Can anyone understand "problems" with NWA's seniority list?

[General Lee]

Who said "fumes".....for that matter, who said that the arrival fuel was below any minimums or even usual A330 arrival fuel amounts? Please direct me to the line in the transcript. Otherwise, you're just manufacturing BS and can't be taken seriously.

Here you go:

it says ETA,
13 estimated time in route, 12 hours and 20
14 minutes.
15 So the previous letter said the
16 company is not allowed to operate the aircraft
17 in excess of 12 hours, yet they generate a
18 flight plan that is in excess of 12 hours. So
19 this flight plan is in violation of the FAA
20 regulations and it's in violation of the
21 Northwest collective bargaining agreement as
22 well.
23 There's a curious line down -- and
24 this is something that all airlines do. But
25 if you read down, you see ATC call sign with

2 asterisks on both sides and the line says,
3 "Released to CTS, subject to rerelease on to
4 ICN," which is Seoul, Enshon over -- so what
5 they do is they put a minimum load of fuel to
6 get to this long distance and you actually can
7 see that with some of the other statistics on
8 the fuel.
9 They arrive at Seoul with a bare
10 minimum of fuel. And they pointed out the
11 distance of 4,982 miles. Obviously the point
12 is that it is capable of making this distance.
13 Of course there's no cargo on the aircraft to
14 make that distance.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The DAL witness's opinion only. He even said he really has no idea. Here's what was said:

This is also the same witness that testified that NWA international 757's have 140 seats, "in order to allow them to fly that long leg", when in reality they have 160. Yep, powerful refutations of the abilities of the A330 there

He then said it was 160 seats. He corrected his mistake. I am glad you guys never had any mistakes....oh wait, you had plenty.

Q. Rather than take an invented flight​

5

plan, we pulled down a real flight plan for a

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6 ​

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Delta aircraft from yesterday.

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7 ​

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A. Yes. Captain A was able to go

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8 ​

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onto the internet yesterday for us and the

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9 ​

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flight plan that you see here was this flight

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10 ​

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operated yesterday from JFK to Tel Aviv. So

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11 ​

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there were Delta pilots operating this flight.

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12 ​

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This is a city that we serve, I'm

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13 ​

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reasonably sure it's on a daily basis, from
14 Kennedy to Tel Aviv.


Bye Bye--General Lee

​

 

[DTW320]

Here you go:

it says ETA,
13 estimated time in route, 12 hours and 20
14 minutes.
15 So the previous letter said the
16 company is not allowed to operate the aircraft
17 in excess of 12 hours, yet they generate a
18 flight plan that is in excess of 12 hours. So
19 this flight plan is in violation of the FAA
20 regulations and it's in violation of the
21 Northwest collective bargaining agreement as
22 well.
23 There's a curious line down -- and
24 this is something that all airlines do. But
25 if you read down, you see ATC call sign with

2 asterisks on both sides and the line says,
3 "Released to CTS, subject to rerelease on to
4 ICN," which is Seoul, Enshon over -- so what
5 they do is they put a minimum load of fuel to
6 get to this long distance and you actually can
7 see that with some of the other statistics on
8 the fuel.
9 They arrive at Seoul with a bare
10 minimum of fuel. And they pointed out the
11 distance of 4,982 miles. Obviously the point
12 is that it is capable of making this distance.
13 Of course there's no cargo on the aircraft to
14 make that distance.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I see you left out the part where he said he had no idea if the arrival fuel was typical for a A330 or not. How convenient. Good thing for you that I posted it earlier.

 

[DTW320]

He then said it was 160 seats. He corrected his mistake. I am glad you guys never had any mistakes....oh wait, you had plenty.

Actually, it was corrected FOR him....he then admitted he was wrong.

You're hanging your big Delta hat on this whole idea that it it ridiculous to use a city pair example purely because NWA doesn't have scheduled service on it. I fly a lot of the NBA charters (you're welcome for the industry leading product/obscene profits now being generated for DAL from the 10 year deal). 99% of those flights are city pairs that the A319 does not fly at NWA. According to you, my flight plans are make believe and total BS....Don't tell your Atlanta Hawks that.....they may get scared.

 

[General Lee]

Actually, it was corrected FOR him....he then admitted he was wrong.

You're hanging your big Delta hat on this whole idea that it it ridiculous to use a city pair example purely because NWA doesn't have scheduled service on it. I fly a lot of the NBA charters (you're welcome for the industry leading product/obscene profits now being generated for DAL from the 10 year deal). 99% of those flights are city pairs that the A319 does not fly at NWA. According to you, my flight plans are make believe and total BS....Don't tell your Atlanta Hawks that.....they may get scared.

Dude, it looks like you guys added "creative" evidence. You made up a flight that did not exist, and now you are trying to steer this somewhere else. This was not lost on the arbitrators. You can't just make something up while we bring in something credible. As far as what was said about the 757 and 140 seats, I think he knows it was a mistake. I don't know many 757s besides "Openskies" that fly with less than 160 or so seats. Regardless, your A330 flightplan to try to debunk our math was made up, to suit your needs, and we called you on it. Keep going round and round, WE CAUGHT YOU. As far as being an expert on the A330 and it's fuel burn, how would you know what the fuel burn from PDX to ICN would be? Your airline has NEVER DONE IT. You would never have an "Exact" number, it hasn't ever been done by you guys. How about a "wag"? We gave one, just like you guys would have. Inflight winds aren't always updated. You know that....... We just caught you in a fib, and that is what is important.

And, you asked me to find the quote after you questioned my credibility, and I found it. I am glad your A319s do charters, so do our 767ERs. We all understand those types of operations.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

. As far as being an expert on the A330 and it's fuel burn, how would you know what the fuel burn from PDX to ICN would be? Your airline has NEVER DONE IT. You would never have an "Exact" number, it hasn't ever been done by you guys. How about a "wag"? We gave one, just like you guys would have. Inflight winds aren't always updated.

I have an idea. Why don't you call NWA dispatch and ask if they can bring up a flightplan, with fuel burn, winds, the full monty, and we will see how long it takes them. Minutes. It's called a computer. Guess what, AA, UAL, DAl, AAA can all do the same thing. Hell, I can do it on my home computer.

And yes, the numbers would be EXACT for the current conditions, for any NWA aircraft. Stop making yourself look like such a tool.

 

[Muskycat]

Here you go:

it says ETA,
13 estimated time in route, 12 hours and 20
14 minutes.
15 So the previous letter said the
16 company is not allowed to operate the aircraft
17 in excess of 12 hours, yet they generate a
18 flight plan that is in excess of 12 hours. So
19 this flight plan is in violation of the FAA
20 regulations and it's in violation of the
21 Northwest collective bargaining agreement as
22 well.
23 There's a curious line down -- and
24 this is something that all airlines do. But
25 if you read down, you see ATC call sign with

2 asterisks on both sides and the line says,
3 "Released to CTS, subject to rerelease on to
4 ICN," which is Seoul, Enshon over -- so what
5 they do is they put a minimum load of fuel to
6 get to this long distance and you actually can
7 see that with some of the other statistics on
8 the fuel.
9 They arrive at Seoul with a bare
10 minimum of fuel. And they pointed out the
11 distance of 4,982 miles. Obviously the point
12 is that it is capable of making this distance.
13 Of course there's no cargo on the aircraft to
14 make that distance.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So much for "Super Premium Wide Body Airplane."

 

[DTW320]

Dude, it looks like you guys added "creative" evidence. You made up a flight that did not exist, and now you are trying to steer this somewhere else. This was not lost on the arbitrators. You can't just make something up while we bring in something credible. As far as what was said about the 757 and 140 seats, I think he knows it was a mistake. I don't know many 757s besides "Openskies" that fly with less than 160 or so seats. Regardless, your A330 flightplan to try to debunk our math was made up, to suit your needs, and we called you on it. Keep going round and round, WE CAUGHT YOU. As far as being an expert on the A330 and it's fuel burn, how would you know what the fuel burn from PDX to ICN would be? Your airline has NEVER DONE IT. You would never have an "Exact" number, it hasn't ever been done by you guys. How about a "wag"? We gave one, just like you guys would have. Inflight winds aren't always updated. You know that....... We just caught you in a fib, and that is what is important.

And, you asked me to find the quote after you questioned my credibility, and I found it. I am glad your A319s do charters, so do our 767ERs. We all understand those types of operations.


Bye Bye--General Lee

"Dude" ..Simply...Hilarious.

"Dude"....I'm sorry that you consider a computer generated flight plan "creative". Sad for you and DAL from a technology standpoint.

I'll take your response as an admission that DAL dispatch operates in the stone age and, apparently, couldn't produce an accurate flight plan unless a DAL aircraft had flown it before. Do you see how non-nonsensical your position is here? Redtail is correct: It's called a computer. You guys should look into them. Instead, not only can you NOT reserve a DAL jumpseat by computer, as we have for over a decade, apparently you can't produce a computer flight plan unless the route is currently in the timetable? Puhleeeeze.

As for our NBA charters, No, you don't understand those types of operations at all. There is no comparison to your 767 charters. Ask RA. He'll explain it to you since he was at NWA when we first got the NBA contract. Stop by Atlantic Aviation at ATL and check out one of the airplanes some time. You would be amazed.

 

[metrodriver]

@ General Lee: I have no idea what the max range of a DL 767 is, neither do I from a NW A330.
However, I do know that it does not take over 12 hrs to go from JFK to Tel Aviv, somewhere around 10 hrs maybe? NWA does plenty of 10 -11 hr flights with the A330. So at least here the performance is still similar. How many 12hr flights does DL do with the 767? Any?
I think you are comparing apples and oranges (or red apples and peaches). You take a real flight, NWA took a fake flight that was 2 hrs more.
Maybe at NWA 13000lbs is minimum landing fuel for dispatch, No idea. If DL's number is 20.000, maybe time to adjust that and make the airline more profitable. I fly a plane that has a similar range, but a higher fuel burn, the DC10 (replaced by the 767 or A330 at many airlines). Our min dispatch landing fuel is 18000, minimum landing is 10.000. And guess what? We always land at max landing weight with minimum planned landing fuel (18000+ required reserves). Most of our flights are landing weight limited, so no room for extra fuel for ...whatever...
Maybe NWA has taken this approach from their 747 cargo operation, something DL has less experience in.

Hey I'm just on the outside looking in. And I'm a quite satisfied frequent flyer on NWA, who's sad to see the merger and fearing the DL treatment showing up soon on the NWA flights. No more unlimited wine or beer in the back, less food, smaller seat pitch and smaller seats (on the 767 compared to the A330). My boss won't buy a business class ticket, so I have to suffer in cattle car on flights that stretch the endurance limits. I wish the frequent flyer courtesy upgrades were also applicable on international flights. Off course not. It's a fringe benefit on domestic only flights, DL and NWA. A freeloading jumpseater gets better treatment than his compadre who's got a paid-for ticket and is on his way to a 20 day rotation, or dead tired going home after 20 days of working.
If someone could just do something about those F*cking entertainment system boxes under the seats of the 330 that take up ALL the space under the seat in front of you, I would be even happier. I hate them things!!!! Can't stretch my legs on those 10 hr flights!

Whatever you guys do, please don't let the service degrade to the level of
US(eless) Airways. Their cattle treatment (can't call it service) is almost criminal (cruelty to animals, euhh passengers).

 

[General Lee]

I have an idea. Why don't you call NWA dispatch and ask if they can bring up a flightplan, with fuel burn, winds, the full monty, and we will see how long it takes them. Minutes. It's called a computer. Guess what, AA, UAL, DAl, AAA can all do the same thing. Hell, I can do it on my home computer.

And yes, the numbers would be EXACT for the current conditions, for any NWA aircraft. Stop making yourself look like such a tool.

And they did it on a route that you have never flown, trying to "show" what they wanted. Forgetting of course, that you have crew rest issues over 12 hour flights, and you simply don't do that route. It was ridiculous, and we called you out! We showed a real example, and you did not, trying to prove a point. Well, point taken! And don't try to change the subject.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

@ General Lee: I have no idea what the max range of a DL 767 is, neither do I from a NW A330.
However, I do know that it does not take over 12 hrs to go from JFK to Tel Aviv, somewhere around 10 hrs maybe? NWA does plenty of 10 -11 hr flights with the A330. So at least here the performance is still similar. How many 12hr flights does DL do with the 767? Any?
I think you are comparing apples and oranges (or red apples and peaches). You take a real flight, NWA took a fake flight that was 2 hrs more.
Maybe at NWA 13000lbs is minimum landing fuel for dispatch, No idea. If DL's number is 20.000, maybe time to adjust that and make the airline more profitable. I fly a plane that has a similar range, but a higher fuel burn, the DC10 (replaced by the 767 or A330 at many airlines). Our min dispatch landing fuel is 18000, minimum landing is 10.000. And guess what? We always land at max landing weight with minimum planned landing fuel (18000+ required reserves). Most of our flights are landing weight limited, so no room for extra fuel for ...whatever...
Maybe NWA has taken this approach from their 747 cargo operation, something DL has less experience in.

Hey I'm just on the outside looking in. And I'm a quite satisfied frequent flyer on NWA, who's sad to see the merger and fearing the DL treatment showing up soon on the NWA flights. No more unlimited wine or beer in the back, less food, smaller seat pitch and smaller seats (on the 767 compared to the A330). My boss won't buy a business class ticket, so I have to suffer in cattle car on flights that stretch the endurance limits. I wish the frequent flyer courtesy upgrades were also applicable on international flights. Off course not. It's a fringe benefit on domestic only flights, DL and NWA. A freeloading jumpseater gets better treatment than his compadre who's got a paid-for ticket and is on his way to a 20 day rotation, or dead tired going home after 20 days of working.
If someone could just do something about those F*cking entertainment system boxes under the seats of the 330 that take up ALL the space under the seat in front of you, I would be even happier. I hate them things!!!! Can't stretch my legs on those 10 hr flights!

Whatever you guys do, please don't let the service degrade to the level of
US(eless) Airways. Their cattle treatment (can't call it service) is almost criminal (cruelty to animals, euhh passengers).

It takes 10 1/2 hours from JFK to TLV. What about the return? Over 12 hours. We stated that in the testimony, that we do over 12 coming back to JFK. We have 4 pilots on those flights, because anything over 12 hours means 2 Captains and 2 FOs. Tailwinds prevail going East, right? Also, during the next few months we have added an extra Captain on the ATL to Lagos nonstop, thanks to Winter headwinds on the return to ATL. Delta and DALPA are really good at following the rules when it comes to FARs etc. Looks like NWA and their flight planners are NOT. I just want to know if they can work up a flight plan for me on the A330 from Perth to Sao Paulo? Let's see if it works? Just me and DTW320, and NWAREDTAIL as the stew. Good times.


As far as the cattlecar mentality you were talking about, that is somewhat talked about in our testimony. NWA likes to say that some of their A330s carry more total passengers compared to our 767-400s, yet we have more first class (business Elite we call it) available. If they want to jam more coach passengers back there, great. We offer more upgrades and better yeild overall with the business travellers. It's all about the same, but our planes paid more before the merger. Our 757 jobs paid about the same as their A330 back then too. But since the date of corporate closing, those guys got nice raises, and now want a lot more. The USAir East guys wanted a lot of the same.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

As far as the cattlecar mentality you were talking about, that is somewhat talked about in our testimony. NWA likes to say that some of their A330s carry more total passengers compared to our 767-400s, yet we have more first class (business Elite we call it) available. If they want to jam more coach passengers back there, great. We offer more upgrades and better yeild overall with the business travellers. It's all about the same, but our planes paid more before the merger. Our 757 jobs paid about the same as their A330 back then too. But since the date of corporate closing, those guys got nice raises, and now want a lot more. The USAir East guys wanted a lot of the same.

HaHaHaHaHa!!! You are simply hilarious. Here's some "inconvenient truths" for ya:

DAL 767-400 - seating = 36/249
NWA A330 - seating = 34/264

DAL 767-400 seat width/pitch:
First Class = 18.5"/39" Coach = 17-18"/31-33"

NWA A330 seat width/pitch:
First Class = 20.25"/60" Coach = 17.5"/31-33"

Looks like NWA "cattle" have the same room as DAL in coach and SIGNIFICANTLY MORE in First/Biz (extra 21" of pitch).

I've ridden on your 767-400 and although a very nice plane overall, it defines the phrase "cattlecar" in Biz class.

 

[General Lee]

HaHaHaHaHa!!! You are simply hilarious. Here's some "inconvenient truths" for ya:

DAL 767-400 - seating = 36/249
NWA A330 - seating = 34/264

DAL 767-400 seat width/pitch:
First Class = 18.5"/39" Coach = 17-18"/31-33"

NWA A330 seat width/pitch:
First Class = 20.25"/60" Coach = 17.5"/31-33"

Looks like NWA "cattle" have the same room as DAL in coach and SIGNIFICANTLY MORE in First/Biz (extra 21" of pitch).

I've ridden on your 767-400 and although a very nice plane overall, it defines the phrase "cattlecar" in Biz class.

So, you are comparing the A330-200 to the 76ER on here, right? Your A330-300 has all the seats, right? So, you finally are admitting that the 764 and the A333 are alike, not along with the A332 that you also like to include... Well aint that grand? Looks like the 76ER and the A332 should be grouped together. Call Bloch, someone has to tell him!!! How many of those A333s do you have anyway? We now have an agreement!!!

Also, did you know that half of our 764s are in the shop now getting new full sleeper seats in Biz Elite? By next Summer all of them will have it, including the crew rest seat that is full sleeper. Nice, eh? The reason you had a cattle car experience before on them is because initially they were primarily used on Hawaii flights, and those often don't get the best seats since those flights are full of frequent fliers that don't pay for the flights. I guess we will be putting sleeper seats or at least crew rest facilities in your A332s also if they are going to fly over 12 hours with us. That is something you currently do not have. You're welcome. Another good rule from our side passed onto yours.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[metrodriver]

DL 767-300: 17-18 / 31-32.
I have never been on a DL767-400, always a 300 going across the pond. I'm pretty sure that the rest facilities on this plane are nothing more than a business class seat. I came out of Chennai with DL (business) a few years back and that were definately not sleeper seats.

 

[General Lee]

DL 767-300: 17-18 / 31-32.
I have never been on a DL767-400, always a 300 going across the pond. I'm pretty sure that the rest facilities on this plane are nothing more than a business class seat. I came out of Chennai with DL (business) a few years back and that were definately not sleeper seats.

7 of our 767-300ERs now have a pill box that looks like a large closet inbetween rows 1 and 2 in the first class section. Inside there are 2 bunks seperated by a small wall, for lie flat sleeping. Those planes are used on any flight over 12 hours. The 764s are getting lie flat seats for all business Elite seats by this next Summer, including the crew rest. That is a big improvement.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[metrodriver]

That is a big improvement.

I would think so. I can only dream of landing a job someday where there a rest facilities on board. That means an aircraft where the "additional crewmember" (F/E) has been replaced by tv screens. Our flight time limit is 12 hrs a day, unlimited duty. And if part of the flight is empty (tail-end ferry), part 91 rules apply which have no flight time limit. So yes, 15 hrs flying, 24 hr duty day shows up in my logbook somewhere. No relief pilot either. Rest? Scan the overhead for a while when things are quiet. Just make sure the other guy doesn't do the same thing. No upperdeck seats like on a 747 to lay down during a turn around. And guess what? It's all perfectly legal

 

[DTW320]

So, you are comparing the A330-200 to the 76ER on here, right?Ummm. No....IF you could READ you'd see that I was comparing the A330 to the 767-400. Your A330-300 has all the seats, right?All the seats? You mean the ones that are a lot bigger than you "765" seats?Um, yeah, it has all the seats that are installed. So, you finally are admitting that the 764 and the A333 are alike, not along with the A332 that you also like to include... Well aint that grand?Um. I'm "admitting", as my post indicates, that NWA 330's have more AND bigger seats than the "765" Looks like the 76ER and the A332 should be grouped together. Huh? Where in my post does it mention the ER?Call Bloch, someone has to tell him!!! How many of those A333s do you have anyway? 21 We now have an agreement!!!

Are you not taking your meds again?

 

[clippyrip]

So, you finally are admitting that the 764 and the A333 are alike, not along with the A332 that you also like to include... Well aint that grand? Looks like the 76ER and the A332 should be grouped together. !

You are reaching now.

Fact: The 330 is bigger.
Get over it.

REMINDER:
Repeating yourself over and over does not make you right.

 

[General Lee]

You are reaching now. Fact: The 330 is bigger.
Get over it.

REMINDER:
Repeating yourself over and over does not make you right.

Which version? Is the A332 bigger than the 764? I don't think so. The A332 is compared to the 767-300ER, and the A333 is compared to the 764. But hey, thanks to us, you guys got your pay raised on the A330 to equal the 764. Before it paid less than our 757s. Keep repeating that in your head, along with thank you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

You can thank us for your pay raise. If we did not elect to merge with you, then you would have no raise. Plus it was NWA money that paid for it.

FACT: 330 is bigger.