Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[dsptchrnja]

You never responded to my quieries as to why you used a nickname on this message board. What was up with that? Remember what I told you, "In the end, all will be revealed".....

I don't remember you sticking up for the non-union girl on this board last spring when Diesel threatened to make her name public. Did you PM Diesel, or anything? Why is it only important when you feel threatened?

 

[abenaki]

dsptchrnja--

1) Was I aware of the incident that you refer to? I don't remember being aware of it..... I honestly don't remember. If I was, then shame on me for not doing something about it. If I wasn't, then shame on you for making an assumption. I'm suposed to remember some bit of information from this board from LAST SPRING? Are you kidding me? Good grief, man, I have a life......

2) I find it interesting that you don't answer the issue but take it on a different track.

3) Do I find it threatening? Yes. That was the point of his doing it, wasn't it?

4) Is it only important when I feel threatened? Geez.....Nothing like making an assumption there, dsptchr......I think any abuse of power such as this is abhorrent. I suppose those that excercise such power in these kind of situations are quite smug about it and I'm sure that it makes the insecure feel powerful. There is no other explanation as to why someone would do something like this.

That is truly reflective of his character and cowardice if that was his intent. Since he has not answered me about this issue publically or prvately, I can only conclude as to his intentions.

 

[FAcFriend]

Hey Abe

Thanks for looking out for me on the legal issues but the post was not on the private pilot board- it was on the ASAP board IBT 1108 and was under the "employees" section. The union update was changed today-

Anyone can go read the message.

 

[abenaki]

FacFriend--My bad...sorry.....didn't realize that it was the public side of things...my apologies....

 

[Stealthh21]

Can you please just strike already. Seriously.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Will the union move forward and hire a company to get out of abeyance?

Here you go:

What “BM” didn’t tell you is that when the Company questioned us about the “Financial Audit” on Monday, we responded with an offer to complete such a review, but, it would not be cursory. We told him that any audit that would have any credibility with the “Union” would have to be a very serious forensic audit, that we would not question the math on the books, but rather look for where the profits are spent, who is getting them, and why. Additionally, and left out of "BM's" message, the questions that we would have answered on a full scale forensic audit were discussed between Union and Company attorneys several months ago, this was no surprise. Mr. Boisture simply has no stomach for such a review.

Who is it again that doesn't want the audit?

 

[Gandolf]

For those who think walking out of a negotiation environment is an unforgivable sin, you are wrong. It is actually quite often recommended in numerous negotiating texts (For example: see Getting to Yes; Fisher, Ury, and Patton). When a party makes a ridiculously one sided offer, there is a danger that it becomes a reference or anchor point in the negotiation. Many theorists recommend breaking off the negotiation at that point by walking out. Obviously, it is something that loses its effectiveness if done gratuitously, but after 4 years of negotiating, it was undoubtedly warranted in this case.

 

[FAcFriend]

ultra,

First i read family guys response that a forensic audit costs alot of money and then i thought again-

this is about control. and the union officials are not in control of the money-

A regular audit of all NetJets Inc. companies will show how much money is transferred between the cos.

A forensic audit is different. As a president, I would not allow anyone to conduct a forensic audit of the company's books or of my personal books.

I understand this is a fine line and i can see both arguments, but why not do the regular audit and then ask the q's if you want more info.

Are you guys really ready to pay 100s of thousands of dollars for a forensic audit? Also I dont think that you should have access to BB compensation package. Sorry- you are not management.

 

[Hogprint]

Fac Posted:

why not do the regular audit and then ask the q's if you want more info.

In a perfect world this might float. At this stage of the game, the company will only use it as leverage and a propaganda tool.
We don't need to waste time or money for someone to affirm that 2+2=4. A clear thorough forensic search is what is needed here. Notice how the company scurries like roaches from a light on this.

Yes, we are prepared to spend money to get to the truth. The company has spent 15mil on a GV vendor, plus millions more on vendors to cover for the holidays. Will you hold them accountable for that?

 

[Fozzy]

"I understand this is a fine line and i can see both arguments, but why not do the regular audit and then ask the q's if you want more info."

Why? Because a majority of the pilots at NJA say the do not care about the audit. One, we do not believe the numbers. Two, our pay is linked to management fees. Not enough money, raise the fees.

So enough of this audit crap, it is just a waste of electrons. Pay us or shut the doors.

 

[notwithnjanymor]

Fozzy -

This line of thinking is a large part of why I am no longer with NJ. You don't believe the numbers. Do you realize that NJ is audited each year by an external Big 4 Account firm - E&Y etc. They are far more qualified to determine if the numbers are legit than you, I, or the union leadership. They haven't found any discrepancies so I tend to believe the basic numbers are pretty accurate. Now don't get me wrong - I don't know the numbers - that wasn't my area but to just blindly say you don't believe it when you haven't looked is foolish. Maybe the hidden money is in those dilly bars.

You next point is the linkage between managment fees and pilot salaries. you don't make enough so just raise the fees. Do you know much about business? If you raise prices above your competitors your existing customers and new customers will be more likely to go to the competition instead of to you. I've owned my own business and can unequivically testify that is the truth in business. you might make more off your existing customers but your base shrinks. end result is flat or maybe even decreased revenue. Sounds like a solution.

The attitude of pay us or shut the doors is just as foolish - it's like the old adage of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I've I haven't lost you to blind hatred yet understand this - the pilots that I met while with NetJets are tremendous professionals. Without question they deserve higher pay. I am not there anymore for two reasons - concern over the attitude of pay us or shut down and because I wan't being paid what I am worth either. I probably would have put up with the pay but I don't see much willingness to negotiate in good faith from either side and see a bad end to this. Maybe one of you (union and managment) will come to your senses. I hope so - I truly believe it's was a great company and could become so again.

 

[x402]

Fozzy -

This line of thinking is a large part of why I am no longer with NJ. You don't believe the numbers. Do you realize that NJ is audited each year by an external Big 4 Account firm - E&Y etc. They are far more qualified to determine if the numbers are legit than you, I, or the union leadership. They haven't found any discrepancies so I tend to believe the basic numbers are pretty accurate. Now don't get me wrong - I don't know the numbers - that wasn't my area but to just blindly say you don't believe it when you haven't looked is foolish. Maybe the hidden money is in those dilly bars.

Well, Ernst and Young could care less about where the money goes. The exchanges and the interaction between the BH components are legal, for the most part. The problem lies in discovering those links and interactions.
Just because the auditors and the IRS say it's OK doesn't allow them to tell us (NJA pilots) that they cannot aford the raises we seek. Pay the vendors and everyone else what you want we don't care until you tell us,' there isn't enough for pilot raises.' What works for cost accounting and keeping a lean bottom line doesn't work for us, this just pisses us off, sorry.

You next point is the linkage between managment fees and pilot salaries. you don't make enough so just raise the fees. Do you know much about business? If you raise prices above your competitors your existing customers and new customers will be more likely to go to the competition instead of to you. I've owned my own business and can unequivically testify that is the truth in business. you might make more off your existing customers but your base shrinks. end result is flat or maybe even decreased revenue. Sounds like a solution.
The company has already stated they do not want to raise rates to keep market share, this is a failing tactic. Just look at the recent AIN articles leaving NJA at the bottom of owner renewals. Customer service combined with afordability will be the challange in the next 5 years, not low price.

The attitude of pay us or shut the doors is just as foolish - it's like the old adage of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Great ideas fail because leaders don't lead they fall back on old ideas. Great companies fail, everyday.

I've I haven't lost you to blind hatred yet understand this - the pilots that I met while with NetJets are tremendous professionals. Without question they deserve higher pay. I am not there anymore for two reasons - concern over the attitude of pay us or shut down and because I wan't being paid what I am worth either. I probably would have put up with the pay but I don't see much willingness to negotiate in good faith from either side and see a bad end to this. Maybe one of you (union and managment) will come to your senses. I hope so - I truly believe it's was a great company and could become so again.

I hope youre right!

 

[Fozzy]

thankgodyouarenotwithnjaanymore,

I am glad you left. You are another A teamer looking to get the job done so you can get your pat on the back. Good luck with your new job.
Do you know what is going on in this industry? CS just raised their MMF. We have had "artificially low management fees" for years now to drive out competition. This is straight from BM's mouth. So excuse me while I tell you to F off.

I truly do not care if this place fails. I will not help this industry's race to the bottom. I am also sitting in CMH with MANY current employee's, and everyone that I am sitting here with drinking free beers are all in agreement. We will not take it any more. Pay or die. Simple.

So I am happy for you. I am even happier that you left so you are not being a fing A teamer working against us. Your opinion does not matter anymore, so go back to your hole.

 

[Bad Monkey!]

You next point is the linkage between managment fees and pilot salaries. you don't make enough so just raise the fees. Do you know much about business? If you raise prices above your competitors your existing customers and new customers will be more likely to go to the competition instead of to you. I've owned my own business and can unequivically testify that is the truth in business. you might make more off your existing customers but your base shrinks. end result is flat or maybe even decreased revenue. Sounds like a solution.

.

Did you even stay awake in economics 101????

WTFO???

Its called supply and demand. We have more demand then product to deliver. Simple econ- raise the rates to match demand= equilebrium.

First two quarters we reported that income was UP $400,000,000.00 from same time last year. Let's see, project that out for the rest of the year and we will be $800,000,000.00 above what we made last year.. Like I said WTFO?? what don't you understand???

The company is allright with taking money and not having enough assets to cover flying, yet the egomniacs will not pay pilots. Pilots make airplane go from point A to B.

Like I said you should have stayed awake in class.

AMF

 

[Bad Monkey!]

Let me also respond to the fact that the MMF's have been kept artifically low, it's called predatory pricing practices and is against federal law.

Now that it's all out WAR I think that this will come to light and you will now see a federal case coming down to bear. Can you say supeonas for BB, Shamtulli, Buffett, et el.?

There are over two thousand pilot witnesses to statements made by management to this fact in company recurrent class.

Bye by scum sucking management.

 

[notwithnjanymor]

I guess I'll take the bait and respond.

As far as working to get a pat on the back I probably would have had a friggin' heart attack if I had ever gotten the pat I deserved. That wasn't why I did my job or why I do the one I do now or have done any of the jobs I have ever done. I left for 3 reasons. 1. Lack of faith in management (Believe it or not). 2. pay (non-pilots don't get paid market either). 3. The negotiations situation. I did love this company but I didn't trust either mgmnt nor the union to do the right thing. So I did.

Artificially low managment fees. No argument - they are. I'll excuse you - you can't help it.

Thank you for confirming part of my reasoning for leaving. My father had the same line of reasoning with his union/company when I was growing up in deciding either pay us or die. His union went on strike and within 2 years the company died and I watched him without comparable work or standard of living for 5 years. Just keep a copy of this so when it does go under, you don't have a job, and the beers aren't free (but the government cheese does taste good with it) you can remember how happy you are about it.

As I said in my original post - the pilots I met and worked with were all tremendous professionals and deserve a great raise - as do 90% of the the operations and support folks. Maybe you'll get your raise and it'll all be ok but I doubt it. neither side seems capable of rational negotiation at this point.

So sit back, sip your beer, call me names, be pissed off, and do what you feel you have to do. I already did what I had to do to make sure your decision doesn't affect my family.

thankgodyouarenotwithnjaanymore,

I am glad you left. You are another A teamer looking to get the job done so you can get your pat on the back. Good luck with your new job.
Do you know what is going on in this industry? CS just raised their MMF. We have had "artificially low management fees" for years now to drive out competition. This is straight from BM's mouth. So excuse me while I tell you to F off.

I truly do not care if this place fails. I will not help this industry's race to the bottom. I am also sitting in CMH with MANY current employee's, and everyone that I am sitting here with drinking free beers are all in agreement. We will not take it any more. Pay or die. Simple.

So I am happy for you. I am even happier that you left so you are not being a fing A teamer working against us. Your opinion does not matter anymore, so go back to your hole.

 

[Diesel]

notwithnjaanymore what fleet where you in?

 

[Fozzy]

I guess you still don't get it. I am excited about what your father did. He had the balls to stand up for himself. I guess you are the type that only takes a fight that he knows he will win. I take the fights that I believe are right. That is the difference between you and I. And I guess that is the difference between you and your father.
As far as me saving a copy of this for a later date. I personally like the idea of my peers looking at us and saying, "Damn, those boys had balls. They fought a good fight and put that place under before giving up.". To me that is an acceptable outcome. Not giving in to some greedy upper class prick. I am sure you will say how stupid that is for this and that reason. I understand that. You don't have the stomach to fight. That is fine. I am just glad you don't have my back.
But there is 1900 pilots who do.

 

[FamilyGuy]

dsptchrnja--

1) Was I aware of the incident that you refer to? I don't remember being aware of it..... I honestly don't remember. If I was, then shame on me for not doing something about it. If I wasn't, then shame on you for making an assumption. I'm suposed to remember some bit of information from this board from LAST SPRING? Are you kidding me? Good grief, man, I have a life......

2) I find it interesting that you don't answer the issue but take it on a different track.

3) Do I find it threatening? Yes. That was the point of his doing it, wasn't it?

4) Is it only important when I feel threatened? Geez.....Nothing like making an assumption there, dsptchr......I think any abuse of power such as this is abhorrent. I suppose those that excercise such power in these kind of situations are quite smug about it and I'm sure that it makes the insecure feel powerful. There is no other explanation as to why someone would do something like this.

That is truly reflective of his character and cowardice if that was his intent. Since he has not answered me about this issue publically or prvately, I can only conclude as to his intentions.

abenaki - you need to relax. I figured I knew who you were so I referenced you via your nickname....no real names were used. Your reaction confirmed it. No threats intended.

As many other people have noted on here, its really easy to figure out who's who, especially if you've been at NetJets as long as I have.

And stop with the righteous indignation. It is totally misplaced.

As dispatcher pointed out, if you were truly concerned with people's privacy you would have rebuked your union brothers when they posted the following:

Posted 9-14-05 Hello welcome to Bob Ubanks AKA Bridgeway Bob.

Posted 8-14-05 www.chipwillis.com

Posted 6-10-05 Move on and don't try to push us because I will post your name and 4 digit extension number on this website.

This is just a sample from the last three months as you can see from the posting dates.

I used a nickname - no name or readily identifiable information. Your union cohorts have posted actual names....so what are you going to do about it?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Fac Posted:

In a perfect world this might float. At this stage of the game, the company will only use it as leverage and a propaganda tool.

Hog - so how would you classify the union's use of information related to Mr. Boisture's purported salary on this board?

Given how readily that figure is bandied about on this board I think I can understand why the company may balk at giving the union unfettered access to the books.

What's to stop them from going on a witch hunt and publicly broadcasting any and all executive salary packages?

Where's the accountability on the union's part to make sure that confidential information remains confidential?