware of what we were promised by RTS himself prior to you coming to this once great company. Ask around, do some research, and please get facts before trying to explain your very weak, union busting spun argument.



Next, relevance should equal contributions expected. Example, pay should be commensurate with responsibility (read safety, customer service, fixing owner service's lies). This is where the management 101 books would help you. I seem to remember you barraging someone else on this board about missing class.



Next, your economic storm (your words) only decreased our increasing capture rate of the market share. I have a clue that you are trying to spin this into pro company stance. I will not put words in your mouth; however, I will state we have been hiring nonstop right through the “economic downturn”. We have also been taking delivery of new airplanes nonstop right through this "economic downturn". The only economic storm I see is manmade by the great NetJets' management team. Tell me again how hiring union busting firms to fight off the inevitable makes sense?



Lastly, assuming things never gets anyone anywhere. Facts will however, help to see right through your spin about sell offs. I just wrote sell-offs, and you try and spin it to selling off trips due to DNIFs (duties not including flight). I was writing about the financial genius who sold off the core fleet. We oversold our capacity overnight. This is just one of the “foolish financial decisions” I have seen in my short tenure here (read my short tenure is much longer than Family Guy’s).

 

[Bad Monkey!]

Your a tool Family Guy.

Go home to your but buddy and make some noise.

 

[Fozzy]

Oh I didn't know that you had no opinion unless you were here "X" amount of years. Sorry, I will log off now.

Why do I argue with a person who is unable to do my job or vote on the contract.

Nop can't do it. Tools (because you are all the same). Yup been here 3ish years. I am glad you have been taking notes. I guess you earned your pay. Now stick your spin up your ass. I do have an opinion. I have every right to affect change at NJA. I am doing it every single day. I also plan on making this place a career. So I know full well what our actions can do to my future at NJA.

And with all that said, I still say burn her down if we do not get a fair contract. And what is fair is decided by the pilot group and only the pilot group.

So go ahead and babble about how I have not been here long enough. I guess that is the flavor of the day. It is crap and we all know it. 1 month to 14 years, every pilot has 1 vote. We all pay dues so we all have the ability to affect what our Union does. That is something that you will never have. And that is the truth.

 

[CMHTroll]

I do have an opinion. I have every right to affect change at NJA. I am doing it every single day. I also plan on making this place a career. So I know full well what our actions can do to my future at NJA.

And with all that said, I still say burn her down if we do not get a fair contract. And what is fair is decided by the pilot group and only the pilot group.

I agree that you do have an opinion, and a right to try and change NJA for the better. And it is great that you want to make NJA your career. It does have many fine qualities as a company.

What the true variable is the value statement, "fair." And what may be though of as "fair" to the current group of pilots may not be feasable and have sustainable company. So you can say you want to burn it down, but what you want is a strong company to pay you wages for your career. When you come to that realization, and that you are just labor and do not run the company, then you will realize that you have to have realistic exoectation, in line with reality.

 

[old*art]

Hang on

Ok both sides listen to me ..... what you are seeing is a glimpse into big time power negotiating. Each side stakes out a preposterous position and then waits for the other to blink. This is not about chump change - it is about big dollars and people's lives, salary standards for a maturing industry and efficiencies of operation, huge egos and each side using the legal tools at their disposal. (Flying by the rules for pilots and the threat of hostages by the company) In any "war" there are innocent bystanders - read NJ support personnel - who are frightened by the sounds of "war" ... and even sometimes suffer collateral casualties. Just remember one thing however - nobody got on the Mayflower looking for 30 yrs and a gold watch. This is America and you can go do something else if egos - on both sides - kill this place. (Did I give myself away completely ??) But everyone hang on .. cause the ride is just beginning.

 

[Cavpilot]

Fozzy - 3 years
Hogprint - 3.5 years
Abenaki - 3 years
Just Peachy - 3 years
Mach92 - 3.5 years
beytzim - 3.5 years - if he hadnt left in june

Nice try dude. But you are WRONG! How about me? Care to guess how long I've been at NetJets? Here is a hint...more than two years, but less than nine. Please do not reply until the buzz has worn off.

 

[FAcFriend]

Ok, so noone asked - but I have to say-
Family Guy if you are in a position to find out who everyone is here, then I think 1. you should pass on playing and or 2. at least keep it to yourself.

this is an anonymous forum. People come here to speak their minds and debate, and pass some time. (obviously I have been bored lately)

Are you going to try to figure out who i am?

I hope not. What difference does it make. We are all working to the same end. resolution

 

[TheTruthCMH]

We are all working to the same end. resolution

Now THAT is the TRUTH!

The Truth Hurts

TTC

 

[FamilyGuy]

Wow...people have been here three whole months and they contributed....What the hell....give them $100,000 as well. Who cares if the company can afford it

Now, where did you get the $100,000 figure? I won't negotiate with you on this board, as we have very capable personnel doing that for us. However, I will state we would never ask for $100,000 for a three month employee. Good spin though.

What's this? A pilot who's not familiar with sarcasm?

A little hint for you...if you hold your cursor over the smilie for 2 seconds it will even tell you it is sarcasm.....

I just took your argument to its logical conclusion...you want to argue that there are 3 month employee's that contribute...so if that's the sole criteria why not pay them $100k as well? After all, we dont care if the company can afford it - we'll just charge the owners more! (hint - this is more sarcasm)

Next, as you would have known had you been here more than two years, we were indeed aware of what the pay was when we came here. We were also aware of what we were promised by RTS himself prior to you coming to this once great company. Ask around, do some research, and please get facts before trying to explain your very weak, union busting spun argument.

Ahh...the infamous RTS speech....so what figure did RTS promise you? (exact number please)

What figure did your union build it up to over the last 4 years?

It seems to me that you're the victim of inflated expectations.

I've watched people pump up the expected payday for the last 4 years on this board....to the point that any reasonable offer by the company is quickly scoffed at because it suffers in comparison to that 100% increase you've convinced yourselves that you deserve.

Next, relevance should equal contributions expected. Example, pay should be commensurate with responsibility (read safety, customer service, fixing owner service's lies). This is where the management 101 books would help you. I seem to remember you barraging someone else on this board about missing class.

I'm glad you brought this up steel. If you had been paying attention you would realize that I addressed this topic just 3 short days ago in this post:

The overall point is that LIFE IS NOT FAIR. If we are going to pay all jobs according to levels of responsibility then in my opinion, none of us would make more money than teachers, police officers, and fire fighters. No athlete or CEO would make more money than the President of the United States. Our military would make more money than it does. The list is very long.......

Now...seeing as how our pilots average pay exceeds teachers, police officers, and firefighters, I'm sure you will be willing to live up to your own words and donate all of your excess salary to charity.....right?

Oh, and by the way, it also means you wont need that REASONABLE raise the company offered you....right?

Next, your economic storm (your words) only decreased our increasing capture rate of the market share. I have a clue that you are trying to spin this into pro company stance. I will not put words in your mouth; however, I will state we have been hiring nonstop right through the “economic downturn”. We have also been taking delivery of new airplanes nonstop right through this "economic downturn". The only economic storm I see is manmade by the great NetJets' management team. Tell me again how hiring union busting firms to fight off the inevitable makes sense?

Thank you for proving my point. Go back and read my post again if you have to in order to comprehend it.

The gist is that NetJets provided you and many other pilots a safe haven from the worst economic storm in aviation history. And how do you want to repay that safe haven? By attempting ECONOMIC BLACKMAIL on the company that sheltered you.

Lastly, assuming things never gets anyone anywhere. Facts will however, help to see right through your spin about sell offs. I just wrote sell-offs, and you try and spin it to selling off trips due to DNIFs (duties not including flight). I was writing about the financial genius who sold off the core fleet. We oversold our capacity overnight. This is just one of the “foolish financial decisions” I have seen in my short tenure here (read my short tenure is much longer than Family Guy’s).

You're right....FACTS WILL HELP EVERYONE SEE THROUGH YOUR SPIN....

You want to claim that the increased sell-offs are due to the sold off core, yet the FACTS do not back you up.

Take a look at a day last week - we have 325 revenue flights for NJA, and 359 NJA aircraft, but we sell off 40 flights....hmmm...I wonder why?

Its definitely not due to overwhelming demand....but I think increased DNIF and mx write-ups played a role....

Now that we've dispensed with your attempts to sidetrack the conversation.... lets get back to the topic at hand.

I noticed you side-stepped the heart of my question in the original post, namely -

• What makes a 3 year employee think they are owed anything?
• Where does this sense of entitlement come from? They didnt build this company. They weren't here for the last contract. They weren't even here when it became amendable.
• Why should a 40+ year old company mortgage its future and cave into the demands of a bunch of 3 year employees that are just looking for a quick payday before they jump ship and try to bankrupt another company?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Your a tool Family Guy.

Go home to your but buddy and make some noise.

And you're (notice the correct spelling) a great ambassador for the union....keep it up.

I'm sure you'll have people falling all over themselves to associate themselves with someone of such fine, upstanding character....

 

[Fracster]

Your attitude and arrogance is a slap in the face to every long tenured employee who wants to make a career here.

Come to think of it, it appears that many of the ardent union supporters on this board are relative newcomers to NetJets....Lets take a roll call and see:

You're some company lemming/lackey who couldn't get a job anywhere else, thats why you are still here. What do you do any how?

As for the ardent union supporters we got sick and tired of being abused and under paid for our services. We refused to play the arse kissing "A" team game NJA is famous or infamous for. The 3 to 5 year guys/gals have done more for this company than any of the 7, 8 or 9 year people. The new blood has tried to make this company more efficient and finacialy responsible. Have a problem, throw money at it has always been NJA's motto. The new and intelligent people at this company recognized that in this unstable downturn you speak of that a company of this size needed to be more fiscally responsible. What was NutJets response? We dont need your help.
I am so thankful to know I will be leaving NJA very soon. If I have to see or speak to another idiot like you or the other "company" people on this board Im going to be sick, or, take a swing!

 

[FamilyGuy]

Oh I didn't know that you had no opinion unless you were here "X" amount of years. Sorry, I will log off now.

Why do I argue with a person who is unable to do my job or vote on the contract.

Nop can't do it. Tools (because you are all the same). Yup been here 3ish years. I am glad you have been taking notes. I guess you earned your pay. Now stick your spin up your ass. I do have an opinion. I have every right to affect change at NJA. I am doing it every single day. I also plan on making this place a career. So I know full well what our actions can do to my future at NJA.

And with all that said, I still say burn her down if we do not get a fair contract. And what is fair is decided by the pilot group and only the pilot group.

So go ahead and babble about how I have not been here long enough. I guess that is the flavor of the day. It is crap and we all know it. 1 month to 14 years, every pilot has 1 vote. We all pay dues so we all have the ability to affect what our Union does. That is something that you will never have. And that is the truth.

Ahhhh....another fine ambassador for the union....

Of course you have an opinion....and you are entitled to it.

I served my country for over 8 years so that you could have your opinion. I did that service not because I agree with your opinion, but because I believe in the fundamental idea and concepts put forth in our constitution and bill of rights.

But here's the kicker for you....and this is where you'll find the MISTAKE in your argument that NetJets should pay you what you want or you'll shut it down....

One of the basic tenets of America is that people are free to do what they want so long as it DOES NOT IMPINGE ON THE GREATER GOOD AND WELFARE OF OTHERS. This is why you have the right to free speech but you cant yell FIRE in a crowded theater....it is detrimental to the greater good and welfare of others.

Your argument to pay me what I want or STFD parallels this closely....we have a 3 year employee that is willing to bankrupt a company and destroy the lives of THOUSANDS of employees and family members because you think you are entitled to a 100% pay increase AND a $200,000 signing bonus.

Well guess what....most of us that have been here for far longer than that are more interested in building a career here. We were working here long before you came, and we'll be here long after you leave...so go pillage somewhere else....

 

[dukeofdub]

The new blood has tried to make this company more efficient and finacialy responsible. Have a problem, throw money at it has always been NJA's motto. The new and intelligent people at this company recognized that in this unstable downturn you speak of that a company of this size needed to be more fiscally responsible. What was NutJets response? We dont need your help.

Yes there have been a few good suggestions. And ten bad ones for every good one. Remember you are labor, not management. Teamsters....

 

[Diesel]

let's not distort the facts. 200k is for year 5 senority in retro pay.

I wonder if Duke ment two instead of to?

Anyways yes we are labor. Now that we got that figured out. What's next?