Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[AeroBoy]

Regarding the so-called "signing bonus," is this a retroactive back pay raise for the past four years since the contract became amendable?

 

[Hawkered]

Alright then......

Family Guy,

I commend your ability to raise the stakes of sensibility and not to drown in the emotions of the message boards. I think that the company has not given us an offer that we can be serious about just yet, and yes, the union is being heavy-handed as well, which is just doing their job. If I can say one thing critical of our negotiating committee, they should never walk out of a meeting during negotiations-PERIOD! So much so, that's it's almost an unforgivable action.

I'm not quite sure where the negotiating committee went off with the percentage of seniority thing, and quite frankly, I think it just serves to confuse the contract even more than it has been already. Yep, we've got a bunch of people on Year 5 salary and it's time they all got paid properly if they've been staying here on a promise of good times for at least four years.

Family Guy, you can be as upset as anyone with the request for full retro-pay, but what offer did you exactly expect them to come back with you at? The contract became "amendable" in October of 2001. I'm not sure how we ever came under the RLA, seeing as though we don't fly mail or haul coal, but for all practical purposes, the contract expired in 2001. There was an expectation on the part of the old MEC and even the present President of NJA of "kick ass pay". What happened to that?!

Now you are saying that a First Officer with an average of 8,000 hours who comes to work here is not worth as much as a Flight Attendant, who is really only there as a CSR and fulfills no regulatory requirement on a Falcon?! Come on Sir! Get real!

Alright, lets get down to brass-tacks. You guys can pull our planes under a self-help plan of some kind and put them on a "replacement" plan at another certificate such as EJM. You could even buy another struggling fractional and park them all there and advertise for replacement pilots in the Wall Street Journal.

How much are you going to pay these replacement pilots?

They're not going to work for less than NBAA average. Certainly not to cross a picket line.

Alright, we all agree, that we haven't been released, but the customers are asking some serious questions about the future of the company from the perspective of the pilots. They're getting worried, and slightly embarrassed to know they've been part of such a financial misfortune for those that came here on the promise of so much more.

You already know who I am, but this is not about me. This is about all of the people who came here from dilapidated airlines in 2001 with a dream to rebuild their hopes of a stable future, a financially viable retirement, a happy marriage and to wear a uniform proudly for a company that they love working for, while they fly the best of the best.

You have a responsibility in management to ensure that succesful outcome. They came here on that promise!

There is enough blame to go around, but it's time!

Git 'R Done!!!!

 

[JustInfo]

Hawkered -

"they should never walk out of a meeting during negotiations-PERIOD! "

I agree. That was my feeling too. business is business, you don't walk out throwing a fit like my 8 year old. Emotions have no part in this, unfortunately this is a prob for both sides.

 

[old*art]

You guys must not have been reading all the info - our negotiators got up and left because the company was using the union supplied info against them. To negotiate further would have been negotiating against themselves. It is like the company opening with one dollar, a ten dollar response, then the company comes back with $.75 and wanting to tell everyone how generous they are being - not very serious bargaining.

 

[Turbinehead]

Didnt know you cared Diesel

man turbine haven't heard from you in a while. Where you been?

Been hanging around the hangar pumping that Diesel and working at the 7-11 at night. The usual bullsheet. Where you been, Diesel?

Thought I saw you at Tac Air today. Was that you out there with the informational picket?

Silly pilots. You do not like where you work, go out and find a new job!

More to your job than money. How about the other work rules? What are they worth? IF you could put a dollar amount on job security, and those nice big fat high calorie crew meals you eat 4 times a day, then id say your job is worth many millions more rupies than you think.

Get real and save the whine. Please. You are driving my turbine over 102% with all of this crying and belly aching.

T.

Dont hate me because i'm beautiful.

 

[Fracster]

Something that all of you have forgotten or maybe not have known is under the previous MEC and negotiations the company on a routine basis did not even show up for scheduled meetings. During many meetings when they did show up they did so significantly late. Also the company would request a specific amount of time to confer during a meeting and then not even return.

Anyone who is blaming the union for walking out has not understood the precedent set by the company. On many recent occasions Boisture and his team have walked out of meetings as well.

 

[JustInfo]

So its the "I know you are but what am I" baragining strategy? The company walked out previously so we have to now. There is no excuse for EITHER side to be walking out, further evidence of the poor management skills then if they have walked out, it does not mean the negotiators should do the same. I have always been a little nervous of how the new negotiators conduct themselves, I guess that is the teamster way, go get the baseball bats....AS for management, we know what a joke they have turned out to be. First step in settling this needs to be some new blood in the top seats, he has blown it repeatedly.

 

[Hawkered]

Just Info

That will get us absolutely nowhere. We don't need more confusion at the top. We need unity throughout the company. With a solid contract and an environment of mutual respect we can all rebuild this company together. I have helped rebuild a company before, you'd be surprised by the differences in only 90 days.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Alright then......

Family Guy,

I commend your ability to raise the stakes of sensibility and not to drown in the emotions of the message boards. I think that the company has not given us an offer that we can be serious about just yet, and yes, the union is being heavy-handed as well, which is just doing their job. If I can say one thing critical of our negotiating committee, they should never walk out of a meeting during negotiations-PERIOD! So much so, that's it's almost an unforgivable action.

Thanks Hawker....it can be difficult at times to ignore the rhetoric and dogma that seems to be prevalent here. Sadly, even though you and I can have a civil, professional discussion on these boards, it doesnt seem to rub off on some of the others.

I agree with you on the walking out of negotiations. I know it is a tactic that some negotiation experts advocate periodically, but in this setting, at this point in time, I dont think it helps anyone.

Does your comment about the lack of a credible offer from the company include the latest offer?

Family Guy, you can be as upset as anyone with the request for full retro-pay, but what offer did you exactly expect them to come back with you at? The contract became "amendable" in October of 2001. I'm not sure how we ever came under the RLA, seeing as though we don't fly mail or haul coal, but for all practical purposes, the contract expired in 2001. There was an expectation on the part of the old MEC and even the present President of NJA of "kick ass pay". What happened to that?!

At this late juncture, I dont think it is wise or appropriate to come in looking for $200,000 per pilot for retro. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to crunch the numbers and realize that the sums being demanded are clearly more than the company can pay and stay in business.

Clearly the pilots deserve a raise. IMHO they should get the most that the company can afford. I can not support wage increases for anyone that puts the entire structure at risk. From our vantage point, the total pay package appears to be a 33% increase. Does this fit the pilot group's expectations? At this point I'm skeptical that even a 100% increase would meet expectations.

Now you are saying that a First Officer with an average of 8,000 hours who comes to work here is not worth as much as a Flight Attendant, who is really only there as a CSR and fulfills no regulatory requirement on a Falcon?! Come on Sir! Get real!

First of all, I dont think I've ever advocated that a Flight Attendant get paid more than a First Officer. If you could show me where I've done this then I will apologize for my error.

However, after working at multiple different companies over the length of my career, I do know how these perceived inequities occur. I've seen a long term secretary make more than a new hire front line employee...happens all the time. Is it right? That's debatable.

The overall point is that LIFE IS NOT FAIR. If we are going to pay all jobs according to levels of responsibility then in my opinion, none of us would make more money than teachers, police officers, and fire fighters. No athlete or CEO would make more money than the President of the United States. Our military would make more money than it does. The list is very long......

As for our flight attendants, I suspect that you have two issues at work - a long term employee vs new hire issue, and also a union vs non-union issue. The flight attendants were only recently unionized. Prior to that they were performance based employees like everyone else and received their merit raises like everyone else, while the pilots were locked into their CBA. Is the situation fair? No. But that's the way things are. Now that the Flight Attendants have chosen to unionize, I suspect their wages will correct over time and you wont see FA's making more than FO's, at any point in their careers.

 

[Hawkered]

Family Guy,

You know I have a "fair outcome" in mind, but I am not an elected official of this union, so regrettably, I am bound by a single secret ballot.

I am not impressed by the name calling from one of our elected officials this morning in his frustration. He is sounding more like a wound-up three year old that didn't get his candy at the store than a paid mature professional.

We are all frustrated, but I think its time to move on. We should just maintain the scope provisions of NJI, settle on a reasonable signing bonus and come back with a reasonable counter-offer.

Some will get mad and leave...we are better off without them anyway!