Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[FamilyGuy]

[font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
NetJets Pilot [/font]
[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gateway, USA[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$57,996[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$60,984[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$64,188[/font]

Hey Grump....I'm getting conflicting statements from the union. Can you reconcile these statements for me?

1. - your post above, stating that NJ pilots median wage is $60,984.

2. - Pilot Union leaders being quoted in the Columbus Dispatch on April 30th, 2005 stating that NetJets Pilots average between $50,000 and $72,000.

3. - Union website Owners section states "The majority of our pilots have a salary of less than $50,000 per year. "

What's true and what's false?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Oh, and just for fun:

Captain/PIC (Small Jet) [font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25th%ile [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Median [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]75th%ile
[/font][font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New York, NY[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$97,097[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$113,099[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$134,543[/font]

[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Los Angeles, CA[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$93,694[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$109,136[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$129,828[/font]

[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the United States[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$86,028[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$101,574[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$122,487[/font]

Here's the job description these salaries are based on:

[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ensures that trip of assigned flight (aircraft smaller than 12,500 pounds at takeoff) is conducted in the safest manner possible....

I'd be pretty happy with the national average pay, and we don't even have any of those <12,500 jets...[/font]

okay...I'll play....

Why are you relying on salary.com (source for Monster.com salary data) to research pilot wages when more comprehensive and accurate data can be found on airlinepilotpay.com?

I've posted the following summaries of NJ vs Airlines, Regionals, and Fractionals before....

For perspective, here's the current payscales for 5 year captain for NetJets, the other fractionals, and a sampling of airlines. All data came from airlinepilotpay.com.

NetJets.................60,984
CitationShares..... 63,996
FlightOptions....... 66,372
FlexJet..................70,737

Delta................. 115,440
American........... 112,128
United................. 93,600
Continental....... 116,640
US Air................ 100,224
America West.... 115,128
JetBlue.............. 101,640
ComAir................ 61,200
Pinnacle.............. 55,800

Once you get that 25% - 30% raise it looks like you'll be right in the thick of things.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Is this info any good? Which TA was this from and has the offer gotten better or worse?
FIRST OFFICER - 7on 7off SCHEDULE (All Classes)
YR1 - $ 33,500 Old YR1 - $ 27,108 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 34,760 Old YR2 - $ 28,368 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 36,020 Old YR3 - $ 29,628 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 37,280 Old YR4 - $ 30,888 ($6,392/yr Diff - $532/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 38,540 Old YR5 - $ 32,160 ($6,380/yr Diff - $531/month add. pay)

FIRST OFFICER - RESERVE SCHEDULE (Old Flex) (All Classes)
YR1 - $ 39,000 Old YR1 - $ 32,364 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 40,260 Old YR2 - $ 33,624 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 41,520 Old YR3 - $ 34,884 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 42,780 Old YR4 - $ 36,144 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 44,040 Old YR5 - $ 37,404 ($6,636/yr Diff - $553/month add. pay)

CAPTAIN - 7on 7off SCHEDULE (ALL CLASSES)
YR1 - $ 41,500 Old YR1 - $ 37,560 ($3,940/yr Diff - $329/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 44,000 Old YR2 - $ 39,816 ($4,184/yr Diff - $349/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 53,000 Old YR3 - $ 47,208 ($5,792/yr Diff - $483/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 65,000 Old YR4 - $ 57,996 ($7,004/yr Diff - $584/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 69,000 Old YR5 - $ 60,984 ($8,016/yr Diff - $668/month add. pay)
YR6 - $ 71,500 Old YR6 - $ 64,188 ($7,312/yr Diff - $610/month add. pay)
YR7 - $ 74,000 Old YR7 - $ 67,560 ($6,440/yr Diff - $537/month add. pay)
YR8 - $ 80,000 Old YR8 - $ 74,496 ($5,504/yr Diff - $459/month add. pay)

CAPTAIN - RESERVE SCHEDULE (Old FLEX) (ALL CLASSES)
YR1 - $ 52,500 Old YR1 - $ 48,060 ($4,440/yr Diff - $370/month add. pay)
YR2 - $ 55,000 Old YR2 - $ 50,316 ($4,684/yr Diff - $391/month add. pay)
YR3 - $ 64,000 Old YR3 - $ 57,708 ($6,292/yr Diff - $525/month add. pay)
YR4 - $ 76,000 Old YR4 - $ 68,496 ($7,504/yr Diff - $626/month add. pay)
YR5 - $ 80,000 Old YR5 - $ 71,484 ($8,516/yr Diff - $710/month add. pay)
YR6 - $ 82,500 Old YR6 - $ 74,688 ($7,812/yr Diff - $651/month add. pay)
YR7 - $ 85,000 Old YR7 - $ 78,060 ($6,940/yr Diff - $579/month add. pay)
YR8 - $ 91,000 Old YR8 - $ 84,996 ($6,004/yr Diff - $501/month add. pay)

The new proposal starts the first year FO off about $38K and goes to about $81K (bypass) for a 10 yr FO (unlikely).

The reserve schedule starts FO's off about $45K in yr1 and goes to about $96K (bypass) for a 10 yr FO (unlikey).

For Capt: The first year Capt (7/7) starts off about $51K for lowest 10th seniority and goes to over $100K for a 10 year Capt in the highest 10th seniority. Reserve Schedule between about $60k and over $120K. All these number increase between 3.5% and 5% each year of the contract. COLA not included in proposal.

An intenational Premium wage scale was proposed that ranges from around $100K to over $200K for PIC depending on seniority and schedule.

Now you have the unbiased truth, you can make your own opinion.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Here is an example of the companys " pay increase"

Im a 4th year captain. Next year I will get $60,984 ...with Mr. Moistures proposal, I will get $60,330. SOME RAISE ...

The company is using a matrix chart to screw the majority of the pilots. At 5 years of service, I'm in the 25 percentile portion of the chart. The company has skewed a normal curve so that the majority of the pilots ( 70% remain in the lower 40% of the chart, thus no or low payout over your current salary).

The bastard didnt even have the decency to post the WHOLE chart so the pilots could see where each stands. Our union had to post the company chart. The company puts out propaganda that only makes them look good. The details belong to the devil...

I will shut this f****r down rather than accept this crap. And it looks like a slow death for the company if they continue on the road to hell they are on now.

The latest proposal has you at over $63K for the data you mentioned assuming you work the 7 on 7 off.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Nice job of selective editing Grump.

Why did you choose Los Angeles and New York City for your comparisons?

This seems odd, since less than 5% of NetJets pilots live in those cities.

Wouldnt a better comparator be the national average? Especially since NetJets pilots can, and do, live all over the country?

To save you the time...here's the figures for you. (by the way, the source is monster.com)

National Averages.....25th%....Median......75th%
High School Teacher..$38,015...$47,979...$56,356
Principal...................$56,891...$69,376...$84,413
Fire Fighter...............$27,709...$36,944...$46,181
Highway Patrol...........$32,553...$40,686...$49,183
Police Patrol Officer....$37,120...$44,547...$52,554
Police Sergeant..........$50,003...$56,861...$63,679

NetJets Pilot..............$57,996...$60,984....$64,188

Looks like my original point is still valid. So, since the pilots make more than teachers, firefighters, and police officers, is Steel willing to give his excess salary to charity and pass on that reasonable raise? After all, we want everything to be fair and people paid according to responsibility...

What "reasonable" raise? The current offer is not a raise for most of us. If anything, it's a wash.

I chose LA and NY because they are the most expensive cities in the country, and they are gateways of NJA. If you want us all to live in Pig's Knuckle, Arkansas, then you shouldn't have LA and NY as gateways.

You're right, a NetJets Captain makes more than a patrol officer, an elementary school teacher, and a firefighter. They don't make more than a police sergeant (comparable responsibility), school principal, or fire captain. Let's compare starting salaries for those jobs...oh yeah, I did, and you chose to ignore it.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Hey Grump....I'm getting conflicting statements from the union. Can you reconcile these statements for me?

1. - your post above, stating that NJ pilots median wage is $60,984.

Median = half make more and half make less. The median pilot is a 5th year guy, so 5th year pay is median.

2. - Pilot Union leaders being quoted in the Columbus Dispatch on April 30th, 2005 stating that NetJets Pilots average between $50,000 and $72,000.

No conflict here. Last time I checked, $60,984 is between $50k and $72k (almost exactly halfway, as a matter of fact).

3. - Union website Owners section states "The majority of our pilots have a salary of less than $50,000 per year. "

Depends when it was written. You have to remember that we've been in negotiations for 4 years. The majority of our pilots are 5th year pay and less. So if it were written 2 years ago, it was accurate. I didn't write it, and haven't seen it, so I can't answer that. Probably needs to be updated.

 

[FamilyGuy]

What "reasonable" raise? The current offer is not a raise for most of us. If anything, it's a wash.

I chose LA and NY because they are the most expensive cities in the country, and they are gateways of NJA. If you want us all to live in Pig's Knuckle, Arkansas, then you shouldn't have LA and NY as gateways.

You're right, a NetJets Captain makes more than a patrol officer, an elementary school teacher, and a firefighter. They don't make more than a police sergeant (comparable responsibility), school principal, or fire captain. Let's compare starting salaries for those jobs...oh yeah, I did, and you chose to ignore it.

I ignored it? No. I pointed out that LA and NY is not a good comparison since less than 5% of NJ pilots have that as their gateway....

You've apparently chosen to ignore that fact.

You've also chosen to ignore the fact that using NATIONAL AVERAGES NetJets pilots make more than High School Teachers, Fire Fighters, Highway Patrol Officers, Police Patrol Officers, and Police Sergeants.

Now, since NetJets pilots can and do live all over the country (95+% live outside of NY and LA) then give me a good reason why you wouldnt compare wages against the national average?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Depends when it was written. You have to remember that we've been in negotiations for 4 years. The majority of our pilots are 5th year pay and less. So if it were written 2 years ago, it was accurate. I didn't write it, and haven't seen it, so I can't answer that. Probably needs to be updated.

Item #3 is on the IBT1108 website....How long has that been around?

Seems pretty recent to me....

 

[NJACMH]

High School Teachers, Fire Fighters, Highway Patrol Officers, Police Patrol Officers, and Police Sergeants.

It's too bad there wages are so bad. They actually educate and help our communities, while some put their lives on the line.

I am friends with and have relatives in those areas and they never cry about what they make. Their integrity is much greater.


Please only compare fellow avaiators and company's not other careers.

 

[Ultra Grump]

okay...I'll play....

Why are you relying on salary.com (source for Monster.com salary data) to research pilot wages when more comprehensive and accurate data can be found on airlinepilotpay.com?

Because I was comparing apples and apples - all info from the same place (salary.com), so theoretically similar inaccuracies. When I couldn't get starting salaries there, I had to look elsewhere, and did not include "Small Jet Captain" pay. You were perfectly happy to rely on that less "comprehensive and accurate data" when it suited you, though, weren't you?

Once you get that 25% - 30% raise it looks like you'll be right in the thick of things.

Your figures for CitationShares are wrong, since they only have 1st year salaries listed - 5th year salary is tied to how much butt you kiss for those 5 years.
Flexjet only has daily rates listed. At 204 days (= our 17-day sched), 5th year is $80,172. 182 days (7-7) is $71,526.
CitationShares 5th-year mid capt is $71,100, large capt is $79,800.

I guess it all depends on which numbers you pick, huh?

By comparison, with the company's "reasonable" offer, the median 5th year NetJets Captain will make $69,985.

If by "in the thick of things" you mean "at the bottom of the barrel," you'd be right.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I ignored it? No. I pointed out that LA and NY is not a good comparison since less than 5% of NJ pilots have that as their gateway....

You've apparently chosen to ignore that fact.

Asked and answered. Read it again.

You've also chosen to ignore the fact that using NATIONAL AVERAGES NetJets pilots make more than High School Teachers, Fire Fighters, Highway Patrol Officers, Police Patrol Officers, and Police Sergeants.

This just proves that you don't actually read the posts you reply to.

Now, since NetJets pilots can and do live all over the country (95+% live outside of NY and LA) then give me a good reason why you wouldnt compare wages against the national average?

Because we don't all live in CMH.

I have to go comfort my wife now, who's a little freaked out about the JetBlue thing. The wife and baby of a man she works with were on that flight.

 

[Hawkered]

Ultra Grump,

All well written, yet overly emotional response, hopefully Family Guy will not fall victim to the same emotions.

It's time to call a spade a spade and for the company to truly make a good faith final offer. One that doesn't ask an F/O to wait five years before s/he has pay parity to a CSR fulfilling a psuedo flight attendant role.

I blame both sides.

Walking out on negotiations went out with junk bond trading in the 1980's. We live in a faster paced society now with high commitment and low margin of error.

The company needs to make an offer that will end the frustrations that are being felt now and allow the company to heal quickly.

We need to be treated with respect and we all need to start showing respect in kind.

 

[IFlyOU]

Sorry, but I am not troll or family guy.

I just would like to know how you guys can sit back and complain about a company that is supporting a wage for you?

Whenever I don't like a company or need a change. I take my credientials and experience and leave for a greener pasture.

I see so many here who tell others not to come here, but they are probably the ones who will jump the fence and still want to work once the strike happens.

I don't care who you are or what profession your are in. If you don't like it get the he?? out.

This company is going to run so much better once the union is gone and we have employees who want to work.

AMEN!

If you're so miserable, then leave. You'll do us all a favor. If you want to strike, then strike. Personally I hope we fire all of you that do so we can weed out these hardcore crybaby minorities that break everything they touch because they hate everything in life and take the hardworkers that made this country what it is today for granted. Now kiss my AVATAR and STFD.

 

[Hawkered]

Totally uncalled for..we have people who have kids in college and mortgage payments to make, who are now paying $3.00 a gallon for gas to drive hundreds of miles to sit in crew rot.

Those same people were promised "kick-ass pay" by both sides of negotiations years ago and are now getting extremely frustrated.

I only ask for some professional integrity on both sides of the argument.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Totally uncalled for..we have people who have kids in college and mortgage payments to make, who are now paying $3.00 a gallon for gas to drive hundreds of miles to sit in crew rot.

Those same people were promised "kick-ass pay" by both sides of negotiations years ago and are now getting extremely frustrated.

I only ask for some professional integrity on both sides of the argument.

Agreed Hawkered. We are long overdue to treat each other with respect and professional integrity. Hopefully both sides can see their way to an amicable resolution in the near future.

 

[FamilyGuy]

You were perfectly happy to rely on that less "comprehensive and accurate data" when it suited you, though, weren't you?

Not at all. I believe airlinepilotpay.com will yield much more accurate and comprehensive data.

I replied using your source since it is far more effective to prove my point with your source.

Your source clearly shows that NJ pilots national avg wage is superior to the other professions national wages.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Depends when it was written. You have to remember that we've been in negotiations for 4 years. The majority of our pilots are 5th year pay and less. So if it were written 2 years ago, it was accurate. I didn't write it, and haven't seen it, so I can't answer that. Probably needs to be updated.

Item #3 is on the IBT1108 website....How long has that been around?

Seems pretty recent to me....

Hey Grump...on further reflection it occured to me that one of your main points is that the pilot group has worked since 1998 without a raise.

If this is accurate, then would it matter when this was written? 4 years ago, 2 years ago, last week... the pay scale hasnt changed....so does it really matter when this was written?

 

[Bad Monkey!]

This company is going to run so much better once the union is gone and we have employees who want to work.

Sorry, you really don't have a clue do you.

It's a union shop and the only way to get rid of the union on the property is to file for bankrupcy protection and go through the court system to try and abolish the union contract. The problem with that is-
1. Berkshire Hathaway owns us.
2. Berkshire Hathaway is a privatly owned company.
3. Berkshire Hathaway would have to open up all of the books to claim poverty to the court system.
4. Berkshire Hathaway owns NetJets which is composed of seven compainies under the NetJets name.

Think single carrier suit and that is the catch 22 of why the union will always be here.

Personally I like the rumor that Goldman Sacks wants to buy us (NJA)for $3 billion. From what I hear from an inside source management should be scared.

But WTF, the egomaniac shamtulli wants this to be a hobby. So be it; you get what you pay for.

 

[gunfyter]

inside source? Not that nutty Dr james?

 

[Ultra Grump]

Ultra Grump,All well written, yet overly emotional response, hopefully Family Guy will not fall victim to the same emotions.

"Overly emotional." That's funny. I'm probably the least emotional person you'd ever meet. But I pretty much agree with the rest of your post. Until the company gives us their best, last, and final offer, the rest is just wasted paper and electrons. Once they do, we'll then see the result.