Can anyone understand "problems" with NWA's seniority list?

[nwaredtail]

Roberts also gave DOH...imagine that.

Nu

But that would go against Einstein's argument. I love how he's talking about a 7 to 5 ratio now with pullouts. Wouldn't this be less than what DAL asked for, which is the only "fair and rational" way to do an award.

Let the backpeddling begin.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your Dynamic list has never been done before, and attrition hasn't been used either. I bet Bloch may use the plug and play method though, but not to the extent that you are counting on. It will be a 7 to 5 ratio, with some modest plug and play. That'll be it. The arbitrators still have to follow the ALPA merger policies, with modest tweaking, which will happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I think that is very close to what the outcome will be. I am still hoping for relative seniority by equipment to preserve the current status quo, rather than set off an avalanche of bidding that will result from pilots being caught out of position for their seniority.

It would seem Delta has the same concern, hence the Advanced Entitlement which nearly isn't.

 

[~~~^~~~]

"Pull out, Plug in" is a "shocker"


OK forget that pomposity written on the previous page. Copyright terms to Fins:

Shocker: (noun) A SLI method by which on pilot is pulled out of the pink and two pilots are put in the stink.

Stinky Shocker: (noun) A plug in pilot putting two in a hole designed for one.

 

[Fly4hire]

I think that is very close to what the outcome will be. I am still hoping for relative seniority by equipment to preserve the current status quo, rather than set off an avalanche of bidding that will result from pilots being caught out of position for their seniority.

It would seem Delta has the same concern, hence the Advanced Entitlement which nearly isn't.

:bomb: Prediction:

List will be segmented into 2 portions - pre and post 9/11 hires. Post 9/11 will be DOH, no bump no flush for everyone, pre 9/11 hires straight ratio (which will be 1:1 at that point) with dynamic overlay, or fences to account for each sides asymmetric attrition. Most (~ 9500 out of ~1200) of the more senior guys on either side will be able to live with it. RA will not reject the arbitrators decision.

Someone in the DOH group will immediately file a DFR suit, neither Prater, Moak, or RA will or anyone else will support it, and it will run out of cash/steam and go nowhere, and they still do better by their sheer numbers than the post 9/11 NWA hires.

The rest of us will have to put up for the next 10 years of listening to P/O'd junior DAL pilots 9 years junior to the Capt. bitching about how they should of been in the left seat and they were ripped off. :crying:

30 plus DC9's will return to the line after SLI ink is dry to be based on the shuttle and out of ATL, and Capt slots will continue to go way out of seniority as no one wants to fly "old and cold" and those flying them will enjoy the hell out of them and the $143/hr they pay. Everyone else gets to stay in their happy. The new hires won't know the difference. :beer:

 

[DAL737FO]

Prediction:

List will be segmented into 2 portions - pre and post 9/11 hires. Post 9/11 will be DOH, no bump no flush, pre 9/11 hires straight ratio (which will be 1:1 at that point) with dynamic overlay, or fences to account for each sides asymmetric attrition.quote]


I doubt that will be the outcome. When it boils down to it for SLI purposes 911 has nothing to do with it. A number is a number. We have hired 10% of our seniority list since 911. You are using an emotional issue, 911 and furlough, for justification of putting more pilots below you. Here are my predictions:

list will be broken down by into four categories:

widebody Capt
narrowbody Capt
widebody FO
narrowbody FO

list will be integrated by a ratio within each grouping. NWA will get some credit for attrition but it will be minimal per the transcripts (between 100-173 slots).

Final prediction: other than the number 1 guy everyone will be pissed off for some reason.

 

[michael707767]

But that would go against Einstein's argument. I love how he's talking about a 7 to 5 ratio now with pullouts. Wouldn't this be less than what DAL asked for, which is the only "fair and rational" way to do an award.

yes it is less than what Delta asked for. A little bit.

Much less than straight relative position would be a huge loss for the Delta pilots.

That said, I agree with Gen Lee. I think it will be 7-5 top to bottom with some limited allotment for NWA retirements. But I don't think that allotment will alter anyone much more than a percent or two from that 7-5 ratio.

 

[nwaredtail]

yes it is less than what Delta asked for. A little bit.

Much less than straight relative position would be a huge loss for the Delta pilots.

That said, I agree with Gen Lee. I think it will be 7-5 top to bottom with some limited allotment for NWA retirements. But I don't think that allotment will alter anyone much more than a percent or two from that 7-5 ratio.

But how can that be. DALPA OBVIOUSLY won every argument and the NWA case is sooooooo weak? What about all the growth opportunities for the NWA guys. Oh, that's right, DAL will be REDUCING capacity. (Damn, can't believe the NWA guys didn't fall for that)

All ribing aside, I would be prepared for a bit more than 1-2%. My $ is ratio top part, DOH middle, hybrid bottom, General Lee fired.

 

[nwaredtail]

widebody Capt
narrowbody Capt
widebody FO
narrowbody FO

list will be integrated by a ratio within each grouping. NWA will get some credit for attrition but it will be minimal per the transcripts (between 100-173 slots).

I bet it's way more than that. Over 500 easy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

My $ is ratio top part, DOH middle, hybrid bottom, General Lee fired.

That's funny stuff, don't care who you are.

 

[~~~^~~~]

list will be integrated by a ratio within each grouping. NWA will get some credit for attrition but it will be minimal per the transcripts (between 100-173 slots).

173 slots equals 346 position plus the thousands below them. That is not "minimal." It potentially puts Delta pilots in position to take the DC9 furloughs, if that happens.

Maybe a compelling argument can be made that the furlough of Delta pilots as a result of the DC9 & 747-2 fleet plan is "merger" related. After all, how else would a Delta pilot be put on the street as a result of a DC9 retirement?

Unless the Company breaks the flow down, at least it would take 3 training events to get line holding international wide body pilots to the street. (You NWA guys do realize that is what your DOH proposal would mean if NWA's fleet plan held, don't you? Seriously?)

 

[clippyrip]

It potentially puts Delta pilots in position to take the DC9 furloughs, if that happens.

You mean the we over expanded in Europe furloughs.

 

[Fly4hire]

Actually I believe the arbitrators said something to the effect that all career expectations were off post 9/11, therefore those hired after 9/11 do not have the same expectations as those in the game before hand.

Regardless of how the list is constructed, I think it doubtful the arbitrators will agree to put 2007 DAL hires ahead of 1998 NWA hires, just because of the equipment they are on.

No bump/flush together with dynamic or freezes keeps everyone where they are, so there is no aircraft position windfall and minimizes training costs and waterfalls.

Treating different portions of the list differently allows them to reconcile the asymmetries in seniority that occur at one end or the other in other scenarios.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You mean the we over expanded in Europe furloughs.

Thus far, the re-deployment of those airplanes on longer routes means that staffing will remain static. On block hour basis, the change should be neutral. Delta's current Advance Entitlement has ~220 new 767 ER positions reflecting this re-allocation.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No bump/flush together with dynamic or freezes keeps everyone where they are, so there is no aircraft position windfall and minimizes training costs and waterfalls.

Treating different portions of the list differently allows them to reconcile the asymmetries in seniority that occur at one end or the other in other scenarios.

Perhaps.... Nobody wants to take anything from someone who survived the pain of furlough, but, the result is still one heck of a windfall

Using your example of a 1998 hire PRE / POST merger:

• Three to four years of longevity / Ten years longevity
• Line holding DC9B / Line holding MD88 Capt, or International FO
• Current Pay / ~ 40% raise - more with a position change
• Nothing / Equity Pay Out

Delta 2007 hire:

• Line holder on widebody international / displacement on list until eventual displacement off equipment as fleets shift
• Status Quo / 5% raise
• Relatively Safe at 10% on list / Furlough fodder
• Nothing / Equity Pay Out

Just observing these results are not status quo. Your idea of fences help, but there are limitations on what can be achieved under no bump / flush unless you furlough out of seniority.

 

[General Lee]

But that would go against Einstein's argument. I love how he's talking about a 7 to 5 ratio now with pullouts. Wouldn't this be less than what DAL asked for, which is the only "fair and rational" way to do an award.

Let the backpeddling begin.

I hope we get what we asked for initially. The excessive whining on your side though may have swayed Bloch to give you a nibble. DOH and full dynamic lists just sound crazy. Just giving a prediction, which I actually hope does not come true. We'll see. Say hello to all of your crashpad mates for me!

Bye Bye--General Lee