Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[Sarka]

Personally I like the rumor that Goldman Sacks wants to buy us (NJA)for $3 billion. From what I hear from an inside source management should be scared.

I heard from a reliable source that all of the corrupt and inept schedulers that practice vindictive scheduling are pooling all the kick-back money in their paypal accounts that they got as gifts and favors from the pilots on the "A" list so they can buy the company.

Pilot's should be scared.


(Sorry, I'm just tired of this whole situation.)

 

[Ultra Grump]

Why are you relying on salary.com (source for Monster.com salary data) to research pilot wages when more comprehensive and accurate data can be found on airlinepilotpay.com?

To be honest, I wasn't using it to research pilot data (notice the preface of that particular post). I was using it to research police, firemen, and teachers. And apparently it is erroneous, on the low side, judging by some of the starting salaries I found. I just thought I'd see what it had to say about pilot pay, and thought I'd pass it on to see how you'd spin it.

I also used your source, and found your information to be erroneous. Even with the latest offer from the company, the other fractionals are better-paid. I don't use the airline data, because it has no bearing on what we do. You are quick to throw that out there (twice), but refuse to consider NBAA wages as a comparison for what we do. Why is that?

Hey Grump...on further reflection it occured to me that one of your main points is that the pilot group has worked since 1998 without a raise.

If this is accurate, then would it matter when this was written? 4 years ago, 2 years ago, last week... the pay scale hasnt changed....so does it really matter when this was written?

The largest groups are the current year 5 and 6 guys, with over 900 pilots hired in 2000 and 2001. Three years ago, the majority of pilots would have been making less than $50k. Clear now?


To everyone else - I too feel that the police, firemen, and teachers are underpaid for the jobs they do. I did not start this particular comparison, but couldn't let it pass without a rebuttal.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The pilot group has gone Cat 5 on Boisture.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I don't use the airline data, because it has no bearing on what we do. You are quick to throw that out there (twice), but refuse to consider NBAA wages as a comparison for what we do. Why is that?

NBAA wages have as much bearing as airline wages do - very little - for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board. As I've said consistently throughout my posts, the best comparison for NetJets is our competitors - Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citation Shares.



Although you are quick to discount the bearing of airline data, I find it interesting that the airlines demise is cited as one of the primary motivators for making these outlandish wage demands in your own union research. Here's an excerpt from your union website:

Since 9/11 the work-related attitudes of small jet pilots, especially those in their 20s and 30s have evolved. The immediate cause has been the limitations on career progression due to contraction at major carriers. From 1996 though 2001, a key career goal among [then] newly hired pilots small jet pilots was move to larger equipment at a larger carrier. Many viewed their jobs flying small jets as a “stepping stone.” This mitigated the importance of substantial contract gains in their current job. Since 9/11, their focus has changed. Most young small jet pilots no longer expect to be hired at a major carrier – at least not in the foreseeable future. Consequently their both contract expectations and resolve have increased substantially.


​

As I said in another thread, I sympathize with the plight of all pilots in todays economy....its brutal out there. But trying to recreate the airline wage rates that you expected to get later in your career at your current employer simply isnt viable....and the resulting clash with management just magnifies the frustration.

The largest groups are the current year 5 and 6 guys, with over 900 pilots hired in 2000 and 2001. Three years ago, the majority of pilots would have been making less than $50k. Clear now?

Perfectly clear...that was exactly what I wanted to hear.

We all know that the pilot claims of operating the last 4 years without a raise is disingenuous at best. Every pilot out there has continued to receive raises every year as they gained seniority.

Evidently, according to your own union data, those raises have been sufficient to raise the average pilot wage by over $11,000 in just three years.

 

[Ultra Grump]

We all know that the pilot claims of operating the last 4 years without a raise is disingenuous at best. Every pilot out there has continued to receive raises every year as they gained seniority.

Evidently, according to your own union data, those raises have been sufficient to raise the average pilot wage by over $11,000 in just three years.

Cute, but wrong, "for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board."

 

[steel]

NBAA wages have as much bearing as airline wages do - very little - for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board. As I've said consistently throughout my posts, the best comparison for NetJets is our competitors - Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citation Shares.









Although you are quick to discount the bearing of airline data, I find it interesting that the airlines demise is cited as one of the primary motivators for making these outlandish wage demands in your own union research. Here's an excerpt from your union website:

Since 9/11 the work-related attitudes of small jet pilots, especially those in their 20s and 30s have evolved. The immediate cause has been the limitations on career progression due to contraction at major carriers. From 1996 though 2001, a key career goal among [then] newly hired pilots small jet pilots was move to larger equipment at a larger carrier. Many viewed their jobs flying small jets as a “stepping stone.” This mitigated the importance of substantial contract gains in their current job. Since 9/11, their focus has changed. Most young small jet pilots no longer expect to be hired at a major carrier – at least not in the foreseeable future. Consequently their both contract expectations and resolve have increased substantially.








​

As I said in another thread, I sympathize with the plight of all pilots in todays economy....its brutal out there. But trying to recreate the airline wage rates that you expected to get later in your career at your current employer simply isnt viable....and the resulting clash with management just magnifies the frustration.







Perfectly clear...that was exactly what I wanted to hear.

We all know that the pilot claims of operating the last 4 years without a raise is disingenuous at best. Every pilot out there has continued to receive raises every year as they gained seniority.

Evidently, according to your own union data, those raises have been sufficient to raise the average pilot wage by over $11,000 in just three years.

Family Guy, once again, you have no idea what is going on here, do you? And you should, being that you work for a union busting firm. Pitiful. Well, good luck with that.



Do you disagree that if one has to stick it out here for a while that he/she won't want to make the best of it? Do you think making the best of it, asking for a wage commensurate with one's responsibilities, is so bad?



Did you know we asked for wages already paid to pilots here at NetJets with the same benefits, if not better, flying comparable sized aircraft? Why are these wage demands EXORBITANT (thanks by the way) if management already pays the wages asked?



As to the raises....what did an 8 year pilot make in 1999 as opposed to what they make today? If you say the same, then you win the big prize.



As I have said before, rid the company of the union busting firms, rid moisture and shamtulli of their egos and this gets done. But until that happens, I’m satisfied with how things are going. After all, according to you, "I’m getting a raise every year anyway."

 

[Hogprint]

FG posted...again:

As I've said consistently throughout my posts, the best comparison for NetJets is our competitors - Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citation Shares

As we've pointed out consistently throughout our posts, you keep forgetting NJI, EJM and NJE.....

 

[FamilyGuy]

FG posted...again:



As we've pointed out consistently throughout our posts, you keep forgetting NJI, EJM and NJE.....

And you consistently forget to mention the 6-5 schedule at NJI, the larger aircraft, the higher productivity, the more flexible work rules, and the avoided cost of having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Cute, but wrong, "for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board."

Grump - dont skimp on the details now...

Humor me and tell me, in detail, where the logic is wrong -

again, in your own words (and the union's):

• Pilot median pay was under $50,000 three years ago
• Pilot median pay now is $60,984
• Pilot median pay has risen at least $11,000 in three years

So how did median pay increase at least $11,000 in three years if you are not getting raises from the company?

It's also worth mentioning that an $11,000 increase over three years equates to a 22% raise.....which far exceeds inflation over the same time frame. In fact, as was already noted in earlier posts, inflation totaled 9.08% (compounded) over the last 4 years....

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy, once again, you have no idea what is going on here, do you? And you should, being that you work for a union busting firm. Pitiful. Well, good luck with that.

This has already been covered, but you apparently are having trouble comprehending....I dont work for a "union busting firm". If it helps you sleep better at night to tell yourself that, then go ahead. The truth is that I've been here for years, and will be here long after this is resolved.

Do you disagree that if one has to stick it out here for a while that he/she won't want to make the best of it? Do you think making the best of it, asking for a wage commensurate with one's responsibilities, is so bad?

Again - invest some time and read the previous posts before you ask the same questions....I've already covered the topic of people being paid a wage commensurate with their responsibilities. Your union's demands of a 100% wage increase and a $200,000 signing bonus is not in line with that statement.

You want to bitch about the company not giving 'respectable offers', while you and your union are guilty of not making respectable requests. You need to stop aiming for the moon if you want to get a deal done in the next 5 years.

Did you know we asked for wages already paid to pilots here at NetJets with the same benefits, if not better, flying comparable sized aircraft? Why are these wage demands EXORBITANT (thanks by the way) if management already pays the wages asked?

Management has made it clear that if you want higher pay, then you have to give them flexibility elsewhere in the contract. You bitch about the higher pay at NJI, but conveniently overlook the 6-5 schedule, the more favorable work rules, the higher productivity, the larger aircraft, and the avoided cost of having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union.

As to the raises....what did an 8 year pilot make in 1999 as opposed to what they make today? If you say the same, then you win the big prize.

Again, this has been covered multiple times in the past - read the previous posts.

Both sides share an equal blame for there being no agreement right now.

If you were not unionized then you would have received raises every year, just like the people at NJI, NJE, EJM, and the flight center. You asked to be represented collectively, and thats what you have.

If pay is such a critical issue, then why did your union insist on renegotiating every clause in the contract - thereby wasting THREE years?

You could have had a raise last year when the company and union agreed on a tentative agreement, but you voted it down. You also changed leadership and locals....further delaying the process.

Moral of the story - dont bitch about how long its taking, when your side has a lot of control over the process as well.

As I have said before, rid the company of the union busting firms, rid moisture and shamtulli of their egos and this gets done. But until that happens, I’m satisfied with how things are going. After all, according to you, "I’m getting a raise every year anyway."

As I've said before, rid yourself of the union and the embedded EGO's of your 'leaders' and see how things work out. NJI seems to be a very content bunch.

Yes, you are getting a raise every year. That doesnt seem to stop you from falsely advertising to the public that you've been without a raise since 1998.

 

[gunfyter]

Grump - dont skimp on the details now...

Humor me and tell me, in detail, where the logic is wrong -

again, in your own words (and the union's):

• Pilot median pay was under $50,000 three years ago
• Pilot median pay now is $60,984
• Pilot median pay has risen at least $11,000 in three years

So how did median pay increase at least $11,000 in three years if you are not getting raises from the company?....

The problem is median pay is NOT 60.984

Its in the low 50's. ie just barely over 50. 3 yrs ago it was $47K.

About 1/2 of what it needs to be. 50%.

 

[steel]

FG, do you need a friend? You seem to be upset? Are you allergic to apostrophes? I'm not mad. If you think I was complaining, then I'm sorry because I wasn't. I was stating opionions and FACTS, unlike your DJing spinmaster writing.


You know we will win. I'm sorry you don't understand. Your blood pressure is getting high. This isn't healthy for you.

 

[GVFlyer]

Sorry, you really don't have a clue do you.

...The problem with that is-
2. Berkshire Hathaway is a privatly owned company.

Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly traded company. They issue BRK.A and BRK.B stock. I have BRK.B stock in my portfolio.

Think single carrier suit and that is the catch 22 of why the union will always be here.

If a single carrier suit were legal and possible, the Teamster's would have already filed it.

GV

 

[steel]

Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly traded company. They issue BRK.A and BRK.B stock. I have BRK.B stock in my portfolio.




If a single carrier suit were legal and possible, the Teamster's would have already filed it.

GV

Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

 

[Hawkered]

Well actually, you're both right...and you're both wrong.

IBT 1108 has the right to negotiate in its Collective Bargaining Agreement for all flying covered under the arrangement with the owners. The company can counter this request by paralleling all working conditions and make the operational argument for redundancies due to power outages, natural disasters, security breaches or terrorist attacks on US soil.

The truth is, the company might or might not win this argument. AMR lost its suit against the regional affiliates (Simmons, Executives, Wings West etc), for the purpose of collective bargaining under the American Eagle umbrella. Robert Crandall made it the habit of moving his own affiliates around to undercut each other in the same markets he controlled anyway, the courts didn't like that.

Any merger of lists would also end up falling under arbitration and would probably go in a ratio of date of hire...very rarely does the union stapler get used for this, as was the case with TWA/American.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Grump - dont skimp on the details now...

Why not? I asked you a question and got the same answer from you...

NBAA wages have as much bearing as airline wages do - very little - for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board.

Okay for you, but not for me, huh?

Humor me and tell me, in detail, where the logic is wrong -

So how did median pay increase at least $11,000 in three years if you are not getting raises from the company?

I never said that we weren't getting raises from the company. What I have tried to get through your thick skull several times now is that longevity raises do not compensate for COLA. A 5th year captain in 1998 was paid $60984. A 5th year captain today, 7 years later, is paid $60984. There is NO cost-of-living increase!

The reason the median pay has increased is because 3 years ago, there were 1265+ 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-year-pay guys, with many still on FO pay. They are all making captain's pay now, and 900+ of those are on the 5th year scale or above. The median would be even higher if there had been no hiring since - but that doesn't mean that the pay would have actually increased more, does it?

 

[gunfyter]

Grump

He does not understand that you can walk in and do his job tomorrow or with a couple of weeks training... but it would take years for him to be able to do your job ... IF EVER.

 

[GEXDriver]

[GVFlyer]- Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

GVFlyer is a former Gulfstream test pilot who went to work for one of Gulfstream's Fortune 100 customers as a senior captain. There, he earns a multiple of what the max pay at NJI is, so I don't think you're going to get him to come to work for you. I think he probably earns more in his spare time as a consultant for Gulfstream than you do in direct compensation at NJA.

 

[Hogprint]

And you consistently forget to mention the 6-5 schedule at NJI, the larger aircraft, the higher productivity, the more flexible work rules, and the avoided cost of having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union.

Higher productivity? Please explain. Just how do you define productive? This ought to be good!

Flexible work rules? Don't we all work under the same rules? Did the FAR's come out with Gulfstream specific rules?

 

[GVFlyer]

Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly traded company. They issue BRK.A and BRK.B stock. I have BRK.B stock in my portfolio.




If a single carrier suit were legal and possible, the Teamster's would have already filed it.

GV

Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

Thanks for your sentiment.

I don't work for NJI and never have. I can, however, recognize a premier organization where pilots and management work together to grow the company and take care of pilots. I was flying for Gulfstream Flight Test when the company was formed. Rick Schwartz and Peter Honchak did the initial interviews in offices in the Customer Lounge just accross the hall from Gulfstream Flight Ops while Joe Murphy shuttled back and forth between Savannah and Montvale to hammer out work rules, compensation, and home basing. The pilots they hired have worked hard for 10 years to make NJI a great place to work.

I flew with them in the 90's. We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots. Some of the pilots I had known previously from the Gulfstream community at Andrews AFB. All were dedicated professionals. I also know the Okatie leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with the company that they worked together to build. They don't need or want your union.

The initial contract forged by Gulfstream and EJI was not any kind of a lever against NJA as many here have suggested. The contract was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to have gotten along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. For brand protection, Gulfstream demanded that only internationally experienced Gulfstream captains with 2500 hours in type be hired for the new venture. Safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw and retain the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).


The existing relationship between NJI and Gulfstream is a close one. Raynor Reavis was VP for Gulfstream Shares, left Gulfstream to work with Keven Russell as Vice President for NetJets Sales, then returned to Gulfstream where he is presently Vice President Sales and Marketing.

My guess is that Berkshire Hathaway and General Dynamics / Gulfstream are in negotiations and will find it mutually beneficial for GD / Gulfstream to purchase NJI in order to complete their marketing line-up just as Citation, Raytheon, Bombardier and other airframers have done. Gulfstream presently offers charter through Gulfstream Charter Sales, lease through GFS, small through large cabin aircraft with the G100, G150, G200, G350, G450, G500, G550 aircraft lines, but has no fractional company.

GV







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