AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

[Swaayze]

Jeeeez, why so balled up about the U guys who earned pensions in the neighborhood of 6 figures actually getting a small portion of the money they were promised? What does that have to do with any of this merger stuff?

All y'all (that's plural Texan) just get over it. The arbitrator will figure it out. Everyone will be pissed. The furloughees will be at the bottom, and it won't matter much anyway because age 65 is coming and recalls won't happen for many more years.

Cheery enough for ya? Unfortunately I'm just trying to be realistic.

 

[aa73]

I think the America West pilots and the US Air pilots are both a great bunch.
I wish them well and I hope things will work out for both groups. At least they are both alpa and I hope what happend to the TWA folks will not happen during this merger. TWA pilots got really screwed by AA.

Marty

Apples to oranges.... While I agree that a significant number of TWA pilots got the shaft, you must realize that the AA/TWA deal was an asset acquisition (more like a debt acquisition) - and the AWA/USAir deal is a merger between both airlines. Even ALPA has different standards of integration for the two - one is called Merger policy, and the other is Fragmentation policy. If AA/TWA would have been a true merger, I suspect the APA would have given a straight ratio integration. But it wasn't.

I'd be careful depending on ALPA anyways - if you want historical precedent regarding asset acquisitions between two ALPA carriers, look no further than DAL/PanAm in '91, and look at what happened to the Pan Am pilots.

 

[aa73]

Before some TWA pilots jump down my throat, my above post is only meant to point out the fact that even between two ALPA carriers, an asset acquisition type deal (fragmentation policy) doesn't necessarily require that the pilots of the acquired carrier gain employment at the acquiring carrier - even though in past deals, the acquiring airlines have almost always taken at least some of the pilots. It is my understanding that APA used the historical precedent of the DAL/PanAm deal and implemented a lot of similar concepts. However, DAL only took some of the Pan Am pilots, whereas AA took the whole TWA pilot group.

OK - enough details. Bottom line- I hope you AWA/US guys and gals keep it professional, and by NO MEANS should you engage in the name calling and put downs the APA made famous during our deal. Immature to say the least - I did a lot of apologizing on behalf of my own union when I was based in STL.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

....and by NO MEANS should you engage in the name calling and put downs the APA made famous during our deal...

You wouldn't happen to have that list of put downs handy would you? I might need the wisdom of the APA's experienced workforce to help out my vocabulary.

I am, afterall, just a caveman.

 

[FR8mastr]

please don't count the e170 as growth. We all know that MDA was a commuter. No offense to the MDA pilots but that's what it was.
.

MDA a commuter? you need a reality check and quick! the AAA mec convinced themselves of that thinking " its a small airplane and I'm a superior large airplane flyer so the MDA thing is of no concern to me"
This "commuter" is directly replacing DC-9, F-100, F-28, 737-200. and BA 146 flying that was and still is ML flying. I sure hope I am just not getting the point you are trying to make. Because if you really believe what I quoted above, we will never get anything like a profession back.

 

[A350]

First, MDA was Mainline. If you don't like it, that is your right, but MDA was mainline on the mainline certificate. Those pilots were recalled to mainline, but under a C scale contract. You sure consider the 190 mainline, don't you? That is like calling the 757 a commuter craft and the 767 a mainline craft.

Further, if you think taking airplanes a few here and there makes you a growth junkie, that is your right.

BTW, no U pilot receives a $48,000 pension.....it is more like $28,000. And that is 6 figures less than it should have been. And further, what the hell does that have to do with the merger?

Better opt to get along with each other. Unfortunately, the last guy at Indy Air and the first guy are all in the same boat. No matter what your number ends up being, better bury the hatchet and get on with putting out a quality product. Otherwise, it won't matter whether you are a Captain, FO, junior or senior.

A350

 

[aa73]

You wouldn't happen to have that list of put downs handy would you? I might need the wisdom of the APA's experienced workforce to help out my vocabulary.

I am, afterall, just a caveman.

Kmart pilots, Hot dog vendors, to name a few. The arrogance was truly amazing.

 

[maru657]

AWA is still around because John McCain sold his soul for home town jobs. I suspect part of the deal with elements of the majority party was keeping US Air from total failure with the resultant thousands of angry voters on the street. That is part of what cost the bush 1 administration it's second chance.

 

[AA717driver]

TWA Dude--Sorry, I forgot, make that TWO Cacti's...

Actually, the one is a "native" AWA'er hired around '87 or '88. Former States West type. Blowhard. Backstabber. Slim... Oh well, if I say any more, I might as well give his name and SSN.

Take care, dude.TC

P.S.--How's married life treating you so far?

 

[BeCareful!]

Regarding growth, look at what has occured at PSA and with MDA over the past three years: Well over $1 billion invested in these entities, and all of it from U Group's financial maneuvering. It's not the kind of growth that pilots want, I know, but it's growth of the airline nontheless (not a windfall to Johnny O and the boys). And, that growth has taken place on the backs of U labor.

In other words, I think in terms of aricraft aquistions U has "grown" much more over the past three years. Unfortunately, management won big time by making sure those aircraft provided jobs that were low-paying. Either way, it was growth, it was just a different aircraft type being invested in; leave it to U management to figure out how to grow their system and screw the pilots at the same time And all the while, doing a great job of hiding the money.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Regarding growth, look at what has occured at PSA and with MDA over the past three years: Well over $1 billion invested in these entities, and all of it from U Group's financial maneuvering. It's not the kind of growth that pilots want, I know, but it's growth of the airline nontheless (not a windfall to Johnny O and the boys). And, that growth has taken place on the backs of U labor.

In other words, I think in terms of aricraft aquistions U has "grown" much more over the past three years. Unfortunately, management won big time by making sure those aircraft provided jobs that were low-paying. Either way, it was growth, it was just a different aircraft type being invested in; leave it to U management to figure out how to grow their system and screw the pilots at the same time And all the while, doing a great job of hiding the money.

Mesa grew at our expense. What's your point?? Who cares where the money came from?

 

[Cactus73]

Plus, it is beyond me why any pilot stayed at America West a few years ago. Half my class was Amreica West in 1997. They where the lowest payed pilots by far, and those who stayed where the drunks and people the majors did not want.
America West, an airline with a history with Bankruptcys is now suddenly a great airline. I do not think so. Treat the AAA pilots with respect. cheers
Marty

This is quite possibly the most f'd up thing ever said on this board. I've only been at AWA for a little over two years and almost all the guys I have flown with are absolutely first rate awesome guys (and gals). They aren't drunks and they definitely aren't the leftovers that the majors didn't want. People stay at airlines for various reasons. Most don't want to lose their base, seniority, friends, etc...They ride it out and see where it takes them. And yes, some were turned down by the likes of United and Northwest, and Delta. Who ever made the hiring committees at these airlines the ultimate authority on who is a great pilot? I could argue that what makes our pilot group so great is that we are NOT Delta or United.

That being said, I think that it is time we put the seniority arguments behind us. I'm just as guilty as I've responding to posts on this thread and others. You will never change Learloves or BeCareful's positions and you will probably never change mine.

Now that the PID has been set, this is all out of our hands. NO seniority descisions have been made but these two committees have full autonomy to decide the new list and to leave it to an arbitrator if a fair compromise cannot be negotiated with the help of a mediator.

More important to me right now is to see my airline, US Airways, succeed and kick some major a##. We are all together in this (whether we like it or not) and I for one cannot afford for this merger to fail. I both like and need my job. I'm sorry but I don't have a side business that can readily replace my income and quality of life (my fault, I know).

We need to get together and hold managements feet to the fire and deliver what they have promised last May when this was first announced. We need profitabilty and growth so we all have jobs, recalls, and upgrades.

Let's put some time and effort where we can make a difference. The enemy is not us.

rant off.

 

[MCDU]

Cactus73, I agree with your post. You sound like a nice guy. Just wanted to get a feel on how some guys would react. Like the one who said 90% at USair are idiots. By the way, United as well as US Airways Group have not really schrunk, they just gave the flying to someone else. USAir and United fly the same or even more people, then they did prior BK.

Marty

 

[BeCareful!]

Mesa grew at our expense. What's your point?? Who cares where the money came from?

The point is that U group was doing quite well in spite of showing continued losses, and that no matter how many times your camp posts on flightinfo.com that US Airways was on its last legs, it doesn't make it true.

Further, I CARE WHERE THE MONEY CAME FROM! It matters, because growth and aircraft aquisitions are an indicator of an airline's financial health. With your camp running around acting like Doug dipped into petty cash and up and bought US Airways, it seems pertinent to point out that that's hogwash, don't you think? The money came from outside investors, many of whom were already invested in US Airways Group.

In the end, I just want to see the airline succeed. Let's just drop the whole thing and work to see the company do well. None of this is helping, for sure.

 

[BeCareful!]

Put another way, flyinhigh, if AWA had recently spent over $1billion on RJ's and kept your balance sheet firmly in the red, would it matter then if in a merger scenario the other side was pointing out to you how sick your airline looked in terms of losses posted? I think it would.

 

[PHXFLYR]

This is quite possibly the most f'd up thing ever said on this board. I've only been at AWA for a little over two years and almost all the guys I have flown with are absolutely first rate awesome guys (and gals). They aren't drunks and they definitely aren't the leftovers that the majors didn't want. People stay at airlines for various reasons. Most don't want to lose their base, seniority, friends, etc...They ride it out and see where it takes them. And yes, some were turned down by the likes of United and Northwest, and Delta. Who ever made the hiring committees at these airlines the ultimate authority on who is a great pilot? I could argue that what makes our pilot group so great is that we are NOT Delta or United.

That being said, I think that it is time we put the seniority arguments behind us. I'm just as guilty as I've responding to posts on this thread and others. You will never change Learloves or BeCareful's positions and you will probably never change mine.

Now that the PID has been set, this is all out of our hands. NO seniority descisions have been made but these two committees have full autonomy to decide the new list and to leave it to an arbitrator if a fair compromise cannot be negotiated with the help of a mediator.

More important to me right now is to see my airline, US Airways, succeed and kick some major a##. We are all together in this (whether we like it or not) and I for one cannot afford for this merger to fail. I both like and need my job. I'm sorry but I don't have a side business that can readily replace my income and quality of life (my fault, I know).

We need to get together and hold managements feet to the fire and deliver what they have promised last May when this was first announced. We need profitabilty and growth so we all have jobs, recalls, and upgrades.

Let's put some time and effort where we can make a difference. The enemy is not us.


rant off.

Cactus ...

I don't think it was a rant. but rather an excellent post .



PHXFLYR

 

[vetrider]

AWA/US Airways pilot seniority integration

Cactus73, I agree with your post. You sound like a nice guy. Just wanted to get a feel on how some guys would react. Like the one who said 90% at USair are idiots. By the way, United as well as US Airways Group have not really schrunk, they just gave the flying to someone else. USAir and United fly the same or even more people, then they did prior BK.

Marty

Retracted due to my stupidity.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

On the surface i'd agree with you. I would expect the USAirways MEC to sacrifice the furloughees in exchange for better integration. They have a history of screwing the junior folks.

This is right on. Finally some true info on the subject.

I am getting tired of reading the rest.
It is up to the arbitrator. It doesn't matter who bought who.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, I do not work for USAir.

Settle down
I guess u bit the bait.

Marty

Wait a second Marty. All the BS you write on this board about the westies, and you don't even work for US Airways?

Just thought I'd drag this out for all the westies to see just how much of a POS this kid is.

 

[TWA Dude]

Judge has ruled. No injunction but a speedy trial date within three months.

IMO this is the best we could've anticipated.