Can anyone understand "problems" with NWA's seniority list?

[General Lee]

Who said "fumes".....for that matter, who said that the arrival fuel was below any minimums or even usual A330 arrival fuel amounts? Please direct me to the line in the transcript. Otherwise, you're just manufacturing BS and can't be taken seriously.

Here you go:

it says ETA,
13 estimated time in route, 12 hours and 20
14 minutes.
15 So the previous letter said the
16 company is not allowed to operate the aircraft
17 in excess of 12 hours, yet they generate a
18 flight plan that is in excess of 12 hours. So
19 this flight plan is in violation of the FAA
20 regulations and it's in violation of the
21 Northwest collective bargaining agreement as
22 well.
23 There's a curious line down -- and
24 this is something that all airlines do. But
25 if you read down, you see ATC call sign with

2 asterisks on both sides and the line says,
3 "Released to CTS, subject to rerelease on to
4 ICN," which is Seoul, Enshon over -- so what
5 they do is they put a minimum load of fuel to
6 get to this long distance and you actually can
7 see that with some of the other statistics on
8 the fuel.
9 They arrive at Seoul with a bare
10 minimum of fuel. And they pointed out the
11 distance of 4,982 miles. Obviously the point
12 is that it is capable of making this distance.
13 Of course there's no cargo on the aircraft to
14 make that distance.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The DAL witness's opinion only. He even said he really has no idea. Here's what was said:

This is also the same witness that testified that NWA international 757's have 140 seats, "in order to allow them to fly that long leg", when in reality they have 160. Yep, powerful refutations of the abilities of the A330 there

He then said it was 160 seats. He corrected his mistake. I am glad you guys never had any mistakes....oh wait, you had plenty.

Q. Rather than take an invented flight​

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plan, we pulled down a real flight plan for a

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Delta aircraft from yesterday.

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A. Yes. Captain A was able to go

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onto the internet yesterday for us and the

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flight plan that you see here was this flight

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operated yesterday from JFK to Tel Aviv. So

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there were Delta pilots operating this flight.

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This is a city that we serve, I'm

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reasonably sure it's on a daily basis, from
14 Kennedy to Tel Aviv.


Bye Bye--General Lee

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[DTW320]

Here you go:

it says ETA,
13 estimated time in route, 12 hours and 20
14 minutes.
15 So the previous letter said the
16 company is not allowed to operate the aircraft
17 in excess of 12 hours, yet they generate a
18 flight plan that is in excess of 12 hours. So
19 this flight plan is in violation of the FAA
20 regulations and it's in violation of the
21 Northwest collective bargaining agreement as
22 well.
23 There's a curious line down -- and
24 this is something that all airlines do. But
25 if you read down, you see ATC call sign with

2 asterisks on both sides and the line says,
3 "Released to CTS, subject to rerelease on to
4 ICN," which is Seoul, Enshon over -- so what
5 they do is they put a minimum load of fuel to
6 get to this long distance and you actually can
7 see that with some of the other statistics on
8 the fuel.
9 They arrive at Seoul with a bare
10 minimum of fuel. And they pointed out the
11 distance of 4,982 miles. Obviously the point
12 is that it is capable of making this distance.
13 Of course there's no cargo on the aircraft to
14 make that distance.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I see you left out the part where he said he had no idea if the arrival fuel was typical for a A330 or not. How convenient. Good thing for you that I posted it earlier.

 

[DTW320]

He then said it was 160 seats. He corrected his mistake. I am glad you guys never had any mistakes....oh wait, you had plenty.

Actually, it was corrected FOR him....he then admitted he was wrong.

You're hanging your big Delta hat on this whole idea that it it ridiculous to use a city pair example purely because NWA doesn't have scheduled service on it. I fly a lot of the NBA charters (you're welcome for the industry leading product/obscene profits now being generated for DAL from the 10 year deal). 99% of those flights are city pairs that the A319 does not fly at NWA. According to you, my flight plans are make believe and total BS....Don't tell your Atlanta Hawks that.....they may get scared.

 

[General Lee]

Actually, it was corrected FOR him....he then admitted he was wrong.

You're hanging your big Delta hat on this whole idea that it it ridiculous to use a city pair example purely because NWA doesn't have scheduled service on it. I fly a lot of the NBA charters (you're welcome for the industry leading product/obscene profits now being generated for DAL from the 10 year deal). 99% of those flights are city pairs that the A319 does not fly at NWA. According to you, my flight plans are make believe and total BS....Don't tell your Atlanta Hawks that.....they may get scared.

Dude, it looks like you guys added "creative" evidence. You made up a flight that did not exist, and now you are trying to steer this somewhere else. This was not lost on the arbitrators. You can't just make something up while we bring in something credible. As far as what was said about the 757 and 140 seats, I think he knows it was a mistake. I don't know many 757s besides "Openskies" that fly with less than 160 or so seats. Regardless, your A330 flightplan to try to debunk our math was made up, to suit your needs, and we called you on it. Keep going round and round, WE CAUGHT YOU. As far as being an expert on the A330 and it's fuel burn, how would you know what the fuel burn from PDX to ICN would be? Your airline has NEVER DONE IT. You would never have an "Exact" number, it hasn't ever been done by you guys. How about a "wag"? We gave one, just like you guys would have. Inflight winds aren't always updated. You know that....... We just caught you in a fib, and that is what is important.

And, you asked me to find the quote after you questioned my credibility, and I found it. I am glad your A319s do charters, so do our 767ERs. We all understand those types of operations.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

. As far as being an expert on the A330 and it's fuel burn, how would you know what the fuel burn from PDX to ICN would be? Your airline has NEVER DONE IT. You would never have an "Exact" number, it hasn't ever been done by you guys. How about a "wag"? We gave one, just like you guys would have. Inflight winds aren't always updated.

I have an idea. Why don't you call NWA dispatch and ask if they can bring up a flightplan, with fuel burn, winds, the full monty, and we will see how long it takes them. Minutes. It's called a computer. Guess what, AA, UAL, DAl, AAA can all do the same thing. Hell, I can do it on my home computer.

And yes, the numbers would be EXACT for the current conditions, for any NWA aircraft. Stop making yourself look like such a tool.

 

[Muskycat]

Here you go:

it says ETA,
13 estimated time in route, 12 hours and 20
14 minutes.
15 So the previous letter said the
16 company is not allowed to operate the aircraft
17 in excess of 12 hours, yet they generate a
18 flight plan that is in excess of 12 hours. So
19 this flight plan is in violation of the FAA
20 regulations and it's in violation of the
21 Northwest collective bargaining agreement as
22 well.
23 There's a curious line down -- and
24 this is something that all airlines do. But
25 if you read down, you see ATC call sign with

2 asterisks on both sides and the line says,
3 "Released to CTS, subject to rerelease on to
4 ICN," which is Seoul, Enshon over -- so what
5 they do is they put a minimum load of fuel to
6 get to this long distance and you actually can
7 see that with some of the other statistics on
8 the fuel.
9 They arrive at Seoul with a bare
10 minimum of fuel. And they pointed out the
11 distance of 4,982 miles. Obviously the point
12 is that it is capable of making this distance.
13 Of course there's no cargo on the aircraft to
14 make that distance.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So much for "Super Premium Wide Body Airplane."

 

[DTW320]

Dude, it looks like you guys added "creative" evidence. You made up a flight that did not exist, and now you are trying to steer this somewhere else. This was not lost on the arbitrators. You can't just make something up while we bring in something credible. As far as what was said about the 757 and 140 seats, I think he knows it was a mistake. I don't know many 757s besides "Openskies" that fly with less than 160 or so seats. Regardless, your A330 flightplan to try to debunk our math was made up, to suit your needs, and we called you on it. Keep going round and round, WE CAUGHT YOU. As far as being an expert on the A330 and it's fuel burn, how would you know what the fuel burn from PDX to ICN would be? Your airline has NEVER DONE IT. You would never have an "Exact" number, it hasn't ever been done by you guys. How about a "wag"? We gave one, just like you guys would have. Inflight winds aren't always updated. You know that....... We just caught you in a fib, and that is what is important.

And, you asked me to find the quote after you questioned my credibility, and I found it. I am glad your A319s do charters, so do our 767ERs. We all understand those types of operations.


Bye Bye--General Lee

"Dude" ..Simply...Hilarious.

"Dude"....I'm sorry that you consider a computer generated flight plan "creative". Sad for you and DAL from a technology standpoint.

I'll take your response as an admission that DAL dispatch operates in the stone age and, apparently, couldn't produce an accurate flight plan unless a DAL aircraft had flown it before. Do you see how non-nonsensical your position is here? Redtail is correct: It's called a computer. You guys should look into them. Instead, not only can you NOT reserve a DAL jumpseat by computer, as we have for over a decade, apparently you can't produce a computer flight plan unless the route is currently in the timetable? Puhleeeeze.

As for our NBA charters, No, you don't understand those types of operations at all. There is no comparison to your 767 charters. Ask RA. He'll explain it to you since he was at NWA when we first got the NBA contract. Stop by Atlantic Aviation at ATL and check out one of the airplanes some time. You would be amazed.

 

[metrodriver]

@ General Lee: I have no idea what the max range of a DL 767 is, neither do I from a NW A330.
However, I do know that it does not take over 12 hrs to go from JFK to Tel Aviv, somewhere around 10 hrs maybe? NWA does plenty of 10 -11 hr flights with the A330. So at least here the performance is still similar. How many 12hr flights does DL do with the 767? Any?
I think you are comparing apples and oranges (or red apples and peaches). You take a real flight, NWA took a fake flight that was 2 hrs more.
Maybe at NWA 13000lbs is minimum landing fuel for dispatch, No idea. If DL's number is 20.000, maybe time to adjust that and make the airline more profitable. I fly a plane that has a similar range, but a higher fuel burn, the DC10 (replaced by the 767 or A330 at many airlines). Our min dispatch landing fuel is 18000, minimum landing is 10.000. And guess what? We always land at max landing weight with minimum planned landing fuel (18000+ required reserves). Most of our flights are landing weight limited, so no room for extra fuel for ...whatever...
Maybe NWA has taken this approach from their 747 cargo operation, something DL has less experience in.

Hey I'm just on the outside looking in. And I'm a quite satisfied frequent flyer on NWA, who's sad to see the merger and fearing the DL treatment showing up soon on the NWA flights. No more unlimited wine or beer in the back, less food, smaller seat pitch and smaller seats (on the 767 compared to the A330). My boss won't buy a business class ticket, so I have to suffer in cattle car on flights that stretch the endurance limits. I wish the frequent flyer courtesy upgrades were also applicable on international flights. Off course not. It's a fringe benefit on domestic only flights, DL and NWA. A freeloading jumpseater gets better treatment than his compadre who's got a paid-for ticket and is on his way to a 20 day rotation, or dead tired going home after 20 days of working.
If someone could just do something about those F*cking entertainment system boxes under the seats of the 330 that take up ALL the space under the seat in front of you, I would be even happier. I hate them things!!!! Can't stretch my legs on those 10 hr flights!

Whatever you guys do, please don't let the service degrade to the level of
US(eless) Airways. Their cattle treatment (can't call it service) is almost criminal (cruelty to animals, euhh passengers).

 

[General Lee]

I have an idea. Why don't you call NWA dispatch and ask if they can bring up a flightplan, with fuel burn, winds, the full monty, and we will see how long it takes them. Minutes. It's called a computer. Guess what, AA, UAL, DAl, AAA can all do the same thing. Hell, I can do it on my home computer.

And yes, the numbers would be EXACT for the current conditions, for any NWA aircraft. Stop making yourself look like such a tool.

And they did it on a route that you have never flown, trying to "show" what they wanted. Forgetting of course, that you have crew rest issues over 12 hour flights, and you simply don't do that route. It was ridiculous, and we called you out! We showed a real example, and you did not, trying to prove a point. Well, point taken! And don't try to change the subject.


Bye Bye--General Lee