Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
MCDU said:
Do you think United pilots on furlough would except a staple job in event of a merger with Continental behind all their new hires. I do not think so. Same as with any other pilot group.
US Airways, Delta, Northwest pilots should also not accept their furloughed alpa pilots to be stapled behind new hires.

Marty

Who cares what United, Delta, or xyz airlines' furloufgs expect? They are not in this fight. Besides, your comment is pure speculation. You have no idea what another airlines' pilot group would expect. Not to mention its completely pompous.

To say that a furlough should take away seniority from an active pilot is mind blowing.

So your arguement is "well, I am pretty sure that United and Delta pilots would not accept a staple of their furloughs so we shouldn't either". This sounds like a joke. My arguement completely desroys yours (see previous post).

If my bankrupt airline was being aquired by a non bankrupt airline and I was furloughed I would absolutely expect to be stapled. I wouldn't like it but that is what I would expect.
 
Upon reading this thread, I hope & pray that United NEVER EVER merges with another carrier.

Good luck to all effected. One thing's guaranteed; both sides will think that they've been screwed and that the other side got a great deal.
 
Well, I have nothing to do with this merger, but I would think that a USAir pilot with a hire date in 1989 with almost 15yrs at US Airways would not be put behind some America West pilot hired in the last few years. America West will have their fences.
They could just fence of the whole East with 200 plus airframes for 25 years and then you could staple thge AAA pilots.
That is just me looking from the outside.


Marty
 
Just a point of clarification:

IF the furloughed pilots were integrated (rather than stapled) into the combined seniority list...

It is my understanding that those currently furloughed would REMAIN on furlough-status regardless of where their new seniority falls.

Once there was a need for recall, and that pilot accepted a recall, he would then accept his position on the seniority list (and bound by applicable fences) for bidding purposes.

Right?

So an active AWA pilot would not be sacrificed (furloughed) in order to bring back a furloughed pilot.

Or am I out in left field?
 
Everyone should be looking at this from a financial position.

If their is a staple of USAir above all AWA pilots, you better expect lower wages. Their is no way management is going to allow the training department to be tied up for two to three years with upgrades, bumps and rebumps. Believe guys would be rebidding for up to a year on equipment. Ask UAL guys how the bids went after 9/11. It took a year or so to finish all the training.

Now if you think that training does not come at a cost you are mistaken. Management would view this as a significant cost and I would imagine look to cut costs in the contract somewhere else, whether it be wages or retirement or workrules.

Parker, the CEO, stated no large cash outlays. I really don't think he is going to allow 10 to 20 year fences to exist, like NWA did, because this is cost prohibitive. Parker wants to realize his syngery costs as soon as possible.

Secondly, my understanding is when the arbitrator looks at the seniority intergration he looks at who currently on the list. Not who is on furlough. Guys were even told at UAL, that if a merger took place while pilots were still on furlough, chances are they would not have a job. Not to say things can't be worked out, but its tough. So why any pilot from any airline, whether it be DAL, AMR, UAL or any other one, would think they are entitled to a job because they are on furlough is beside me. You are not on property, management does not care. They just soon hire new people for cheaper wages.

Lastly, it is also my understanding that USAir does have a portion of their list of pilots in their 40's, that are active. Thus even in a reality seniority issue they would make captain. Next, most guys that were hired at USAir in the 89 or so era, have spent more time on furlough from USAir then they have actively spent flying. Why a guy who spent 8 years on furlough from USAir, go back and get refurloughed would ever want to go back to the company is beyond me. Furlough me once shame on you, furlough me twice shame on me.

The final word, I got news for everyone. Nobody really knows if this merger is really going to be successful or not. NObody really knows if the company will still exist in 20 years or not. With the way the work groups are fighting currently,both sides, I can't imagine having mixed crews in the cockpit. I can only say I am sure if will be interesting, no matter how this intergration happens. Once the merger lists come out, I guarantee not every pilot is going to be happy and this disagreement will carry over into the cockpit. We are humans and are emotions run.

I say good luck to everyone. I hope for the best, and keep all options open.
 
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Marty
 
Last edited:
Well, for those of you ill informed. There are a few hundred pilots on furlough at US Airways that have worked there for 15 yrs and held Captain positions.

One of my best friends was a Metro Jet Capt. and this is his first furlough. Get the facts.

Plus, it is beyond me why any pilot stayed at America West a few years ago. Half my class was Amreica West in 1997. They where the lowest payed pilots by far, and those who stayed where the drunks and people the majors did not want.
America West, an airline with a history with Bankruptcys is now suddenly a great airline. I do not think so. Treat the AAA pilots with respect.


cheers
Marty
 
The key point to the furloughee question is contractural. If the company isn't legally bound to honor recalls, then you can bet they're not going to. The next question is if U ALPA is going to cut the furloughees adrift for good. My guess is they will, if past performance is any indicator.
 
Draginass,

On the surface i'd agree with you. I would expect the USAirways MEC to sacrifice the furloughees in exchange for better integration. They have a history of screwing the junior folks.

But then I wonder. If 1900 pilots sue ALPA for duty of fair representation / breach of contract... would they have any chance?

I'm guessing Mike Haber (the clown running the RJDC lawsuit) would take that case on contingency. 1900 pilots with 15-30 years remaining before mandatory retirement. That's about 1.8 million per pilot (figuring 80,000/yr average over 23 years) or around 34 billion dollars.
 
MCDU said:
Well, for those of you ill informed. There are a few hundred pilots on furlough at US Airways that have worked there for 15 yrs and held Captain positions.

One of my best friends was a Metro Jet Capt. and this is his first furlough. Get the facts.

Plus, it is beyond me why any pilot stayed at America West a few years ago. Half my class was Amreica West in 1997. They where the lowest payed pilots by far, and those who stayed where the drunks and people the majors did not want.
America West, an airline with a history with Bankruptcys is now suddenly a great airline. I do not think so. Treat the AAA pilots with respect.


cheers
Marty

MCDU,

F*ck you. I have never cast insults at the AAA pilot group. Where do you get off calling us the drunks and the rejects that other majors didn't want? I'll put my flying abilities and knowledge up against yours anyday.

If there is anyone out there not treating the AAA pilots with respect it is most likely because of loudmouths like you. And I'm sure that the only one who gets "ripped on" is you.

Your best friend was a MetroJet Captain? That's great. What's your point??

Yeah, AWA was the lowest paid group at one point...and AAA was the highest paid at one point. Now we are making more than you. We are moving forward while you are moving backwards. Since you seem to associate pay with respectability I'd say that your argument will bite you in the butt.

It is beyond you why any pilot stayed at AWA back in th day??? Funny you should use this arguement because it is beyond me why any pilot would stay at AAA today (or at least until AWA aquired AAA).

I'll bet all those AWA guys who left to go to AAA are wishing they hadn't.

History of bankruptcies??? Have you read anything about the airline you come from??? The reason AWA aquired US Airways is because you were in bankruptcy...not us. Who cares if AWA was in bankruptcy 13 years ago. What bearing does that have now???

Your arguments have no foundation. You're just venting a bunch of emotional bable.
 
Dude, I do not work for USAir.

Settle down
I guess u bit the bait.

Marty
 
MCDU said:
Well, for those of you ill informed. There are a few hundred pilots on furlough at US Airways that have worked there for 15 yrs and held Captain positions.

One of my best friends was a Metro Jet Capt. and this is his first furlough. Get the facts.

Plus, it is beyond me why any pilot stayed at America West a few years ago. Half my class was Amreica West in 1997. They where the lowest payed pilots by far, and those who stayed where the drunks and people the majors did not want.
America West, an airline with a history with Bankruptcys is now suddenly a great airline. I do not think so. Treat the AAA pilots with respect.


cheers
Marty

Drunks and the people the majors did not want? I guess, if the allmighty Marty says so.
 
FurloughedAgain said:
Just a point of clarification:

IF the furloughed pilots were integrated (rather than stapled) into the combined seniority list...

It is my understanding that those currently furloughed would REMAIN on furlough-status regardless of where their new seniority falls.

Once there was a need for recall, and that pilot accepted a recall, he would then accept his position on the seniority list (and bound by applicable fences) for bidding purposes.

Right?

So an active AWA pilot would not be sacrificed (furloughed) in order to bring back a furloughed pilot.

Or am I out in left field?




That is correct. You will receive a new senority number via arbitration (thank your Merger Committe for that one)you will remain on furlough status and as openings
occur,you will get recalled and slotted in at whatever your senority can hold.But then again,I am not the arbitrator.


PHXFLYR
 
Last edited:
FurloughedAgain said:
Draginass,
On the surface i'd agree with you. I would expect the USAirways MEC to sacrifice the furloughees in exchange for better integration. They have a history of screwing the junior folks.

But then I wonder. If 1900 pilots sue ALPA for duty of fair representation / breach of contract... would they have any chance?
Whew! Getting through the last few messages was tough. Looks like "Marty" needs to get off the sauce.

In respect to DFR, I don't think any union owes DFR or any other contractual obligation to furloughed pilots. So the AAA MEC can pretty much do what it wants to the furloughees. A lawsuit could be a pretty tough sell.
 
Draginass said:
If the company isn't legally bound to honor recalls, then you can bet they're not going to.
This has already been set in stone by the Transition Agreement. All furloughees will be offered recall when the time comes.
The next question is if U ALPA is going to cut the furloughees adrift for good.
I think U ALPA is fighting pretty hard for them so far. I don't expect that to change.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom